patrick.net

AdHominem says

NOMO is not a liberal, I’m not sure what to call him, but it he surely has a warped view of freedom. He claims that we are free to build our own roads, make our own money, etc…

I'd call him Nomo. A guy whose posts are intelligent, thoughtful, and pertinent. A guy with an acerbic wit who has the ability to make some random woman sneeze soda pop outta her nose on a regular basis. Why is it that you feel the need to label him as anything - and what in the world leads you to believe that your opinion of him matters to anyone but you? This is just another excuse to rant against the Man, and evokes memories of the liberal sixties. Kinda ironic, doncha think?

But assiging him, or any of us, your narrow definition of "liberal" or "conservo" or whatever else you dream up is a waste of time. This is a ridiculous thread - you need to get back on your meds and cut back on the caffeine.

Troy says

Rome wasn’t rebuilt in a day.

The saying is: "Rome wasn't built in a day." LOL

AdHominem says

Troy says

We wanted change, but change is coming slow.

aka there is no change

Because our arch-conservative friends dont want to make the current president look good we refute and denounce every piece of legistlation. That is why you and I are known as members of the PARTY OF NO.

AdHominem says

It is hard to justify an individuals obligation to an abstract conglomeration called society. So no.

Really? So you have no obligation to pay for police services, or the military? Or roads? Or courts? Serve as a juror?

You have no obligation to clothe yourself and otherwise behave in public to the moral standards of your society?

That's a rather extreme position to take. But I guess I'm not surprised.

simchaland says

Well, be patient. He’s waiting for Glenn Beck to call him to tell him the answers. You do know that that’s how it works with conservatives, right?

Nice try at generalizing. Unfortunately, you are totally wrong. I've never even seen Glenn Beck on TV being that I don't even own an idiot box. Give it another try. I'm sure you'll imagine something equally wrong.

Troy says

Norway, Germany, Sweden, Denmark — that’s more my speed.

Cherry picking I see. But lets look closer at your beloved Germany.

The debts of German states such as Berlin, Bremen or Sachsen-Anhalt are four to six times worse than California when you compare them to local GDP.
The cities are in tough shape. In North Rhine-Westphalia alone there are 19 cities fighting to avoid bankruptcy. The problem cities include Bochum and Dortmund, Essen and Duisburg. These areas are riddled with high unemployment, mounting social costs and plunging tax revenues. States are the first resort for bailouts for desperate city governments. As of 2020, all new borrowing by these states will cease in order to get a handle on the growing debt problems. No wonder the Germans are so stern with the greeks, they are in trouble themselves.

How liberal am I?

I'm SOOO LIBERAL that I can smile and tolerate a fair amount of guff from morons.

Leigh says

I’d like to see a post defining/discussing “compassionate conservative.”

Someone willing to start/fight a war or two, but otherwise generally liberal.

4X says

The problem with the right is that their issues are spoon fed to them. Out of control spending was never an issue under Bush.

Talk about spoon fed! the problem with the left is that they are equally "spoon fed" ideas, such as that generally speaking conservatives had no problem with Bush's spending.

Just curious... Since you describe Bush's spending as "out of control," do you also consider Obama's spending to be "out of control?" For the sake of not being "spoon fed" excuses or being one of the extreme fringes described in this thread, I certainly hope so, even though you might have to consider yourself a racist....

RayAmerica says

simchaland says

Well, be patient. He’s waiting for Glenn Beck to call him to tell him the answers. You do know that that’s how it works with conservatives, right?

Nice try at generalizing. Unfortunately, you are totally wrong. I’ve never even seen Glenn Beck on TV being that I don’t even own an idiot box. Give it another try. I’m sure you’ll imagine something equally wrong.

I would guess that he has not seen Glenn Beck either. I've found that most liberals who need to resort to blindly accusing conservatives of taking lines from talking heads, whether they know individual circumstances or not, are simply doing exactly the same thing... parrotting what the left talking heads tell them about anyone who has positions on the right. Folks in this thread are no different.

Para ...

Exactly. Even though I'm not a big fan of Rush Limbaugh, I have fun with the left when they invariably claim that "everything the big fat Limbaugh says is a lie." After hearing this claim, I always ask them to be specific and tell me a lie they've heard him utter. Always, and I do mean ALWAYS, I'm met with dead silence until they repeat the same bland "well, I mean everything he says is a lie, etc." My limited understanding of Beck is that he promotes governmental obedience to the U.S. Constitution. In the little minds that occupies the cavernous cranial region of the left's collective head, that is an extreme and radical concept.

RayAmerica says

Exactly. Even though I’m not a big fan of Rush Limbaugh, I have fun with the left when they invariably claim that “everything the big fat Limbaugh says is a lie.” After hearing this claim, I always ask them to be specific and tell me a lie they’ve heard him utter. Always, and I do mean ALWAYS, I’m met with dead silence until they repeat the same bland “well, I mean everything he says is a lie, etc.” My limited understanding of Beck is that he promotes governmental obedience to the U.S. Constitution. In the little minds that occupies the cavernous cranial region of the left’s collective head, that is an extreme and radical concept.

How about him moving to Costa Rica?

RayAmerica says

Para …
Exactly. Even though I’m not a big fan of Rush Limbaugh, I have fun with the left when they invariably claim that “everything the big fat Limbaugh says is a lie.” After hearing this claim, I always ask them to be specific and tell me a lie they’ve heard him utter. Always, and I do mean ALWAYS, I’m met with dead silence until they repeat the same bland “well, I mean everything he says is a lie, etc.” My limited understanding of Beck is that he promotes governmental obedience to the U.S. Constitution. In the little minds that occupies the cavernous cranial region of the left’s collective head, that is an extreme and radical concept.

Where are the death panels?

simchaland says

Where are the death panels?

Right now, in America you are free to buy or not buy health insurance. If you choose to buy health insurance, you agree to let someone else decide what treatment is covered. If you choose not to buy health insurance you are free to decide what treatment you will pay or not pay for.

Would you prefer that we nationalize health insurance or health care so that someone else makes decisions about your health?

Not very liberal of you is it?

Paralithodes says

4X says

The problem with the right is that their issues are spoon fed to them. Out of control spending was never an issue under Bush.

Talk about spoon fed! the problem with the left is that they are equally “spoon fed” ideas, such as that generally speaking conservatives had no problem with Bush’s spending.
Just curious… Since you describe Bush’s spending as “out of control,” do you also consider Obama’s spending to be “out of control?” For the sake of not being “spoon fed” excuses or being one of the extreme fringes described in this thread, I certainly hope so, even though you might have to consider yourself a racist….

That's not my quote...that is someone else response to another post. But YES, I do see Obama's spending as out of control. 8K tax credit, Cash for Clunkers, and Economic Recovery Act are useful tools that give an outer appearance of the government taking action however I am not sure we will know their actual effect until much later.

I do know the 8K tax credit has stabilized home prices temporarily, thereby making a new home purchase unattainable for millions of others in my same situation. I refuse to buy a 500k cottage when the same home was going for 100k 10 years ago. With inflation that home shouldnt be selling for more than 150-175K.

Paralithodes says

Leigh says

I’d like to see a post defining/discussing “compassionate conservative.”

Someone willing to start/fight a war or two, but otherwise generally liberal.

There is no such thing as a passionate conservative. Conservatives see our society as perfect and not in need of change, thereby leaving the poor to fend for themselves with "hard" work and "strong" effort. Conservatives do not take into consideration the emotional trauma that have been inflicted upon people during their childhood by their parents that lead people in the wrong direction in life.

I am a conservative-liberal and would cut off people from welfare after 2 years, require full time enrollment in college for welfare and support Arizona's enforcement of illegal immigration laws.

We have too much freedom and not enough responsibility.

AdHominem says

Right now, in America you are free to buy or not buy health insurance. If you choose to buy health insurance, you agree to let someone else decide what treatment is covered. If you choose not to buy health insurance you are free to decide what treatment you will pay or not pay for.
Would you prefer that we nationalize health insurance or health care so that someone else makes decisions about your health?

That is really a dumb post. Under all those scenarios, you are free to seek treatment or not--you have the ultimate control. The only difference is who pays for it.

In the first scenario--large profit maximizing companies decide whether or not to pay for your treatment. Or you can pay for it out of you pocket.

In the second scenario--you pay for everything out of your own pocket, assuming you can afford the treatments..

In the third scenario--it depends on which system would be implemented, but it would probably be Drs. deciding whether or not your treatment is covered. Or you could pay for it out of your pocket as in the other two scenarios.

Does that help your understanding AdHom?

liberal and conservative are pigeon hole categories, and i can't honestly see how any free thinking individual would allow themselves to be thrown into either hole, how about thinking for yourself for a 'change'

surfingerman says

liberal and conservative are pigeon hole categories, and i can’t honestly see how any free thinking individual would allow themselves to be thrown into either hole, how about thinking for yourself for a ‘change’

Careful - the Bobsey triplets will attack you and claim that you're nazi-like. Dunno why... must make them feel better about themselves.

every time i get called a nazi i wear it as a badge of honor, everything in the world is nazi apparently.. or so i have learned over the past few years

lets se, against illegal immigration.. nazi against soicalist health care.. nazi check, support govt health-care.. nazi check, obama bails out banks and corporations, nazi check, im more interested at this point at what isn't nazi , i don't think anyone knows

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Right now, in America you are free to buy or not buy health insurance. If you choose to buy health insurance, you agree to let someone else decide what treatment is covered. If you choose not to buy health insurance you are free to decide what treatment you will pay or not pay for.

Would you prefer that we nationalize health insurance or health care so that someone else makes decisions about your health?

The only difference is who pays for it.
In the first scenario–large profit maximizing companies decide whether or not to pay for your treatment. Or you can pay for it out of you pocket.
In the second scenario–you pay for everything out of your own pocket, assuming you can afford the treatments..
In the third scenario–it depends on which system would be implemented, but it would probably be Drs. deciding whether or not your treatment is covered. Or you could pay for it out of your pocket as in the other two scenarios.
Does that help your understanding AdHom?

Lets see if this helps your understanding tat:

like you said the only difference is who pays for it, but that makes all the difference doesn't it.

Under the third system the citizen's savings/earnings are involuntarily confiscated.

Not very liberal is it? How liberal are you?

AdHominem says

If you choose not to buy health insurance you are free to decide what treatment you will pay or not pay for.

What that actually means for the people who do not buy health insurance is that they are free to choose what treatment they pay for or what treatment they let everyone else pay for. That's the problem. If I knew that the people who didn't pay for health insurance weren't using mine instead, I wouldn't have a problem with the current system.

It's irresponsible to own and operate a body without health insurance just like it's irresponsible to own and operate a car without auto insurance.

Car drivers without auto insurance force others to pay for their accidents instead of being responsibly covered in the case of a wreck.

People without health insurance force others to pay for their injuries and illnesses instead of being responsibly covered in the case of illness or injury.

More to the point, we all have a 100% fatal disease. It's called "life" and everyone has an expiration date. It costs money to die. When you die without health insurance it costs the taxpayers and people left behind to treat you in your final moments and then dispose of your body properly. If you are a responsible person, you get insurance to prepare for the inevitable.

AdHominem says

Under the third system the citizen’s savings/earnings are involuntarily confiscated.

No they aren't. If the citizens elect officials who pass nationalized health care, then they've effectively made the choice to pay for healthcare... That's the way a republic works.

simchaland says

When you die without health insurance it costs the taxpayers and people left behind to treat you in your final moments and then dispose of your body properly. If you are a responsible person, you get insurance to prepare for the inevitable.

Health insurance doesn't pay for the disposal of a body after death, nor does healthcare reform require this be covered. Mortuaries usually serve community hospitals under a rotation basis- and if there's no other payment and for whatever reason the deceased doesn't qualify for burial assistance thru the county or state, the mortuary eats it.

Also - most people die with health insurance - Medicare. If you're over 65, you're covered.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but this is how the system works.

bob2356 says

What that actually means for the people who do not buy health insurance is that they are free to choose what treatment they pay for or what treatment they let everyone else pay for. That’s the problem.

simchaland says

More to the point, we all have a 100% fatal disease. It’s called “life” and everyone has an expiration date. It costs money to die. When you die without health insurance it costs the taxpayers and people left behind to treat you in your final moments and then dispose of your body properly. If you are a responsible person, you get insurance to prepare for the inevitable.

What you are implying here taken to its logical conclusion is exactly what has happened in other totalitarian regimes. You have defined life in terms of dollars and cents, combined with "obligations" to society.

Under this mindset it is perfectly reasonable to tax people to pay for their own and others "health care" if they are irresponsible enough to refuse to save for themselves. Taken to the logical conclusion you will begin to exterminate those who do not or will not "contribute to society," and if extermination is not politically correct perhaps you should just strip them of their citizenship as Kevin mentioned on another thread and then you can deport these people and treat them like the terrorist scum they are in camps like Gitmo, Gulags and Buchenwalds.

Not very liberal of you is it?

their should be an exception if your net worth or assets are more than say 500,000, like in FL you don;t have to buy auto insurance if you place a surety bond or have a high net worth.. why would a multi-millionare want auto insurance? or health insurance? he can pay for anything that goes wrong ten times over

elliemae says

simchaland says

When you die without health insurance it costs the taxpayers and people left behind to treat you in your final moments and then dispose of your body properly. If you are a responsible person, you get insurance to prepare for the inevitable.

Health insurance doesn’t pay for the disposal of a body after death, nor does healthcare reform require this be covered. Mortuaries usually serve community hospitals under a rotation basis- and if there’s no other payment and for whatever reason the deceased doesn’t qualify for burial assistance thru the county or state, the mortuary eats it.
Also - most people die with health insurance - Medicare. If you’re over 65, you’re covered.
I’m not trying to be difficult, but this is how the system works.

Yes and responsible people buy life insurance and/or pre-pay for their funeral arrangements so that their loved ones and society doesn't have to foot the bill.

So I agree with you on that one.

AdHominem says

Taken to the logical conclusion you will begin to exterminate those who do not or will not “contribute to society,

That's the "logical conclusion"? Maybe in your warped world...

AdHominem says

Under this mindset it is perfectly reasonable to tax people to pay for their own and others “health care” if they are irresponsible enough to refuse to save for themselves

Please enlighten us as to what percentage of people without health care have enough in savings to pay out of pocket for a major event of cancer or heart disease.

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Taken to the logical conclusion you will begin to exterminate those who do not or will not “contribute to society,

That’s the “logical conclusion”? Maybe in your warped world…

Please enlighten us then. What would you do with the hundreds of thousands who do not or will not work or pay taxes?

simchaland says

Yes and responsible people buy life insurance and/or pre-pay for their funeral arrangements so that their loved ones and society doesn’t have to foot the bill.

Sounds good - but I see many instances of mortuaries selling VERY (sorry to yell) expensive policies to people who can ill afford to do so. People on Social Security paying off a $20k funeral policy, when the family would have been satisfied with $2,000 simple burial with small service, in most cases. Depending upon where you live, a simple cremation costs anywhere from $300 to $1200. But the mortuaries sell expensive policies designed to play on the emotions of the patients.

And life insurance is just that - a policy that pays when someone dies. I've witnessed many cases of people who added their significant other or a child to the insurance policy as beneficiary, only to have that person refuse to pay for burial expenses. The beneficiary is under no obligation to pay for the burial - and when other family members get involved, the prices of the burial/funeral can skyrocket. Why should the beneficiary pay for a burial, when the patient could have purchased a burial plan if that was their goal?

So many issues. I didn't even discuss the huge commissions paid to salesmen of these policies.

AdHominem says

Please enlighten us then. What would you do with the hundreds of thousands who do not or will not work or pay taxes?

You help them so that in the future they will work and pay taxes.

elliemae says

Sounds good - but I see many instances of mortuaries selling VERY (sorry to yell) expensive policies to people who can ill afford to do so. People on Social Security paying off a $20k funeral policy, when the family would have been satisfied with $2,000 simple burial with small service, in most cases. Depending upon where you live, a simple cremation costs anywhere from $300 to $1200. But the mortuaries sell expensive policies designed to play on the emotions of the patients.

That's why you do your homework and pre-pay when you are still of able mind and body. You don't wait until you are dying to plan for your own funeral. Everyone should consider planning for the inevitable because it's only logical. Leaving it for the last minute when everyone is sick and emotional is irresponsible. Of course, you're leaving yourself open to crooked mortuary companies in that case. Plan now, while you're still able to think clearly.

elliemae says

And life insurance is just that - a policy that pays when someone dies. I’ve witnessed many cases of people who added their significant other or a child to the insurance policy as beneficiary, only to have that person refuse to pay for burial expenses. The beneficiary is under no obligation to pay for the burial - and when other family members get involved, the prices of the burial/funeral can skyrocket. Why should the beneficiary pay for a burial, when the patient could have purchased a burial plan if that was their goal?
So many issues. I didn’t even discuss the huge commissions paid to salesmen of these policies.

The life insurance isn't necessary to bury the dead. It's to enable your dependents to continue living a lifestyle that they would have had if you had lived. If you have a bunch of debt and don't care about your lover, husband, wife, kids, then don't get life insurance.

And not all salesmen are on the take. You need to do your homework while you are still of able body and mind. That's what responsible people do.

Commissions are built into the policies. Prepaid burial plans are death policies too, high commission. Life insurance is a way to provide for people after you die - but it's important to keep up with the policies to make sure they reflect the changes in your life.

elliemae says

Life insurance is a way to provide for people after you die

Once again, proof a liberal can make deep, profound observations.

RayAmerica says

elliemae says

Life insurance is a way to provide for people after you die

Once again, proof a liberal can make deep, profound observations.

Once again a conservative is showing his ability to state the obvious without actually understanding what the obvious means.

simchaland says

Once again a conservative is showing his ability to state the obvious without actually understanding what the obvious means.

I get dissed even when I pay a compliment to a liberal.

RayAmerica says

You really need to follow what others think of you and quit taking yourself so seriously. Laughter is a wonderful thing. I laugh at your posts all the time and for that, I thank you.

It's good to have a sense of humor - but it's more than a bit pathetic when you're the butt of the joke and you don't know it, rayray. Yea, I'm talking to you - and your approval of my post was so awesome! I did the happy dance, knowing that you like me - right now, you really like me!