patrick.net

marcus says

If these 10 are all very good candidates, and in deciding between the 4 or 5 best is basically a coin flip, you think it wrong to have a policy that say in such cases, increasing diversity is desirable ?

A coin flip? You've got to be joking. I would venture to guess that there are a lot of "referrals" from existing employees that tip the decision one way or the other. That's the way it works. Ever heard the phrase "It's not what you know, it's who you know..."

If we ever have an opening (rarely happens here almost 0 turnover), I know 10+ people that would start working tomorrow. These aren't unemployed people. Why would I choose from that pool of people? Because I already know them, their work ethic, personality, experience, skill level, etc, etc... It's just the way it works in real life.

I am the boss. I hire the best I can find, period. There are no ties in life. When the call is close, I have a panel of current workers conduct an interview - asking the same questions to each candidate - and I just observe. This is where "personality" and "team mesh" will get a person a job over an equally matched competitor. Age, race, sex, are not part of the interview ... any more than they would be in any other real life face to face interaction.

If anyone in charge of anything chooses a new hire based on anything other than productivity/application of job skills/value then that boss is a complete idiot. If the best person to do a job in the most productive manner at the greatest value to the entity is black, white, green, bi-lingo, tall, slow, ugly, whatever lable you choose .... then that is EXACTLY the person that should get the job. Even if the final vote in a close-call is cast by future fellow workers based on nothing more than comfort level .. that's how life works. Stripes with stripes, spots with spots, a chian is only as strong ... yaddda yadda yadda.

Forced diversity .. like you find in cross bussing in schools .. results in the non-meshed kids gathering into comfortable groups every chance they get. It results in school sponsored clubs that focuse on the differences of the cross-bused kids, keeping them totally seperate in identity from the other kids. It results in false feelings of accomplishment by those that dream up such stupid assed ideas as forced diversity. The "poor" side of town will have a certain expected attitude from kids and their parents, as will the "rich" side. The parents are responsible (made choices) for where the kids live, right? Anyways, thats a different subject I guess.

Bap33 says

Even if the final vote in a close-call is cast by future fellow workers based on nothing more than comfort level

There's the problem.

tatupu70 says

Bap33 says

Even if the final vote in a close-call is cast by future fellow workers based on nothing more than comfort level

There’s the problem.

is it?
why is the "comfort level" of diversity wanted(legislated and demanded) from left-minded people not the problem, but the "comfort level" of a productive work force is? Please explain the expressed validity of forced diversity, and give some examples where the forced diverse selection was better than the best choice based on sound selection systems.

RE equal treatment: I want to see a TSA vid of any rap star/thug gangster type getting an enhanced pat-down. You do notice that all of the targets of the TSA goons are never ever anyone that looks like they may react in an agressive manner ... don't you?

Bap33 says

why is the “comfort level” of diversity wanted(legislated and demanded) from left-minded people not the problem, but the “comfort level” of a productive work force is? Please explain the expressed validity of forced diversity, and give some examples where the forced diverse selection was better than the best choice based on sound selection systems.

Well, you are kind of contradicting yourself there. In the other post you said it's OK to pick based on comfort level, but now you are challenging me to give an example when the diverse selection was better than the best choice based on sound selection systems.

I don't disagree with using a sound system to make your selection--my problem is that most places don't do that. There is some baseline of requirements--education level, experience, etc. But then all the candidates get interviewed and the one that is chosen is often picked based on comfort level. That's where I think some problems can occur.

The only companies that are frowned on being any ethinic majority are White owned and staffed company. And even then the only "REAL" people Bitching about it, are White Liberals.

If they "REALLY REALLY REALLY" need this Diversification cause, then why don't they come to Miami, and bust up all of these Cuban and Hatian Clubs, er I mean Companies?
Here in South Florida Whites are only about 10% of the people I am either friends with, or work with. I can't recall working for an "All White" company in well over 15 years or more. YET! Almost every single Job I have had in the last 15 years or so, were Majority one ethinic or race, or another. No mix no diversification, and they have just as strong opinions about anyone that isn't a Paisan as any Redneck shop ran and Staffed by Cooter and Cletus.

tatupu70 says

I don’t disagree with using a sound system to make your selection–my problem is that most places don’t do that. There is some baseline of requirements–education level, experience, etc. But then all the candidates get interviewed and the one that is chosen is often picked based on comfort level.

So they should pick based on race, sex, religion, etc., instead?

Paralithodes says

tatupu70 says

I don’t disagree with using a sound system to make your selection–my problem is that most places don’t do that. There is some baseline of requirements–education level, experience, etc. But then all the candidates get interviewed and the one that is chosen is often picked based on comfort level.

So they should pick based on race, sex, religion, etc., instead?

No

Then what?

Here's a clue:

tatupu70 says

I don’t disagree with using a sound system to make your selection

Bap33 says

I am the boss. I hire the best I can find, period. There are no ties in life. When the call is close, I have a panel of current workers conduct an interview - asking the same questions to each candidate - and I just observe. This is where “personality” and “team mesh” will get a person a job over an equally matched competitor. Age, race, sex, are not part of the interview … any more than they would be in any other real life face to face interaction.
If anyone in charge of anything chooses a new hire based on anything other than productivity/application of job skills/value then that boss is a complete idiot. If the best person to do a job in the most productive manner at the greatest value to the entity is black, white, green, bi-lingo, tall, slow, ugly, whatever lable you choose …. then that is EXACTLY the person that should get the job. Even if the final vote in a close-call is cast by future fellow workers based on nothing more than comfort level .. that’s how life works. Stripes with stripes, spots with spots, a chian is only as strong … yaddda yadda yadda.
Forced diversity .. like you find in cross bussing in schools .. results in the non-meshed kids gathering into comfortable groups every chance they get. It results in school sponsored clubs that focuse on the differences of the cross-bused kids, keeping them totally seperate in identity from the other kids. It results in false feelings of accomplishment by those that dream up such stupid assed ideas as forced diversity. The “poor” side of town will have a certain expected attitude from kids and their parents, as will the “rich” side. The parents are responsible (made choices) for where the kids live, right? Anyways, thats a different subject I guess.

Good points. However, if a group of football player interview 2 canidates -- 1 a football player and the other a baseball player. Who gets the job?....the football player! So, my points are that since white and black cultures are so different blacks have no chance in hell unless they change who they are at the core of their being.

This also applies for rich vs poor, surfers vs boaders, city people vs rural people....

tatupu70 says

Paralithodes says

tatupu70 says

I don’t disagree with using a sound system to make your selection–my problem is that most places don’t do that. There is some baseline of requirements–education level, experience, etc. But then all the candidates get interviewed and the one that is chosen is often picked based on comfort level.

So they should pick based on race, sex, religion, etc., instead?

No

The only way is to set aside a certain amount of positions as is being done by large corporations. Else, the dominant group in power will continue to select only from those that are alike them. If Blacks or Asians were in power it would be the same in reverse.

Bap33 says

Or, maybe, diverse could mean:
lazy … why have only productive workers?? That’s not very diverse!!
slow … why have only productive workers?? That’s not very diverse!!
ignorant .. why have workers that understand problems and patterns and direction?? That’s not very diverse!!
stinky … why have only well groomed workers that do not smell?? That’s not very diverse!!
fat … why have fit and trim workers?? That’s not very diverse!!
tall … were is our 75% tall area?
skinny … how about a lounge for the 75% skinny folks!!
…. who/why/what guage is used to figure out who/why/what gets used to do a job other than the best. THE BEST. Lets try finding a better candidate for any job, other than THE BEST … that is stuuuuuuupid. THE BEST is always THE BEST choice!!!! If the focus is selecting THE BEST for a job, then there is no need for racism/sexism/heteroism/normalism in any workplace. EEO should really be EQUAL.
Liberalism is a mental disorder

It absolutely could mean that. Diane Sawyer did a special on how GOOD LOOKING people get the job first over LESSER LOOKING canidates. SPORTS fields are truly the only arenas where competition of talents wins in the end.

Kobe Bryant is the best because he put in the work, not because Jerry Buss or Magic Johnson like him. However, we cant say that for every CEO in America whom have been "cherry picked" by their friends.

Tenouncetrout says

The only companies that are frowned on being any ethinic majority are White owned and staffed company. And even then the only “REAL” people Bitching about it, are White Liberals.
If they “REALLY REALLY REALLY” need this Diversification cause, then why don’t they come to Miami, and bust up all of these Cuban and Hatian Clubs, er I mean Companies?
Here in South Florida Whites are only about 10% of the people I am either friends with, or work with. I can’t recall working for an “All White” company in well over 15 years or more. YET! Almost every single Job I have had in the last 15 years or so, were Majority one ethinic or race, or another. No mix no diversification, and they have just as strong opinions about anyone that isn’t a Paisan as any Redneck shop ran and Staffed by Cooter and Cletus.

Thats the reverse discrimination we were talking about. I interviewed for an IT job at Panda Inn. What i found was the entire department was Asian, half of which could barely speak English. This indicated to me that I was not the right fit, which in the end I told the recruiter they may want to try and send someone of Asian descent in to fill the spot. I could never relate to the culture the way anothe Asian person could, and I accept the fact that I was not a good fit. All other departments were fairly diverse and integrated. Even the HRM could not understand why he had so many canidates rejected.

Now, if we apply diversity laws then the IT group would have never been able to cherry pick friends and family to join them.

All large modern corporations have policies of encouraging diversity, that doesn't come from liberals, it comes from modern times and common sense. But I guess the obvious pragmatic side of it is lost on some people.

Let me break it down for you Bap. Talent exist in all ethnic groups. Now I'm talking about the big city here, but if you are running a corporation, in a major city, you want diversity, as much as possible, so that when there is a talented nonwhite person that you want on your team, he or she will be willing to join your company.

IT's just reality here in 2010 and this is only going to be more true as time goes on.

Now in the past, yes, some forward thinking "liberals" did force this a little.

But it's the 21st century now, and no serious company would think of not encouraging diversity, and that's not because of liberals or just a token effort at being PC, it's just where the world is at.

What are you out in the sticks somewhere where everyone is white and is still wrestling with 1970s issues ?

you solidify my point .... in spades. Thanks.

You both have a point BAP/MARCUS, the statement that "the best is the best choice" is invalidated when people choose to go with the canidate that they most relate to instead of the most qualified or in this case the "best" canidate.

However, diversity exists because it has been proven that 9/10 times people go with whom they most closely associate with.

Therefore UGLY people cant get jobs from GOOD looking people....

Clarence 13X says

Often times this involves white males choosing their friends for positions of power…which is a subconcious decision anyone could make unknowingly. Put me in power and I am sure within a few years I will have unknowingly put 1/3 of the organization under black control.

Well, Clarence 13X, the white people who unquestionably were and still are in control have, instead, put a lot of black people in control, up to and including the current president and previously Sec. of State, Joint Chiefs, and numerous others. In many if not most cases, bending over backwards to find reasons to so do and close eyes on the reasons not to. Perhaps that is the difference between us.

tatupu70 says

I don’t disagree with using a sound system to make your selection

Sure, a "sound system" Sounds great! ... So what exactly is your definition of a sound system, how is it validated, implemented, adjusted to not result in "adverse impact" while not degrading its original predictive value, and of course, regulated?

Clarence 13X says

The only way is to set aside a certain amount of positions as is being done by large corporations.

So, an individual who is not a minority should be passed over for a job even if they are much more qualified than an individual who is a member of a "minority class?"

You, sir, are a racist!

Yeah, I'm telling you, this issue really has the racists like Clarence showing their true colors.

Paralithodes says

So, an individual who is not a minority should be passed over for a job even if they are much more qualified than an individual who is a member of a “minority class?”
You, sir, are a racist!

Are you assuming that it is impossible to fill a set number of positions with minorities without passing up more qualified individuals that are not minorities??

That sounds racist to me.

tatupu70 says

Are you assuming that it is impossible to fill a set number of positions with minorities without passing up more qualified individuals that are not minorities??
That sounds racist to me.

Yes, assuming such a thing would sound racist to me as well. I guess it's a good thing I don't make that general assumption and instead focus on the impact of an arbitrary quota on the rights of individuals .

IMO, it is absolutely fine to set a number of positions as a goal, and perform extended outreach to find qualified candidates among under-represented groups. The higher the number of qualified candidates you can get from under-represented groups, the higher the likelihood that more will be selected as a proportion of the total selected. That, in fact is the actual definition of "Affirmative Action."

A set-aside number of positions, or "quotas" in actual terms, is something else entirely. If you believe it is "racist" to be against a quota, that's fine. I believe it is "racist" to be for one. Which position makes "race" an explicit part of the selection criteria? Hint - it's not my position.

Paralithodes says

tatupu70 says

Are you assuming that it is impossible to fill a set number of positions with minorities without passing up more qualified individuals that are not minorities??
That sounds racist to me.

Yes, assuming such a thing would sound racist to me as well. I guess it’s a good thing I don’t make that general assumption and instead focus on the impact of an arbitrary quota on the rights of individuals .
IMO, it is absolutely fine to set a number of positions as a goal, and perform extended outreach to find qualified candidates among under-represented groups. The higher the number of qualified candidates you can get from under-represented groups, the higher the likelihood that more will be selected than otherwise. That, in fact is the actual definition of “Affirmative Action.”
A set-aside position, or “quota” in actual terms, is something else entirely. If you believe it is “racist” to be against a quota, that’s fine. I believe it is “racist” to be for one. Which position makes “race” an explicit part of the selection criteria? Hint - it’s not my position.

I pretty much agree. I only think quotas are useful if companies can't be trusted to do the outreach or hire qualified minorities. Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but at this point I don't think quotas are necessary.

tatupu70 says

I pretty much agree. I only think quotas are useful if companies can’t be trusted to do the outreach or hire qualified minorities. Maybe I’m overly optimistic, but at this point I don’t think quotas are necessary.

There have in fact been some court cases ordering some organizations to establish some quotas and hire some minorities. One of the most famous is Sheet Metal Workers Union # 28, which was ordered to do so by the Supreme Court:
http://www.answers.com/topic/local-28-of-sheet-metal-workers-international-association-v-equal-employment-opportunity-commission
I have no issue with it being implemented in specific cases, to remedy a specifically identified problem. I believe we are in near full agreement on this issue, sir.

it is all about intent and focus.

If the intent is to hire the absolute best person for a job, and the focus is finding the absolute best person for a job, then there is no reason to pay any attention to anything that does not help reach that goal.

The "idea" that focusing and intending to hire someone that matches some pulled-from-thin-air special "protected" class description, as oposed to the absolute best candidate is absolutly undefendable. That type of system is a luxury, and is in no way productive. As a matter of fact, if anyone cars to look at facts and nature and life honestly, a system based on the whole "protected" class focus is destructive. As with most every feelgood system forced on the American public, the system of forced devirsity has a net-negative effect.

There is only one NBA Champ. And anyone that makes a team has a chance to win it. None of the NBA rules or requirements mention race - by the way.
There is only one NASCAR Cup. Anyone that makes the team is welcome to try for it. None of the NASCAR rules mention race either.
One of these is dominated by a "protected" (as per left-minded rules) "class", and nobody has ever tries to force for more racial diversity in it's ranks. The other is dominated by a "non-protected class" and has been attacked and forced to come up with some type of diversity program based on race. Interesting, huh?

I wonder how this whole conversation would be viewed one hundred fifty years from now.

My opinion is that these questions would seem like quaint ancient history. It will be difficult for any person, even those who are socially retarded, to comprehend that this was considered (by some - not me) political. And I think they will agree with those here who say that diversity never needs to be, or needs to have been forced, for example in law schools or large corporations.

But then, if you have never lived in a very sheltered homogeneous population, how would you know what that was like ? How would you know whether expediting the inevitable at that time had any social or economic advantages ?

Paralithodes says

I blame Bush.

what the heck Bush do to hold back diversity....I am not sure I understand this one.

Bap33 says

The “idea” that focusing and intending to hire someone that matches some pulled-from-thin-air special “protected” class description, as oposed to the absolute best candidate is absolutly undefendable. That type of system is a luxury, and is in no way productive. As a matter of fact, if anyone cars to look at facts and nature and life honestly, a system based on the whole “protected” class focus is destructive. As with most every feelgood system forced on the American public, the system of forced devirsity has a net-negative effect.

Yes, class focus is destructive. However, it ia apparently clear that no nother ethic groups are permitted the same opportunities as whites in the workplace. If not for the cherry picking and buddy system I would agree 100% with you.

Until we can measure performance in the workplace like we can in sports we have to put in place measures to ensure that qualified canidates are not overlooked simply because their culture is different.

marcus says

I wonder how this whole conversation would be viewed one hundred fifty years from now.
My opinion is that these questions would seem like quaint ancient history. It will be difficult for any person, even those who are socially retarded, to comprehend that this was considered (by some - not me) political. And I think they will agree with those here who say that diversity never needs to be, or needs to have been forced, for example in law schools or large corporations.
But then, if you have never lived in a very sheltered homogeneous population, how would you know what that was like ? How would you know whether expediting the inevitable at that time had any social or economic advantages ?

I think in 150 years it will be known that diversity efforts in the workplace are what will lead developing nations to buy a companies products. Large corporations are already placing focus on diversity because they see the value in the ideas of a diverse group that can re-focus their products towards the untapped markets.

My point is not to take jobs away from qualified canidates but to put a stop to the CHERRY PICKING and GOOD OL BOYS network that prevents qualified canidates from truly competing.

The good ol boys network can include wome, blacks, others as well...its just depends on the culture of the main power group.

Clarence 13X says

However, it ia apparently clear that no nother ethic groups are permitted the same opportunities as whites in the workplace.

That being just "whites" could be argued I think.
Many places of work have an obvious tilt towards a particular ethnic group. And for any lower paying job, or non-white dominated job, it seems to be "ok" with those behind forced diversity. For example, Joe Perez tile has mostly hispanic workers, and nobody is suprized or upset by this. Univision and Telemundo hire ONLY hispanics, no persons of negro, anglo, or monglo backgrounds are seen on any telecast. While ABC or CBS or FOX all have most ethnic groups in place (even if by force), and STILL there is not a word from those in favor of forced diversity about the hispanic channels. BET is not presented as a non-biased channel, and SHOULD get a pass for any forced diversity. Same with any religion or ethnic based channel, there should be no push to force diversity. Right? And there we have it, a reasonible excuse for ethnic domination in a workplace.

The same can be said about industrial production work. You just will not see many women in that environment. But, the workforce will almost exactly match the demographics of the lower-moddle class in that area. No tilt in any ethnic direction, other than that based on population. There is a sex based tilt due to the work environment. In this case, it is NOT right or productive to force ACME Welding and Design to maintain a particular number of anything. All they want to find and hire are the absolute best heavy work, loud noise, get dirty, bust ass rough-necks they can find. Why doesn't this make sense to more left-minded people?

Clarence 13X, You seem to have a reasonible grasp of reality, but many left-minded people really do not understand why it is "ok" to focus on being productive and having workforce continuity. When you walk in the DiMarco Deli in Monterey, you do not act suprized to see 5 heavy-set Itailians cutting meat. When you walk into South Side Johnny's in Pittsburg near the tracks, you will find all negro people at work - but the patrons are mostly white folks.

In my honest opinion, this issue is only focused on better paying jobs. And those take special skills or special education. Special skills and special education are garnered alot of ways, but mostly through individual effort. That may be where the division between ethnic groups begins. If a person is raised in a house where education is not valued, then they may not be motivated to attain a special education that would result in a higher paying job. If a person is raised in a home where special skills are not discussed and their value made obvious, then that person may not look for and develop their God given special skill (I do believe each person is granted a special skill in something). One more important thing I want to share about me, to keep the air clear, I look at each worker as a tool (of sorts), and by that I mean they are of use and value if used correctly - just like a tool. If you try to drive a nail with a wrench you do a poor job of driving nails and you mess up a wrench. Forced diversity has the boss looking for a way to drive nails with wrenches, or tighten bolts with hammers, and that is not the best idea.

Bap33 says

Clarence 13X says

However, it ia apparently clear that no nother ethic groups are permitted the same opportunities as whites in the workplace.

That being just “whites” could be argued I think.
Many places of work have an obvious tilt towards a particular ethnic group. And for any lower paying job, or non-white dominated job, it seems to be “ok” with those behind forced diversity. For example, Joe Perez tile has mostly hispanic workers, and nobody is suprized or upset by this. Univision and Telemundo hire ONLY hispanics, no persons of negro, anglo, or monglo backgrounds are seen on any telecast. While ABC or CBS or FOX all have most ethnic groups in place (even if by force), and STILL there is not a word from those in favor of forced diversity about the hispanic channels. BET is not presented as a non-biased channel, and SHOULD get a pass for any forced diversity. Same with any religion or ethnic based channel, there should be no push to force diversity. Right? And there we have it, a reasonible excuse for ethnic domination in a workplace.
The same can be said about industrial production work. You just will not see many women in that environment. But, the workforce will almost exactly match the demographics of the lower-moddle class in that area. No tilt in any ethnic direction, other than that based on population. There is a sex based tilt due to the work environment. In this case, it is NOT right or productive to force ACME Welding and Design to maintain a particular number of anything. All they want to find and hire are the absolute best heavy work, loud noise, get dirty, bust ass rough-necks they can find. Why doesn’t this make sense to more left-minded people?
Clarence 13X, You seem to have a reasonible grasp of reality, but many left-minded people really do not understand why it is “ok” to focus on being productive and having workforce continuity. When you walk in the DiMarco Deli in Monterey, you do not act suprized to see 5 heavy-set Itailians cutting meat. When you walk into South Side Johnny’s in Pittsburg near the tracks, you will find all negro people at work - but the patrons are mostly white folks.
In my honest opinion, this issue is only focused on better paying jobs. And those take special skills or special education. Special skills and special education are garnered alot of ways, but mostly through individual effort. That may be where the division between ethnic groups begins. If a person is raised in a house where education is not valued, then they may not be motivated to attain a special education that would result in a higher paying job. If a person is raised in a home where special skills are not discussed and their value made obvious, then that person may not look for and develop their God given special skill (I do believe each person is granted a special skill in something). One more important thing I want to share about me, to keep the air clear, I look at each worker as a tool (of sorts), and by that I mean they are of use and value if used correctly - just like a tool. If you try to drive a nail with a wrench you do a poor job of driving nails and you mess up a wrench. Forced diversity has the boss looking for a way to drive nails with wrenches, or tighten bolts with hammers, and that is not the best idea.

Well said, I agree with each of your points 100%. However, in past I have interviewed at a faith based organization which has the legal right to ask what religion you are and as well I have interviewed at a openly gay company. In each instance I felt totally discriminated against in that I was not of the same culture. However much my skills were a fit for the role I was not seen as capable due to my religion and sexual orientation.

I am not jiving either, these experiences left me feeling violated in the worst way more so than any interview ever. Some days I wish this were basketball so I could develop only my skills and not have to worry about the personality traits the interviewer may or may not be looking for.

Also....talked with my wife about my theories and she agrees that blacks need to "man" up and stop making excuses. Which, if it were not for the mental disorder called HIP HOP I would agree.

Clarence 13X says

However much my skills were a fit for the role I was not seen as capable due to my religion and sexual orientation.

That's the trouble. Nobody knows the "why". You may be 100% correct in your thought, but one just never knows. It could have been because you drove a newer car than the last guy. It may have been because you wrote left handed. It may have been because his ex's name was Clarence. There just is no way to know. .... unless they are stupid enough to give a reason.... and even then it's possibly not absolute truth.

I am not a fan of Hip Hop. I dig Smokie though.

Clarence 13X says

Also….talked with my wife about my theories and she agrees that blacks need to “man” up and stop making excuses. Which, if it were not for the mental disorder called HIP HOP I would agree.

Isn't that pretty much what Bill Cosby has been trying to say? I don't remember his comments being met with a whole lot of support from the Black community ... am I wrong in that?

Clarence 13X says

However much my skills were a fit for the role I was not seen as capable due to my religion and sexual orientation.

Every organization has a "culture." Take two companies in the same industry, with exactly the same representation of diversity in their respective workforces (representation that gets the Clarence 13X seal of approval) and those companies will STILL have different cultures.

The degree to which one fits within a corporate culture may not be a sound basis for judging one's knowledge, skills, and abilities, but it definitely impacts how successful one is with implementing them most effectively (let's call this "capability").

Get beyond your racial victimhood ideology and your issue is simply an issue with human nature. How do we change that?

Clarence 13X says

what the heck Bush do to hold back diversity….I am not sure I understand this one.

It was a joke. Broaden your base to include more conservative friends and you may hear it from time to time. Say what you want about conservatives today blaming Obama for everything, but it was no different in reverse when Bush was President (it was probably no different going back almost Washington, or Adams at least). A running joke is that everything was Bush's fault. Solar flares knock out a GPS satellite? I blame Bush, etc... A squirrel got ran over on I-95? I blame Bush, etc. One of the funnier websites out there (not updated in quite a while, and will not be seen as funny by most here for obvious reason) is in my opinion: http://blamebush.typepad.com/

RayAmerica says

Clarence 13X says

Also….talked with my wife about my theories and she agrees that blacks need to “man” up and stop making excuses. Which, if it were not for the mental disorder called HIP HOP I would agree.

Isn’t that pretty much what Bill Cosby has been trying to say? I don’t remember his comments being met with a whole lot of support from the Black community … am I wrong in that?

Progressive blacks support Bill Cosby 100%. We cannot look at the community as a single entity anymore. Educated people support Bill Cosby, ignorant Ghetto people dont.

Clarence .... I'm deeply concerned about the values of all young people, regardless of race. There seems to be a concerted effort to dumb down an entire generation, perpetrated by, amongst others, the entertainment industry, etc. There are still a lot of good kids out there, but they seem to be a minority. I don't think there's ever been a tougher time for a decent kid to grow up and maintain his or her values, because it just isn’t “cool.” Not long ago, we attended a funeral of a 21 year old that died of a Heroin overdose. The father is a friend of mine. He tried everything but couldn’t save his son. There were an awful lot of kids at the funeral with the gang garb, tattoos, etc. The father told me they’re all heavily into drugs and his kid just got caught up with this bad crowd. I’ve never seen so many distant, lost looks in one place. I’m fearful that this drug culture, Hip Hop, etc. is far more rampant than I ever imagined.