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Islam and Violence


 invite response                
2007 Sep 11, 1:35am   612,675 views  2,893 comments

by resistance   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

Originally from http://www.faithfreedom.org/

A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins

Dear friends,

The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!

What most Muslims will say:

Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.

What knowledgeable Muslims should say:

That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.

What the Qur'an Teaches Us:

We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).

The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).

He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.

Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.

Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.

We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.

Arabic translation الترجمة العربية

See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.

Please copy this article, and distribute it as widely as possible, both online and physically. The future of humanity depends on it.

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295   Dan8267   2015 Apr 6, 10:23pm  

socal2 says

Dan8267 says

Most abortions are performed chemically, such as by using the RU-486 pill.

Wrong.

Tell that to the American Life League who posted this graph.

socal2 says

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilation_and_curettag

Only idiots quote Wikipedia, especially on political issues. It's as accurate as Fox News.

socal2 says

Ha! So rich hearing Dan complaining about "poisoning the well" when he accuses pro-life people wanting to rape women.

I never said pro-life people wanted to rape women. You are just outright lying now.

What I said was that the Christian right backed Republican Party in Iowa tried to pass a law requiring women to get raped via trans-vaginal ultrasound before getting an abortion in order to effectively force them not to get one. I stand by that statement. If you want to argue the issue, go ahead. I look forward to making you look even more foolish.

socal2 says

You are a joke. You have to know that - right?

Translation: I have no more arguments.

296   Dan8267   2015 Apr 6, 10:26pm  

SoftShell says

There are tens of thousands of vaginal ultrasounds performed annually, with the patients consent.

The key word there is with consent.

To force a woman to have such an exam in order to have an abortion is to remove consent. And thus, by the legal definition used by the Department of Justice and the FBI, it is rape. That is simply a fact no matter how you try to twist the situation.

Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.

The bill requiring women to subject themselves to that procedure had absolutely NO medical purpose. It was strictly intended to humiliate and dehumanize the women seeking abortions. That is why the Democrat-controlled state senate defeated the bill.

297   Dan8267   2015 Apr 6, 10:39pm  

SoftShell says

Choosing to obey or not obey the law of the land is not 'coercion' you dumb shit.

And your statement doesn't apply to the bill forcing women to have trans-vaginal ultrasounds, you dumb shit. That bill was struck down because it was clearly a rape bill.

Quite a few red states tried passing these rape laws and they were called out in the media as state rape laws. In fact, the Journal of Criminal and Law and Criminology, Volume 103, Issue 4, Fall 2013 published an article, Humiliation, Degradation, Penetration: What Legislatively Required Pre-Abortion Transvaginal Ultrasounds and Rape Have in Common

A doctor reacted to this kind of legislation by saying, “I do not feel that it is reactionary or even inaccurate to describe an unwanted, non-indicated transvaginal ultrasound as ‘rape.’ If I insert ANY object into ANY orifice without informed consent, it is rape. And coercion of any kind negates consent, informed or otherwise.”

A Virginia state legislator considering such a bill said, “What’s before us is akin to rape.” A rape victim expressed her thoughts in a recent blog post, The State of Virginia About to Rape Women, Legally: “I have been a victim of rape, so I don’t use the word lightly, but there’s no other way to put it.”

So, you Shrek, you asshole, are going to say that an actual rape victim is full of shit when she equates the force trans-vaginal ultrasounds to rape just like the FBI and Dept. of Justice do?

298   Y   2015 Apr 7, 7:03am  

Yeah...Shrek, you asshole...where are you, you pussy! Say something!

what's this? Shrek in bed with the libbys? Nuff said..

Dan8267 says

So, you Shrek, you asshole,

299   HydroCabron   2015 Apr 7, 7:49am  

indigenous says

In Iraq and Afghanistan 6000 American soldiers were killed to 250,000 civilians.

The nice thing about Christianity is that it doesn't make killing the infidels a policy, so Christians can feel better about themselves. I'm sure just as many Christians spoke up about the slaughter of innocent people in Iraqistan as moderate Muslims do about terrorism. That is: not a whole lot.

The only thing I like about radical Islam is that they're honest about this one thing: killing as policy. American Christians tell themselves "The government did it to make us safer - I don't favor killing innocent people.

300   Strategist   2015 Apr 7, 7:59am  

thunderlips11 says

And Strategist, I mean who blamed the Vatican and the Pope for the IRA and ETA?

I'm not sure what role the Vatican played with regards to IRA and ETA. If they did not get blamed, they may not have anything to do with them.
As for Pope John Paul, I liked the guy. Not necessarily his views, but the man was peaceful. Wasn't it him who admitted after 400 years that the Church screwed up on Galileo?

301   Strategist   2015 Apr 7, 8:01am  

HydroCabron says

indigenous says

In Iraq and Afghanistan 6000 American soldiers were killed to 250,000 civilians.

The nice thing about Christianity is that it doesn't make killing the infidels a policy, so Christians can feel better about themselves. I'm sure just as many Christians spoke up about the slaughter of innocent people in Iraqistan as moderate Muslims do about terrorism. That is: not a whole lot.

The only thing I like about radical Islam is that they're honest about this one thing: killing as policy. American Christians tell themselves "The government did it to make us safer - I don't favor killing innocent people.

We did not kill any innocent civilians.

302   HydroCabron   2015 Apr 7, 8:04am  

Strategist says

Wasn't it him who admitted after 400 years that the Church screwed up on Galileo?

The low standards for Pope John Paul II continue to amuse. Admitting the Earth orbits the Sun after only 400 years? So brave!

Hey, look! He smiled and waved! What a great man - sure he swept sex abuse under the rug, and was a Neanderthal reactionary, but he was anti-communist and he had a nice smile!

Strategist says

I'm not sure what role the Vatican played with regards to IRA and ETA.

One point here is that these are the standards to which Muslims are held. If ISIS blows up a lunch counter in Aleppo, Muslims from Indonesia to Burbank are thought to share the guilt. This is bullshit, just as it's bullshit to blame the Pope for the actions of the IRA.

303   indigenous   2015 Apr 7, 8:16am  

HydroCabron says

The nice thing about Christianity is that it doesn't make killing the infidels a policy, so Christians can feel better about themselves. I'm sure just as many Christians spoke up about the slaughter of innocent people in Iraqistan as moderate Muslims do about terrorism. That is: not a whole lot.

The only thing I like about radical Islam is that they're honest about this one thing: killing as policy. American Christians tell themselves "The government did it to make us safer - I don't favor killing innocent people.

Agreed.

However the US is as much of a warmonger as the terrorists ever were, they haven't gotten close to 250,000 people in just Iraqistan. Yea we can and do buy into all of the bullshit reasons but they are bullshit.

The deal is if you don't give them a game the game becomes to get you, similiar to current Mexico, maybe the future US?

304   Strategist   2015 Apr 7, 8:18am  

HydroCabron says

Strategist says

I'm not sure what role the Vatican played with regards to IRA and ETA.

One point here is that these are the standards to which Muslims are held. If ISIS blows up a lunch counter in Aleppo, Muslims from Indonesia to Burbank are thought to share the guilt. This is bullshit, just as it's bullshit to blame the Pope for the actions of the IRA.

No, I don't blame all the Muslims for Islamic terrorists attacks. I blame Islam, the breeding grounds for terrorism.

305   Dan8267   2015 Apr 7, 8:19am  

Dan8267 says

So, you Shrek, you asshole, are going to say that an actual rape victim is full of shit when she equates the force trans-vaginal ultrasounds to rape just like the FBI and Dept. of Justice do?

SoftShell says

...talk about changing the subject.

306   Dan8267   2015 Apr 7, 8:24am  

Strategist says

We did not kill any innocent civilians.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/73-GmF_ZnJo

America has a long and disgusting history of killing innocent civilians from the mass genocides of Native Americans, to the murder of slaves to keep others in line, to performing lethal medical experiments on blacks, to torture centers like Gitmo, to drone bombing of innocent children including targeting underage innocent civilians.

Whitewashing history is not patriotic. It is the most unpatriotic thing you can do. The first step to solving a problem is acknowledging its existence, and to deny the truth of history is to doom our country to repeating its past mistakes. So to whitewash history is to harm the future of America.

307   indigenous   2015 Apr 7, 8:28am  

Dan8267 says

So to whitewash history is to harm the future of America.

And what of the pernicious truths you don't know that you don't know? They have been whitewashed as well, they are hiding in plain sight.

308   Strategist   2015 Apr 7, 8:30am  

Dan8267 says

America has a long and disgusting history of killing innocent civilians from the mass genocides of Native Americans, to the murder of slaves to keep others in line, to performing lethal medical experiments on blacks,

I acknowledge it's existence. Hey, don't blame me, I wasn't even born then.

Dan8267 says

to torture centers like Gitmo

I acknowledge that. Hope it hurt, I'm glad. :)

Dan8267 says

drone bombing of innocent children including targeting underage innocent civilians.

I do not acknowledge bullshit.

309   Dan8267   2015 Apr 7, 10:00am  

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

America has a long and disgusting history of killing innocent civilians from the mass genocides of Native Americans, to the murder of slaves to keep others in line, to performing lethal medical experiments on blacks,

I acknowledge it's existence. Hey, don't blame me, I wasn't even born then.

I blame you for misinforming people of history, both long past and recent. And yes, you were born before Gitmo and drone attacks, so you statement is an outright lie.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

to torture centers like Gitmo

I acknowledge that. Hope it hurt, I'm glad. :)

Which is why you are evil. It would be evil to torture even the guilty, but there were many innocent people tortured and killed at Gitmo. Some people were sent there because some neighbor with a grudge over sheep lied about them being terrorists.

What about the 22 Uighurs who spent years in Gitmo despite being innocent of any crimes? Are you glad they were hurt as well?

Not only are you morally bankrupt, but you are a fool as well. The only way to protect your rights and your family is to protect everyone else. If our government can torture foreigners, it can torture its own citizens. Don't believe that your white skin will save you. The government has no qualms about murdering innocent white people or torturing them. 8 out of 10 infamous wrongful executions were of white men. Your skin offers you no protection.

So if only for selfish reasons, you should oppose the guilty until proven innocent beyond any doubt policy you currently embraced. It is inevitable that it will be used against some of your descendants.

310   Dan8267   2015 Apr 7, 10:02am  

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

drone bombing of innocent children including targeting underage innocent civilians.

I do not acknowledge bullshit.

Whether or not you acknowledge a fact does not change that it is a fact.

The Drone That Killed My Grandson

I LEARNED that my 16-year-old grandson, Abdulrahman — a United States citizen — had been killed by an American drone strike from news reports the morning after he died.

The missile killed him, his teenage cousin and at least five other civilians on Oct. 14, 2011, while the boys were eating dinner at an open-air restaurant in southern Yemen.

I visited the site later, once I was able to bear the pain of seeing where he sat in his final moments. Local residents told me his body was blown to pieces. They showed me the grave where they buried his remains. I stood over it, asking why my grandchild was dead.

Nearly two years later, I still have no answers. The United States government has refused to explain why Abdulrahman was killed. It was not until May of this year that the Obama administration, in a supposed effort to be more transparent, publicly acknowledged what the world already knew — that it was responsible for his death.

Facts are a bitch aren't they?

311   indigenous   2015 Apr 7, 10:07am  

Strategist says

I do not acknowledge bullshit

As much as I hate to agree with Dan, he is right on this.

312   socal2   2015 Apr 7, 10:23am  

HydroCabron says

One point here is that these are the standards to which Muslims are held. If ISIS blows up a lunch counter in Aleppo, Muslims from Indonesia to Burbank are thought to share the guilt. This is bullshit, just as it's bullshit to blame the Pope for the actions of the IRA.

Really? Muslims around the world have been made to share the guilt of the hundreds of thousands of Muslims (and Christians, Jews, Hindus, Yazidis, Kurds and Secularists) killed by radical Islam over the last 20 years?

Seems to me America and Israel are the ones blamed for nearly every act of Islamist violence as we can see easily with the comments in this thread.

Case in point, Iraqis and foreign jihadis are responsible for the vast majority of the deaths in Iraq since 2003. Since the fall of Saddam, we have former Baathists and Sunni ISIS types blowing up Shiite shrines and using power drills on children trying to kill their way back into power. All the while Shiites with Iran's help are doing revenge attacks and ethnically cleansing Sunni villages.

But Western dopes in America and Europe are perfectly happy to ape jihadi propaganda and simply say "America killed 250,000 civilians in Iraq" totally discounting the actions of the human beings living in Iraq doing the actual killing.

313   socal2   2015 Apr 7, 10:33am  

Dan8267 says

America has a long and disgusting history of killing innocent civilians from the mass genocides of Native Americans, to the murder of slaves to keep others in line, to performing lethal medical experiments on blacks, to torture centers like Gitmo, to drone bombing of innocent children including targeting underage innocent civilians.

Who ever said America is perfect? We are just better than everyone else who have been major players shaping our world over the last 100+ years.

Do you really want to compare America's history and CONTRIBUTIONS to human rights and economic prosperity to that of Russia, China, UK, France, Germany, Japan.........let alone the Muslim/Arab world? It is not even remotely a close call.

We have some warts for sure, but the proof is in the pudding in that since America became the lone superpower - the world has seen an unprecedented reduction in war, violence, genocide and poverty.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21578665-nearly-1-billion-people-have-been-taken-out-extreme-poverty-20-years-world-should-aim
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/22/world-less-violent-stats_n_1026723.html

That said, world violence is starting to creep back up now since America under Obama has been pulling back our influence around the world and emptying out GITMO.

314   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 7, 10:54am  

socal2 says

That said, world violence is starting to creep back up now since America under Obama has been pulling back our influence around the world and emptying out GITMO.

Yeah, I mean, Benghazi, Assad, Yemen, arms to Dillweed Nazis. Obama is just ignoring the world.

315   socal2   2015 Apr 7, 11:05am  

thunderlips11 says

Yeah, I mean, Benghazi, Assad, Yemen, arms to Dillweed Nazis. Obama is just ignoring the world.

Is that directed at me? I am the last one who can defend Obama, Hillary and Kerry's foreign policy. These guys can't get anything right. I just hope we can ride out the next 2 years without more damage.

- Pulled every last troop out of Iraq letting the Region fall to chaos
- Overthrew Qaddafi leaving a massive void and adding to the chaos
- Pressured Mubarak out - then supported the Muslim Brotherhood - only to watch the Muslim Bros get kicked out again
- Ignored the Iranian Green Revolution to suck up to the Mullahs - now letting the Mullahs get nukes
- Dismissed ISIS as the "JV team" and watched them take over city after city
- Issued "red line" threats to Syria and failed to back it up
- Tried a lame "reset" with Russia only to watch Putin invade Eastern Europe and shoot down civilian airliners
- Sucking up to Erdogan
- Alienating Israel

Simply put - there is really is not one corner of the planet that is better off today after 6 years of Obama's foreign policies of pulling back and spasmodically striking out here and there. No coherence or vision at all.

316   Dan8267   2015 Apr 7, 12:38pm  

socal2 says

Who ever said America is perfect?

No one, not even me. My response was to strategist's ridiculous lie, "We did not kill any innocent civilians."

Now what you are doing is presenting a false dichotomy that we must white wash our history and pretend America is the greatest and most moral nation ever or completely abandon our country and turn it over to communist, jihadists, witches, cthulhu, or whatever the boogie man of the day is. That is a false choice. We should acknowledge our nation's past evil deeds to make sure they never happen again in any form. That is true patriotism.

socal2 says

We are just better than everyone else who have been major players shaping our world over the last 100+ years.

Bullshit. America committed multiple genocides, had slavery, apartheid (although we called it "segregation"), lynchings, state-sanctioned violence against gays and ethnic minorities, forced sterilization, lethal medical experiments on innocent civilians, literal highway robbery by police including kidnapping threats. We have the highest incarceration rate, the most violent police forces, and we still have state-sponsored slavery! We might not be any worse than the other empires of the past 100 years, but we're certainly not better. Arrogance isn't the same thing as moral high ground.

Again real patriotism is acknowledging this unpleasant truth so that we can change it. Those who deny the wrongdoings of our government and its populace are condoning those wrongdoings and subjecting future Americans to suffer the pains of the past. Whitewashing American history is the most Un-American thing you can do.

socal2 says

Do you really want to compare America's history and CONTRIBUTIONS to human rights and economic prosperity to that of Russia, China, UK, France, Germany, Japan.........let alone the Muslim/Arab world?

I have not done that. You are presenting a Straw Man argument. But if you want to go there, then there is nothing done by those countries that hasn't been done by America. Torture, rape, slavery, genocide have all been done by America. What's left that's worse?

In any case, my statements have been to refute the bullshit that America has always been the good guys. Our nation has yet to behave selflessly in the interest of the entire world. Instead of cheerleading America, how about you move this country in the direction of being the society you like to pretend it is. Right now America has an awesome opportunity to play the savior of the world and demonstrate the moral high ground for the first time in its history. All it has to do is take the lead in climate change policy. This is something that would benefit the entire world and would show selflessness on our part. Yet, somehow I doubt you'll support this. Utter hypocrisy. You want America to have the reputation of being the shining beacon of freedom and justice, but you don't want America to act like that.

socal2 says

That said, world violence is starting to creep back up now since America under Obama has been pulling back our influence around the world and emptying out GITMO.

G.W. Bush's illegal wars founded on lies created ISIS and the problems we are now having in the Middle East. We should have been building infrastructure in the Middle East instead of bombing it. The only way to defeat Islam is by educating the commoners, especially the women.

Oh, and by the way, Al-Qaeda, the people behind 9/11, were created by the Reagan administration in order to "give the Soviets their own Vietnam". Evil policies have a way of coming back to bite you in the ass.

317   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 7, 12:39pm  

socal2 says

- Pulled every last troop out of Iraq letting the Region fall to chaos

Exactly what the public wanted, except a minority of neocons. ISIS grew enormously with the Kerry-funded aid to "Pro-Democracy Rebels" in Syria.

socal2 says

- Overthrew Qaddafi leaving a massive void and adding to the chaos

McCain insisting there would be a bloodbath if we DIDN'T remove Ghaddafi. Bloodbath ensues, grows worse, puppet regime moves from Tripoli, besieged.
www.huffingtonpost.com/news/john-mccain-libya/
Kagan smelling Victory
http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/shores-tripoli_591420.html
"Lindsey Graham: Let's get in on the Ground"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/20/us-libya-idUSTRE79F1FK20111020

socal2 says

- Ignored the Iranian Green Revolution to suck up to the Mullahs - now letting the Mullahs get nukes

I thought Iran was supposed to have nukes 10 years ago?

LA Times, 2003 - Iran One Friedman Unit (FU)* away from Nukes
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/aug/04/world/fg-nuke4

Hot Air, 2008 - 1 FU to Nuke
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/06/22/video-elbaradei-says-iran-could-make-a-bomb-in-six-months-to-a-year/

CFR, 2010 quotes Neocon David Albright - 1 FU to Nuke
http://www.cfr.org/iran/strategy-iran/p21506
Funnily Enough, Albright works for "ISIS" - Institute for Science and International Security (MIC Think Tank, of course)

Hey, what happened to that Iraqi nuke, they were only 1 FU away from building in 1999, reported 60 Minutes:
http://www.nci.org/a/60min2-Iraq.htm

socal2 says

- Sucking up to Erdogan

You mean supporting a secular State and NATO Member? Horrible!

socal2 says

- Tried a lame "reset" with Russia only to watch Putin invade Eastern Europe and shoot down civilian airliners

You mean start a coup in Ukraine after Putin saved his ass in Iraq and Syria. Flankers and Russian weapons arrived to fight ISIS weeks before American ones did. The coup using Brownshirts as front line pawns is almost beyond neocon's wildest wet dreams. Victoria "Nurse Ratchet" Nuland, Robert Kagan's wife, was running the whole show.
socal2 says

- Dismissed ISIS as the "JV team" and watched them take over city after city

And it hardly needs to mentioned that many young Saudis decided to go on "vacation" in Syria, carrying gifts and weaponry in their luggage:

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/saudi-arabia/130312/saudi-youth-fighting-assad-regime-syria

Just like they vacationed in Iraq. Remember how long it took the Pentagon to ADMIT that the vast, vast majority of Foreign Fighters in Iraq were Saudi?

Saudi Arabia is easy to bomb. How come Obama and the Neocons don't advise it?

OH?
McCain, Liesberman and Graham call to arm Pro-democracy anti-Assad Forces ISIS in 2012.
http://thehill.com/policy/defense/211597-mccain-graham-call-for-us-to-arm-syrian-rebels

House Speaker John Boehner and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton today threw their weight behind President Obama's campaign to win support for military strikes against Syria ahead of a vote in Congress next week.

‘I'm going to support the president's call for action, and I believe my colleagues should support the president's call for action,’ said Boehner, an Ohio Republican.

‘The use of these weapons has to be responded to, and only the United States has the capability and the capacity to stop Assad and to warn others around the world that this type of behavior is not to be tolerated.’

Mrs. Clinton issued a statement late in the day, after a hearing concluded in the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which heard testimony from John Kerry, her successor at State.

'Secretary Clinton supports the President’s effort to enlist the Congress in pursuing a strong and targeted response to the Assad regime’s horrific use of chemical weapons,' a Clinton aide told Politico.

Eric Cantor, the number 2 House Republican, echoed Boehner hours earlier. He said: 'Understanding that there are differing opinions on both sides of the aisle, it is up to President Obama to make the case to Congress and to the American people that this is the right course of action, and I hope he is successful in that endeavor.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2410173/Obama-announces-congress-vote-Syrian-strikes-early-week-amid-claims-White-House-IS-planning-regime-change.html#ixzz3WebWCdmw

Republican Majority House, Bipartisan Senate votes for more Pro-Democracy Insurgent Aid ISIS Funding
http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/09/20/congress-votes-fight-isis-funding-isis-fight-assad/

- Alienating Israel.

Fuck Israel. Bibi hates Obama because Obama is only 90% his slave, instead of 100% like the Republicans.

*Six Months

318   socal2   2015 Apr 7, 2:06pm  

Dan8267 says

socal2 says

Do you really want to compare America's history and CONTRIBUTIONS to human rights and economic prosperity to that of Russia, China, UK, France, Germany, Japan.........let alone the Muslim/Arab world?

I have not done that. You are presenting a Straw Man argument. But if you want to go there, then there is nothing done by those countries that hasn't been done by America. Torture, rape, slavery, genocide have all been done by America. What's left that's worse?

Perhaps you should look into it to Dan.

And yes, America has done more than most countries combined in the 20th and 21st Centuries to feed the world, reduce poverty, keep the sea-lanes open for free trade, and provided unprecedented peace and security through our massive military commitments around the world.

Like I said, we aren't perfect - we are just the best.

319   socal2   2015 Apr 7, 2:11pm  

Dan8267 says

G.W. Bush's illegal wars founded on lies created ISIS

Dan8267 says

Oh, and by the way, Al-Qaeda, the people behind 9/11, were created by the Reagan administration

And there you have it. According to the deep thinking from Dan, Islam is not responsible for radical Islamists terrorism around the world,

Islamist terrorists were all created by Republicans!

So.........fucking.........dumb.......

Bgmall dumb!

Was Bush behind 9/11 too??

320   socal2   2015 Apr 7, 2:26pm  

thunderlips11 says

Exactly what the public wanted, except a minority of neocons.

And now the public wants to see boots back on the ground to fight ISIS. What does that tell you? Should American leadership run foreign policy by snap polls of the people who can't find half of these countries on a map?
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/232759-poll-americans-want-congress-to-pass-aumf

thunderlips11 says

McCain insisting there would be a bloodbath if we DIDN'T remove Ghaddafi. Bloodbath ensues, grows worse, puppet regime moves from Tripoli, besieged.

Pretty sure McCain and the "neocons" didn't want to leave a void in Libya, Iraq or Afghanistan after we booted out their psychopathic leaders. The chaos we are seeing in the Region today is largely due to the vacuums Obama created.

thunderlips11 says

You mean supporting a secular State and NATO Member? Horrible!

Turkey undergoing ‘authoritarian drift’ under Erdogan – HRW
http://rt.com/news/191444-turkey-human-rights-watch/

thunderlips11 says

Saudi Arabia is easy to bomb. How come Obama and the Neocons don't advise it?

For the same reason we are not bombing London, Paris or Germany for sending their Muslim fanatics to the Middle East to play jihad. All these countries have radical Imams radicalizing young Muslims.

321   Strategist   2015 Apr 7, 4:11pm  

Dan8267 says

Which is why you are evil. It would be evil to torture even the guilty, but there were many innocent people tortured and killed at Gitmo. Some people were sent there because some neighbor with a grudge over sheep lied about them being terrorists.

If you are a member of Al Qaeda you are guilty as hell. Let them prove their innocence, as American civil rights must not apply to them.

Dan8267 says

What about the 22 Uighurs who spent years in Gitmo despite being innocent of any crimes? Are you glad they were hurt as well?

Yup. Many Gitmo prisoners simply rejoined the terrorist groups when released. Even Baghdadi, the greatest ISIS terrorist was an American prisoner who was released. How did that work out?
Just shoot them.

Dan8267 says

I acknowledge it's existence. Hey, don't blame me, I wasn't even born then.

I blame you for misinforming people of history, both long past and recent. And yes, you were born before Gitmo and drone attacks, so you statement is an outright lie.

If you want to blame me for Gitmo and drone attacks, fine. I proudly take full credit.

Dan8267 says

Not only are you morally bankrupt, but you are a fool as well. The only way to protect your rights and your family is to protect everyone else.

By not protecting the rights of terrorists is how we can protect ourselves. Giving full protection and civil rights to these wack jobs would only make lawyers rich.

Dan8267 says

So if only for selfish reasons, you should oppose the guilty until proven innocent beyond any doubt policy you currently embraced. It is inevitable that it will be used against some of your descendants.

I disagree. Speeding is the only crime I have ever committed. My philosophy...don't hurt anyone and no one will hurt you.

322   Strategist   2015 Apr 7, 4:14pm  

Dan8267 says

he missile killed him, his teenage cousin and at least five other civilians on Oct. 14, 2011, while the boys were eating dinner at an open-air restaurant in southern Yemen.

I visited the site later, once I was able to bear the pain of seeing where he sat in his final moments. Local residents told me his body was blown to pieces. They showed me the grave where they buried his remains. I stood over it, asking why my grandchild was dead.

Nearly two years later, I still have no answers. The United States government has refused to explain why Abdulrahman was killed. It was not until May of this year that the Obama administration, in a supposed effort to be more transparent, publicly acknowledged what the world already knew — that it was responsible for his death.

Facts are a bitch aren't they?

What makes you think they were innocent? I'm glad they were blown up.

323   Strategist   2015 Apr 7, 4:21pm  

Dan8267 says

No one, not even me. My response was to strategist's ridiculous lie, "We did not kill any innocent civilians."

That statement is true. Innocent people getting killed in drone attacks is collateral damage. The blame goes to the terrorists we are trying to target, not to us.

Dan8267 says

socal2 says

We are just better than everyone else who have been major players shaping our world over the last 100+ years.

Bullshit. America committed multiple genocides, had slavery, apartheid (although we called it "segregation"), lynchings, state-sanctioned violence against gays and ethnic minorities, forced sterilization, lethal medical experiments on innocent civilians, literal highway robbery by police including kidnapping threats. We have the highest incarceration rate, the most violent police forces, and we still have state-sponsored slavery! We might not be any worse than the other empires of the past 100 years, but we're certainly not better. Arrogance isn't the same thing as moral high ground.

Quit harping on the past. We don't abuse human rights anymore, but some people do. Lets stop them. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

324   Dan8267   2015 Apr 7, 5:54pm  

socal2 says

Like I said, we aren't perfect - we are just the best.

Actually, we're 21st and Ireland is 1st and on promoting prosperity and equality we're an embarrassing 53rd considering we're the richest country in the world. You see, dummy, these things can and are actually measured. You can measure contributions to humanity and come up with objective rankings for everything. Just because you are a nationalist, someone who irrationally views his country as better than all others despite any evidence to the contrary, doesn't mean your whitewashing and quite frankly bigoted view of America is accepted by anyone else.

I strongly recommend that you read The Good Country Index thoroughly. It has great, detailed measurements of benevolent action.

Oh, and by the way, it's the Republican Party that wants to decrease what good-will America does abroad and replace it with constant warfare. So if you actually gave a shit about America being the good guy, you'd never vote Republican.

socal2 says

And there you have it. According to the deep thinking from Dan, Islam is not responsible for radical Islamists terrorism around the world,

Islamist terrorists were all created by Republicans!

Another bold-face lie by socal2. I never said anything remotely like Islam is not responsible for terrorism. Having to lie about your opponent's position and statements is the ultimate sign that your position is wrong.

What I said was that specific Republicans, Reagan and Bush, created specific terrorist groups, Al-Qaeda and ISIS respectively, as unintended consequences of their unethical and illegal actions. This is something you did not refute because you cannot. Reagan's support of Al-Qaeda (formally called Mujahideen) empowered this terrorist group and lead to 9/11. Reagan had no problem using terrorists to fight the Soviets, foolishly believing that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The problem with that philosophy is that once your first enemy is defeated, your "friend" becomes a greater enemy.

It is also indisputable that ISIS is the direct and predictable result of the power vacuum and chaos created by Bush's invasion of Iraq and deposing of Saddam Hussein as well as the death and destruction he spewed across the Middle East while doing so. Had Bush's invasion never happened, ISIS would not even exist today.

Furthermore, responsibility is always multiplied, never divided! Islam is 100% responsible for Islamic terrorists, and Republicans are also 100% responsible because they created these terrorists through their evil policies. Both are 100% responsible.

Most importantly, your white washing of America's role in creating terrorism only serves to harm our national interests, our safety, and our children. Acknowledging that specific bad policies, created by Republicans, have increased terrorism is absolutely critical to preventing future terrorist attacks. One must learn from mistakes or repeat them! Your denial of our government's role in creating terrorism ensures that our government will continue creating more. That makes you as dangerous as the terrorists themselves.

socal2 says

Was Bush behind 9/11 too??

No, but he is responsible for it. He received a report entitled Bin Laden determined to strike in US and choose to ignore it. That makes him criminally negligent.

If Clinton or Obama had let 9/11 happen on their watch, you'd be calling for their impeachment.

325   Dan8267   2015 Apr 7, 6:06pm  

Strategist says

If you are a member of Al Qaeda you are guilty as hell. Let them prove their innocence, as American civil rights must not apply to them.

You are an idiot. First, they weren't members of Al-Qaeda, you moron. Second, the American justice system should be upheld in all judicial proceedings regardless of the citizenship of the accused. Third, none of them were even accused of anything. They were simply held and torture without charges.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

What about the 22 Uighurs who spent years in Gitmo despite being innocent of any crimes? Are you glad they were hurt as well?

Yup. Many Gitmo prisoners simply rejoined the terrorist groups when released. Even Baghdadi, the greatest ISIS terrorist was an American prisoner who was released. How did that work out?

Just shoot them.

The Uighurs weren't terrorists and this was known for years. They were kept in Gitmo because the Bush administration couldn't figure out where to send them since China wouldn't take them back.

So you just proposed shooting completely innocent refugees. You deserve to see the same happen to your family.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

I acknowledge it's existence. Hey, don't blame me, I wasn't even born then.

I blame you for misinforming people of history, both long past and recent. And yes, you were born before Gitmo and drone attacks, so you statement is an outright lie.

If you want to blame me for Gitmo and drone attacks, fine. I proudly take full credit.

I blame you for lying as I said. However, your statement above shows how absolutely morally bankrupt Christians are. And some Christians, such as you, are every bit as bad as the most radical Muslim and for the exact same reason. You are a terrorist wannabe, but you don't have the balls to be one, so you play chicken-hawk armchair quarterbacking. Unfortunately, idiocy like yours only serves to compromise the safety and well-being of all Americans and the rest of the world by enabling the most retarded politicians to have their hands on the tools of war.

You are damn lucky your god doesn't exist. If it did, you'd be destined for hell.

Strategist says

By not protecting the rights of terrorists is how we can protect ourselves.

First, there is absolutely no evidence to back up that claim. Second, there is amble counter-evidence that shows committing atrocities only emboldens terrorists and helps terrorist recruiting. Third, in your complete disregard for the human rights of the guilty, you also disregard the human rights of the innocent. Following your philosophy, since some Americans are murderers, all Americans should be shot and killed and god can sort them out. You are truly despicable.

Strategist says

Dan8267 says

So if only for selfish reasons, you should oppose the guilty until proven innocent beyond any doubt policy you currently embraced. It is inevitable that it will be used against some of your descendants.

I disagree. Speeding is the only crime I have ever committed. My philosophy...don't hurt anyone and no one will hurt you.

Whether or not you agree is irrelevant. We've already seen that people who don't hurt anyone get hurt, even tortured and put to death, by the system you're advocating. The fact that you are mentally incapable of acknowledging an empirically demonstrated fact just illustrates how hopelessly stupid you are.

326   Dan8267   2015 Apr 7, 6:08pm  

Strategist says

What makes you think they were innocent? I'm glad they were blown up.

You are glad that innocent children, who had nothing to do with terrorism, were blown up. One day, it will be your children or grandchildren and some asshole in the Middle East will say he's glad they were blown up. You and he are basically the same person.

327   Dan8267   2015 Apr 7, 6:09pm  

Strategist says

We don't abuse human rights anymore

Your posts above demonstrate the opposite.

328   Strategist   2015 Apr 7, 6:58pm  

Dan8267 says

I blame you for lying as I said. However, your statement above shows how absolutely morally bankrupt Christians are. And some Christians, such as you, are every bit as bad as the most radical Muslim and for the exact same reason. You are a terrorist wannabe, but you don't have the balls to be one, so you play chicken-hawk armchair quarterbacking. Unfortunately, idiocy like yours only serves to compromise the safety and well-being of all Americans and the rest of the world by enabling the most retarded politicians to have their hands on the tools of war.

You are damn lucky your god doesn't exist. If it did, you'd be destined for hell.

I'm an atheist just like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Sam Harris. They are my heroes. My greatest hero is Charles Darwin. Just because I think Muslims are the real threat and not Christians does not make me a Christian. You think Christians are the real threat and not Muslims, which would make you a Muslim if I use your logic.
You called me an idiot, terrorist, murderer, torturer, liar, despicable, dangerous, destined for hell, my family will be shot, same as a radical Muslim. All in a single post.
this has got to be a Patnet record.

329   Strategist   2015 Apr 7, 7:06pm  

He was mean to me.

330   indigenous   2015 Apr 7, 7:07pm  

Strategist says

He was mean to me.

Get used to it, he is mean to me multiple times a day.

331   Strategist   2015 Apr 7, 7:09pm  

I'm sad.

332   Strategist   2015 Apr 7, 7:12pm  

indigenous says

Strategist says

He was mean to me.

Get used to it, he is mean to me multiple times a day.

I'm not the only one?

333   socal2   2015 Apr 7, 7:13pm  

Dan8267 says

Actually, we're 21st and Ireland is 1st and on promoting prosperity and equality we're an embarrassing 53rd considering we're the richest country in the world. You see, dummy, these things can and are actually measured.

The dumb - it hurts. So Ireland is #1 on your list? The same country that was fucking neutral against the Nazis in WWII and sympathetic to a number of Islamist terrorist groups in the 20th century. That Ireland? I am talking about the whole sweep of the 20th/21st century - not just an "average of 2010" to measure a country's contribution to mankind. America's contributions in liberating and protecting millions of South Koreans from Stalinist hell alone eclipses every good deed Ireland has done for other people in its history. The millions of Africans Bush saved from HIV in the last 10 years also eclipses Ireland's contribution to humanity outside their borders.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28605888/ns/world_news-africa/t/aids-battle-burnishes-bushs-legacy-africa/

Dan8267 says

What I said was that specific Republicans, Reagan and Bush, created specific terrorist groups, Al-Qaeda and ISIS respectively,

BTW - here is Jimmy Carter's National Security Advisor "Zbigniew Brzezinski" first meeting with the "Taliban" in 1979 and offering support to defeat the Communists. I guess in the hackish world of Dan - that means Democrats first created the Taliban?
https://www.youtube.com/embed/kYvO3qAlyTg

You seem to have pretty racist and white-man colonial thinking to assert that Islamic terrorists like Al Qaeda, Taliban and ISIS are just a bunch dumb animals cooked up in an American lab or something. They do have an ideology that goes back long before America's founding.

"The Islamic State is no mere collection of psychopaths. It is a religious group with carefully considered beliefs, among them that it is a key agent of the coming apocalypse."
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Dan8267 says

No, but he is responsible for it. He received a report entitled Bin Laden determined to strike in US and choose to ignore it. That makes him criminally negligent.

What pray tell was Bush to do with that super detailed intelligence? Prevent every Muslim citizen from flying? Shut down the airlines? Start droning Afghan wedding parties?

What a hack.

334   MisdemeanorRebel   2015 Apr 7, 7:43pm  

socal2 says

.

And now the public wants to see boots back on the ground to fight ISIS. What does that tell you? Should American leadership run foreign policy by snap polls of the people who can't find half of these countries on a map?

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/232759-poll-americans-want-congress-to-pass-aumf

Let me twist your logic back on you: You say most Americans are too dumb to find these countries on a map, but we should listen when the majority of these dumb Americans say they want some boots on the ground.

And just because Americans can't find these countries on a map, doesn't mean our leaders are correct. For example, have we received the free oil to pay the cost of the removal of Saddam and the Occupation of Iraq?

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