patrick.net

AdHominem says

Right now, in America you are free to buy or not buy health insurance. If you choose to buy health insurance, you agree to let someone else decide what treatment is covered. If you choose not to buy health insurance you are free to decide what treatment you will pay or not pay for.
Would you prefer that we nationalize health insurance or health care so that someone else makes decisions about your health?

That is really a dumb post. Under all those scenarios, you are free to seek treatment or not--you have the ultimate control. The only difference is who pays for it.

In the first scenario--large profit maximizing companies decide whether or not to pay for your treatment. Or you can pay for it out of you pocket.

In the second scenario--you pay for everything out of your own pocket, assuming you can afford the treatments..

In the third scenario--it depends on which system would be implemented, but it would probably be Drs. deciding whether or not your treatment is covered. Or you could pay for it out of your pocket as in the other two scenarios.

Does that help your understanding AdHom?

liberal and conservative are pigeon hole categories, and i can't honestly see how any free thinking individual would allow themselves to be thrown into either hole, how about thinking for yourself for a 'change'

surfingerman says

liberal and conservative are pigeon hole categories, and i can’t honestly see how any free thinking individual would allow themselves to be thrown into either hole, how about thinking for yourself for a ‘change’

Careful - the Bobsey triplets will attack you and claim that you're nazi-like. Dunno why... must make them feel better about themselves.

every time i get called a nazi i wear it as a badge of honor, everything in the world is nazi apparently.. or so i have learned over the past few years

lets se, against illegal immigration.. nazi against soicalist health care.. nazi check, support govt health-care.. nazi check, obama bails out banks and corporations, nazi check, im more interested at this point at what isn't nazi , i don't think anyone knows

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Right now, in America you are free to buy or not buy health insurance. If you choose to buy health insurance, you agree to let someone else decide what treatment is covered. If you choose not to buy health insurance you are free to decide what treatment you will pay or not pay for.

Would you prefer that we nationalize health insurance or health care so that someone else makes decisions about your health?

The only difference is who pays for it.
In the first scenario–large profit maximizing companies decide whether or not to pay for your treatment. Or you can pay for it out of you pocket.
In the second scenario–you pay for everything out of your own pocket, assuming you can afford the treatments..
In the third scenario–it depends on which system would be implemented, but it would probably be Drs. deciding whether or not your treatment is covered. Or you could pay for it out of your pocket as in the other two scenarios.
Does that help your understanding AdHom?

Lets see if this helps your understanding tat:

like you said the only difference is who pays for it, but that makes all the difference doesn't it.

Under the third system the citizen's savings/earnings are involuntarily confiscated.

Not very liberal is it? How liberal are you?

AdHominem says

If you choose not to buy health insurance you are free to decide what treatment you will pay or not pay for.

What that actually means for the people who do not buy health insurance is that they are free to choose what treatment they pay for or what treatment they let everyone else pay for. That's the problem. If I knew that the people who didn't pay for health insurance weren't using mine instead, I wouldn't have a problem with the current system.

It's irresponsible to own and operate a body without health insurance just like it's irresponsible to own and operate a car without auto insurance.

Car drivers without auto insurance force others to pay for their accidents instead of being responsibly covered in the case of a wreck.

People without health insurance force others to pay for their injuries and illnesses instead of being responsibly covered in the case of illness or injury.

More to the point, we all have a 100% fatal disease. It's called "life" and everyone has an expiration date. It costs money to die. When you die without health insurance it costs the taxpayers and people left behind to treat you in your final moments and then dispose of your body properly. If you are a responsible person, you get insurance to prepare for the inevitable.

AdHominem says

Under the third system the citizen’s savings/earnings are involuntarily confiscated.

No they aren't. If the citizens elect officials who pass nationalized health care, then they've effectively made the choice to pay for healthcare... That's the way a republic works.

simchaland says

When you die without health insurance it costs the taxpayers and people left behind to treat you in your final moments and then dispose of your body properly. If you are a responsible person, you get insurance to prepare for the inevitable.

Health insurance doesn't pay for the disposal of a body after death, nor does healthcare reform require this be covered. Mortuaries usually serve community hospitals under a rotation basis- and if there's no other payment and for whatever reason the deceased doesn't qualify for burial assistance thru the county or state, the mortuary eats it.

Also - most people die with health insurance - Medicare. If you're over 65, you're covered.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but this is how the system works.

bob2356 says

What that actually means for the people who do not buy health insurance is that they are free to choose what treatment they pay for or what treatment they let everyone else pay for. That’s the problem.

simchaland says

More to the point, we all have a 100% fatal disease. It’s called “life” and everyone has an expiration date. It costs money to die. When you die without health insurance it costs the taxpayers and people left behind to treat you in your final moments and then dispose of your body properly. If you are a responsible person, you get insurance to prepare for the inevitable.

What you are implying here taken to its logical conclusion is exactly what has happened in other totalitarian regimes. You have defined life in terms of dollars and cents, combined with "obligations" to society.

Under this mindset it is perfectly reasonable to tax people to pay for their own and others "health care" if they are irresponsible enough to refuse to save for themselves. Taken to the logical conclusion you will begin to exterminate those who do not or will not "contribute to society," and if extermination is not politically correct perhaps you should just strip them of their citizenship as Kevin mentioned on another thread and then you can deport these people and treat them like the terrorist scum they are in camps like Gitmo, Gulags and Buchenwalds.

Not very liberal of you is it?

their should be an exception if your net worth or assets are more than say 500,000, like in FL you don;t have to buy auto insurance if you place a surety bond or have a high net worth.. why would a multi-millionare want auto insurance? or health insurance? he can pay for anything that goes wrong ten times over

elliemae says

simchaland says

When you die without health insurance it costs the taxpayers and people left behind to treat you in your final moments and then dispose of your body properly. If you are a responsible person, you get insurance to prepare for the inevitable.

Health insurance doesn’t pay for the disposal of a body after death, nor does healthcare reform require this be covered. Mortuaries usually serve community hospitals under a rotation basis- and if there’s no other payment and for whatever reason the deceased doesn’t qualify for burial assistance thru the county or state, the mortuary eats it.
Also - most people die with health insurance - Medicare. If you’re over 65, you’re covered.
I’m not trying to be difficult, but this is how the system works.

Yes and responsible people buy life insurance and/or pre-pay for their funeral arrangements so that their loved ones and society doesn't have to foot the bill.

So I agree with you on that one.

AdHominem says

Taken to the logical conclusion you will begin to exterminate those who do not or will not “contribute to society,

That's the "logical conclusion"? Maybe in your warped world...

AdHominem says

Under this mindset it is perfectly reasonable to tax people to pay for their own and others “health care” if they are irresponsible enough to refuse to save for themselves

Please enlighten us as to what percentage of people without health care have enough in savings to pay out of pocket for a major event of cancer or heart disease.

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

Taken to the logical conclusion you will begin to exterminate those who do not or will not “contribute to society,

That’s the “logical conclusion”? Maybe in your warped world…

Please enlighten us then. What would you do with the hundreds of thousands who do not or will not work or pay taxes?

simchaland says

Yes and responsible people buy life insurance and/or pre-pay for their funeral arrangements so that their loved ones and society doesn’t have to foot the bill.

Sounds good - but I see many instances of mortuaries selling VERY (sorry to yell) expensive policies to people who can ill afford to do so. People on Social Security paying off a $20k funeral policy, when the family would have been satisfied with $2,000 simple burial with small service, in most cases. Depending upon where you live, a simple cremation costs anywhere from $300 to $1200. But the mortuaries sell expensive policies designed to play on the emotions of the patients.

And life insurance is just that - a policy that pays when someone dies. I've witnessed many cases of people who added their significant other or a child to the insurance policy as beneficiary, only to have that person refuse to pay for burial expenses. The beneficiary is under no obligation to pay for the burial - and when other family members get involved, the prices of the burial/funeral can skyrocket. Why should the beneficiary pay for a burial, when the patient could have purchased a burial plan if that was their goal?

So many issues. I didn't even discuss the huge commissions paid to salesmen of these policies.

AdHominem says

Please enlighten us then. What would you do with the hundreds of thousands who do not or will not work or pay taxes?

You help them so that in the future they will work and pay taxes.

elliemae says

Sounds good - but I see many instances of mortuaries selling VERY (sorry to yell) expensive policies to people who can ill afford to do so. People on Social Security paying off a $20k funeral policy, when the family would have been satisfied with $2,000 simple burial with small service, in most cases. Depending upon where you live, a simple cremation costs anywhere from $300 to $1200. But the mortuaries sell expensive policies designed to play on the emotions of the patients.

That's why you do your homework and pre-pay when you are still of able mind and body. You don't wait until you are dying to plan for your own funeral. Everyone should consider planning for the inevitable because it's only logical. Leaving it for the last minute when everyone is sick and emotional is irresponsible. Of course, you're leaving yourself open to crooked mortuary companies in that case. Plan now, while you're still able to think clearly.

elliemae says

And life insurance is just that - a policy that pays when someone dies. I’ve witnessed many cases of people who added their significant other or a child to the insurance policy as beneficiary, only to have that person refuse to pay for burial expenses. The beneficiary is under no obligation to pay for the burial - and when other family members get involved, the prices of the burial/funeral can skyrocket. Why should the beneficiary pay for a burial, when the patient could have purchased a burial plan if that was their goal?
So many issues. I didn’t even discuss the huge commissions paid to salesmen of these policies.

The life insurance isn't necessary to bury the dead. It's to enable your dependents to continue living a lifestyle that they would have had if you had lived. If you have a bunch of debt and don't care about your lover, husband, wife, kids, then don't get life insurance.

And not all salesmen are on the take. You need to do your homework while you are still of able body and mind. That's what responsible people do.

Commissions are built into the policies. Prepaid burial plans are death policies too, high commission. Life insurance is a way to provide for people after you die - but it's important to keep up with the policies to make sure they reflect the changes in your life.

elliemae says

Life insurance is a way to provide for people after you die

Once again, proof a liberal can make deep, profound observations.

RayAmerica says

elliemae says

Life insurance is a way to provide for people after you die

Once again, proof a liberal can make deep, profound observations.

Once again a conservative is showing his ability to state the obvious without actually understanding what the obvious means.

simchaland says

Once again a conservative is showing his ability to state the obvious without actually understanding what the obvious means.

I get dissed even when I pay a compliment to a liberal.

RayAmerica says

You really need to follow what others think of you and quit taking yourself so seriously. Laughter is a wonderful thing. I laugh at your posts all the time and for that, I thank you.

It's good to have a sense of humor - but it's more than a bit pathetic when you're the butt of the joke and you don't know it, rayray. Yea, I'm talking to you - and your approval of my post was so awesome! I did the happy dance, knowing that you like me - right now, you really like me!

elliemae says

It’s good to have a sense of humor - but it’s more than a bit pathetic when you’re the butt of the joke and you don’t know it, rayray. Yea, I’m talking to you

Insult #501 from ellie "I never insult anyone" mae. Pretty funny that you always imagine yourself being "attacked" when you're the one doing the attacking. What exactly is the name of the complex you're suffering from?

RayAmerica says

elliemae says

It’s good to have a sense of humor - but it’s more than a bit pathetic when you’re the butt of the joke and you don’t know it, rayray. Yea, I’m talking to you

Insult #501 from ellie “I never insult anyone” mae. Pretty funny that you always imagine yourself being “attacked” when you’re the one doing the attacking. What exactly is the name of the complex you’re suffering from?

Pot calling kettle... Come in kettle, it's pot...

Pot would make him easier to understand. Or 'shrooms. My favorite part is that he misses the hidden references.

There's no such thing as an exchange of ideas with rayray - it must be nice to always believe you know better, to always think you're the smartest person in the room...

elliemae says

Pot would make him easier to understand. Or ’shrooms. My favorite part is that he misses the hidden references.
There’s no such thing as an exchange of ideas with rayray - it must be nice to always believe you know better, to always think you’re the smartest person in the room…

Wait, you mean to tell me that there is actually "thought" involved for Rayray? When did this evolutionary leap happen?

It was an obscure quote from the movie Broadcast News. It certainly applied here. Rayray's attacks on anyone with whom he disagrees (basically anyone with an independent opinion) are wearing - and appear to have driven away so many other posters.

Come back, little Sheba! We miss you all!