patrick.net

We looked at a short sale while searching for our current place (closed a month ago). My attorney told me he wouldn't represent me if we bought a short sale. The whole thing is rigged and will never close. He had 3 deals late last year (all short sales) that were in the pipeline for over 8 months. Each one fell apart at the closing over disputes on tax escrow, realtor fees, etc. Are you willing to wait months or longer.....put your life on hold.....only to start the process again in a year. The banks have foreclosures coming out of their ears. They can't even be bothered with the short sales right now. Sure, your seller might agree to the offer, but why would the bank?

My wife and I were looking for cheap, basic housing and decided, among other things, to look at short sales. Our realtor sent us an MLS listing on a property which was perfect for us and in which the bank negotiatior wrote ..."first $200,000.00 offer in by 5PM tonight gets the house".

I called my wife at work, she took the rest of the day off and we managed to get a $200,000.00 offer along with the necessary paperwork submitted by 4:45PM. We knew there were no other offers on the house and could not see any reason why we would not get it. FYI...we were a cash buyer and could close as soon as the paperwork was drafted; the comps in the area were running around $280,000.00.

We got the response from the negotiator 3 days later that the bank now wanted $225,000.00! We could not believe they could do this but still wanted the house and so made another offer of $207,500.00. 3 days later we got another counter offer from the bank in which they now wanted $230,00.00! We relized then that this was a game in which the rules change at the banks whim and we have no say in any of them.

Shortly after this we found another house that was part of an estate sale and while it was not as good a deal as the short sale, it was much easier to navigate. I think there are good deals to be had with short sales but I also believe you have to have the time and patience to play the game. I believe these negotiations will always be protracted by the bank and your resources are tied up in the meantime. Good Luck!

Short sales in some respects are a thing of the past. I want you to think about this for a minute. A couple of years ago you never knew what a short sale was. Unless you were a real estate investor. A thing mention like that in the news a couple of years ago. Would have been highly discouraged. In fact you never would have heard of that term.

That one thing discounting tells you lenders are a major trouble. However. If you are new to this they will pull all sorts of stunts if you are not experinced. Again. I have near 20 years experince in real estate investing. Don't go in there as a noob not knowing whats going on. Talking short sale. They will burn your shorts off.

In fact. The real hip here will tell you lenders are keeping home prices at a artifically high price. AT THIS TIME. See if your not hip. You will say good house prices. If you know whats going on. You will see them keeping these prices on houses as high as they can. The higher the price the more interest they make. The higher the price the higher the commisions. Those two work together. Thats just an aside.

See now for the most part. I won't buy. WHY. Because you will get screwed good in a negative equity market. What is being pitched is still appreciation. You buy today and guess what. With the overinflated prices they have these houses at. Other than a few teasers. Your going to wind up in negative equity. Or upside down in the house. Possibly a few months to a year after your purchase.

Short sales may take some of the hurt out of that. But as long as these lenders. Keep these prices where they should not be. Your more than likely going to wind up in negative equity.

Renting is a better option at this point for you if you have to have a place. However your going to find out these lenders own the apartments anyway and keep them at mortgage payment levels. Trying to get your down payment in a house and the interest. Thats part is about owning property. Be smart don't lose out. At some point this will hit a bottom. You will get the deal of a lifetime. In a really nice house possibly. In a really nice neighborhood. Not winding up slaving to pay off your house for years and years and years.

@ ArtimusMaxtor,

I am trying to understand your point...really, I am, but the lack of proper punctuation and grammar is killing me.

Oh I understand. I thought about teaching english. But I never got the hang of it. HaHa

Theres more money in houses anyway. HaHa.

See what I am doing here. Is in my own best interests. I am not being a consumer advocate. As long as house prices. Keep going down. I make out. When lenders keep these prices high. I feel I am being treated like some first time home buyer. I don't like that.

This homebuying market is at a vitrual standstill. No matter what is said. You will notice all kinds of things. Like the average home price is a 172k. They have had that figure up there for years. All kinds of conflicting stories that confuse you. Well if your confused go find a realtor. I WOULD'NT. I could care less about the economy. Which is nothing more than lenders making a lot of cash. The economy equals. A CREDIT BASED BANKING SYSTEM. I could care less about credit. What I am interested in is property. Real assets. Not paper.

See buying houses is all about CREDIT. It's not about the house mostly.. Its about getting credit. Most people here are more or less involved in the credit scheme of things. Not the asset. You want to be concerned with the asset. Not getting credit. Take out the credit. Your lost. See they never talk about the credit for the most part. Just the house. When they get you in their door. Then the credit you have to get comes into play. To get a house and getting credit. Having to pay it back taking years and years of your life sweating to pay it off. Is just insane to me. In a negative equity market. With prices going down. Lenders keeping prices as high as they can. To buy now is just not smart.

Buying when the lenders offer their houses at a proper level. (That day is swiftly coming) it seems. Is smart. In the mean time I am not getting screwed buying while these lenders try to sucker me in. When they can't sell anything. I will just wait.

$500,000 is a lot of money. What exactly are you getting for 500?

To buy you should consider 4 things:
0) If interest rate is low, not a good time to buy since you'll be paying a high price on a wooden box. When rates go up, prices go down and you can not refinance because you are upside down.

1) Price in the area, simply check with county assessor for sale data. It's public information and is available on their website. Do not go to MLS for that, there data is manipulated and overstated.

2) Are you making 200,000 a year (single income)? Because that would be considered a safe income to go into a huge liability like that provided that if you lose your income someone can step in and cover you. Don't overleverage.

3) http://patrick.net/housing/calculator.php - This calculator will help you determine rent vs own. I highly doubt that paying 500k + interest + repairs + maintenance + taxes for a house would be cheaper than renting.

I have read some reports that banks are not guaranteeing good title in their REO and short sales. They are inserting into their sale contracts terms that say they are transferring their interest in the property, effectively exchanging a quit claim in return for your money. When they don't put these terms in the contract the servicer may have to cut a side deal with title insurers to indemnify the insurer for bad title, because otherwise the insurers won't touch these deals! I think short sales are less prone to defective titles because the borrower/owner is signing off on the sale. I am NOT a lawyer so double check my story yourself.

cearka says

I’m expecting this to happen, I know the changes of getting a shortsale is low, but it’s worth a try. We’re not really going for the comp because this one just has a few special things we really like about it. If it falls through…so be it. I’ve waited many years I’m ok to keep waiting.

No matter what you bid, the bank will most certainly counter you. I suggest you make a reasonable offer of what you think the price will be (if you think prices are still teetering) in 3 months (which is a reasonable time for them to respond to your offer). You can shop around in the mean time. Worse they can do is counter you to the market value. If you get lucky, you get a cheap price.

If you have to bid against people to be the chosen one to be submitted to the bank, I'd stay away from it.

And even after you all agree on the price, they can and probably will tack on an additional 1% short sale administration fee and they won't even ask you if it's okay. It will be a term in the short sale approval letter. Then the agents give you a dirty look when you complain about the it. The short sale approval letters will usually have a clause that states no money shall be given/rebated to you which gives your buyer agent an excuse not to give you the promised rebate. These hidden costs will affect your bidding strategy.

Job mobility is priceless. Getting out of a lease with one month's penalty is easy if you have to move across the country for a new job. Many companies are not so eager to cover a housing deficit in their relocation packages.
I know several people who cannot take promotions to new locals as they are too upside down on their houses. Also a couple who is living apart for the last year as they cannot sell the house. We won't be stepping back into the housing market for quite a few years. But I do understand the "heart" wanting a house. My head says, "No".

If you really want a house, any house, then go for it. Find out what the average sale price to list price is according to local MLS statistics, and plan your final offer accordingly. In my area for example it is 94% of list price. So for the sake of simple math, if a house was $100,000, offer $90,000 initially, with a plan to go no higher than $94,000.

Yes Mr. Fantastic, I service Irvine and a few other cities.

masayako2456 says

cearka,
I think it’s good to put everything together
Income: $180-200k
Current rent: $2333 / month
Comp: Any comps from the neighborhood at all? What’s the avg $ / sqft?
How long are you staying?
How much down payment?
Interest rate: 5% (just estimate)
Mortgage: 15 yrs, 30 yrs or ARM?
Let’s do some fill in the blank first…

Average $ / square foot is around 300~400 ish. Some of the recent sales in this neighborhood (not a whole lot as it's a neighborhood we're people don't really move much. the most common sale in this neighborhood is actually probate sales from people dying of old age I think.....) where smaller lots, smaller houses, for slightly more then the 500k list price this place is going for. houses in this area range from about 420k to around 2+ million.

to fill in your blanks...
Income: $180-200k. This is excludes overtime and bonus.
Current rent: $2333 / month
How long are you staying? 10-30 years, unless there's a dramatic shift in my industry that moves all the jobs out. However, nearly the jobs in my field have been in this area since this line of work has been around.
How much down payment? 20%
Interest rate: 4.5%
Mortgage: 15 yrs. No penalty for early prepayment. We'll probably pay bi weekly and throw any bonus/tax returns that come our way at the principle to try to chip it off early. My plan would be to pay off the mortgage 5 years earlier if possible.

This neighborhood has limited supply of houses but it is by no means immune to the crisis. It's already taken huge hits, and will continue to do so. The peak bubble price for this property was 800k, I fully anticipate it loosing another 80-120k in value. If however I stay there for 15 years, I anticipate that I'd probably break even as I would anticipate 15 years from now to be a very different time. if the mortgage is paid off quickly, 80-120k loss on the property value may be minor in the bigger scope of things. I'm really just following patricks principle of renting vs buying at this point.

@Pet Sitter of Irvine
I agree with job mobility.
the place is one mile from my spouses work, one mile from my work, in a very old and good neighborhood (there are alot of rich old white people in this neighborhood), and within an hour drive of literally about hundred different places we can work when we need to change jobs...which is very common in my line of work. (most of my older coworkers have been at at least a dozen different work places). I might of already said enough for some people to guess what industry I work in...as this is really the only industry I can think of that operates like this.
@FalconMaster
yeah the listing agents can go f&ck themselves for sure. My realtor has been actually pleasant about this so far. She hasn't made any real comments. Basically I just have her doing paperwork and finding out public records from the county office for me.
@ltremai & vain & other underbid advisers
I pretty set on underbidding 10k now, after reading some of the comments here.
@solver
I think I kinda get what your saying? you have a somewhat poetic way of writing. Also the schools are...meh. I mean, the schools anywhere within this state in general suck. We're not planning for kids anyways. there enough people on this planet. also I agree I think the listing agents are bid rigging.

@everyone
thanks for everyones advice/stories. I think I'll be underbidding abit, and if they counter I'll just drop it and move on.

also, it might be apparent that I'm trying to give out too much personal information...and that's true. this is it the internet after all....

I think though it's fairly obvious I live in LA. county....where you'll pay 4 times more for 4 times less....sigh....I wish I could move back to Texas.....

Don't ever let anyone tell you this is a good time to buy. If they do they are conning you. Thats like oh swammy telling you the future. I go out an look at house prices. When I see it I know. I don't ask for advice. I especially don't listen to the interest money soaked news.

It's stupid to go off of the advice of someone thats trying to get something from you. I don't want anything from you. Look if everyone got forecloused on. They were paying 200k for a house that would take at least 25 years of their life to pay it off. Intstead of paying it off. House price fall. They get the very same house for say 65k. Whats the problem with that.

I agree. The media is paid for by others. There's quite a bit disinformation out there. Why? They would like to cash in as much as possible, especially when the market is on the down-slope.

Sure they want to sell and use the same tactics that were employed before. After all, it's those tactics that brainwashed the majority of us in the beginning. Take the pill Neo took and you too shall see another world.

There are very few homes out here in the Inland Empire that truly command that the values that their asking. KB, Pulte an the likes were building their basic models for like $55.00 to $75.00 a square foot in a market where they were getting $250.00 to $500.00 a square foot. It's all a scam.

LAND, LAND, LAND. There's not enough land. When's the last time you drove out of the city. There's a grip of land. While infrastructure is not readily available in quite a few areas, there's still an absolute abundance of it.

If we all buy into the concept that supply is excessive, people would move further out and new cities would develop. Instead we all crowd around mecca, like its the last alternative. Look at Santa Barbara, Agoura and all of the residences on the outskirts of town. There's more value there than in mecca. REAL VALUE that is pleasing to the eye. Not a square box coffin.

By the way. When you look at homes keep this in mind.
HOMES
Square boxes are the least expensive to built with the exception of the modern looking places.
Hip roofs command higher property value visually and usually denote higher construction and design standards. Gable roofs, shed roofs and the likes are the least expensive. If you see multiple roofs intersecting one another, well, this is a good sign of quality.

LOTS:
Narrow lots do not exude the same visual strength that a wide one does. Better to have a wider lot than a narrow one. It just looks grand.
If you can go with a wide lot that is also deep, well it's even better. Beware hillside lots that show large square footage, but the majority of the lot is inaccessible. Beware of peek a boo views. If you can't see without having to rubberneck, then just avoid it like the plague.

NOBODY BUYS A HOME THAT DOES THEY DO NOT IMPROVE ON AND PERSONALIZE . Since there is not going to be any REAL tangible equity in the home in the near future, your going to to want to save as much on the purchase price as possible. This will allow you to do the improvements and create a lifestyle environment that you can successfully live in happily for quite a while.

Eventually, all will go up again, but it's going to be one hell of a long ride. Oh, make sure you check in the kitchens as well. When you view it, open up the cabinets and make sure that they haven't been pieced together. Also, make sure you avoid the ones that look like they were assembled. This can be seen from the bottoms of them.

Good luck. I'm going to continue to post information on homes and things to beware of. After all, in a depreciating economy, your buck should be spent well. This should be a dream for the bulk of us and not a nightmare. This should also represent a savings and not an expense. If it needs work, it needs work.

cearka says

also, it might be apparent that I’m trying to give out too much personal information…and that’s true. this is it the internet after all….
I think though it’s fairly obvious I live in LA. county….where you’ll pay 4 times more for 4 times less….sigh….I wish I could move back to Texas…..

It sounds like you are not making enough money and are risking too much.
the price sounds incredibly high, for "household" income of 180 you guys are over-leveraging. Liabilities have to be kept within one incomes budget.

If your wife or you lose a job in the next 10 years who is going to pay the mortgage? Expensive medical bills... who is going to pay that mortgage? Not to mention that 500 thousand is a gigantic number. Unless it's a castle that comes with diamond windows and golden frames I don't see why you should offer that crapy Realtor anything other than a goodbye.

At least from the numbers you posted you are basically repeating the same mistake that so many people have in the past 10 years. Who are now living lives with nothing to show for it full of regret. It is your money and you can do what you like of course. But I would advise against this transaction.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/23/us-markets-oil-idUSTRE71192R20110223 Oil climbs above $110.00 a barrel. Piss on the driving aspect. Instead focus on what this represents for housing...

@solver
ok that last one was less poetic and much more comprehensible. very good advice man, thanks for that =)

@ChrisLa
We're going to be spending less then a 3rd of our take-home income on this...I'm not sure how that's overleveraging. Overleveraging is more like when people were told that they could afford a 800k house on a 50k salary.....
Also we're putting 100k down, so the loan is for 400k. And we have alot more in savings for disasters....if one us were to loose our job we'd still be pretty safe.

Incomplete New Construction places:
Oh, for all of you cash buyers out there. If you see a home that hasn't been completed and is only in it's rough-in stage. Know that this is among the least expensive phases a home in construction can be in. The bulk of all costs and I mean somewhere in the 70% to 80% plus range costs are based on finishing. Do you use marble, slate, quartz.... Appliances, AC and the likes. This is where your costs are.

So, if anyone is looking at a place that is incomplete, know that the price should be like 90% less than a house in the area. The typical rule of thumb for America is that land should not exceed 10% to 20% the cost of what it will take to completely finish a home. Take the Supply and Demand concept and shove it.

Realtors/ brokers/ bankers do the deductions here in CA. They use a rough number per construction and then subtract that from the going rate of an already purchased home in the area and that becomes your land cost. F__KING rediculous. It's no wonder we were in a bubble. That worked it over on us psychologically.

So if the home is incomplete, then you can do the math. Remember this above all. A home that is not 100% complete is worth far less than a home that is. We had our home appraised a few years back and they told us that if the home was not 100% complete that it would be depreciated significantly. Now their all trying to weasel out of this statement. A home is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

cearka says

@ChrisLa

We’re going to be spending less then a 3rd of our take-home income on this…I’m not sure how that’s overleveraging. Overleveraging is more like when people were told that they could afford a 800k house on a 50k salary…..

Also we’re putting 100k down, so the loan is for 400k. And we have alot more in savings for disasters….if one us were to loose our job we’d still be pretty safe.

look its your money, do what you want with it.

You make 90 a year or so multiply that by 3 = 270. Thats what you can basically afford in liabilities.
180 is double income correct? Which means you can't use that since in this economy you can't rely on two peoples income.

Anything beyond that is frivolous and risky. Of course, do what you like. There is a calculator on patrick.net that will help you somewhat. When dealing with realtors just remember that they are looking out for their own skin which usually involves squeezing every penny out of you.

I am a Realtor ChrisLA, and that is a pretty generalized and unfair comment. I work solely in the best interests of my clients, and have talked as many people out of buying a house,or selling their house recently for one reason or another as I have vice versa. I won't let my people make a mistake. My integrity is everything and I gaurd it like a hawk. I am offended by your comments.

Buying a house is about quality of life and happiness. It shouldn't be about math. If you have job security, and you want it, and it makes sense in current market values and affordability, then do it. This is your life and the clock is ticking. The interest rates are ridiculously low and if you are going to stay put for a while, buy. Stop paying someone else's mortgage and into their equity.

@ChrisLA
No we're not split down the middle. I wont' give you the exact numbers, but the math works, and have, again, alot more in savings (more then our downpayment) to cover any "rainy" days....

@ssilva
if you has as much integrity as you say you do, then your a rare one in your field....atleast nowadays. There seems to be far more of your kind that are less scrupulous then you...I've certainly met plenty. That being said, your comments are partially true, and partially something I think you should rethink....

"Buying a house is about quality of life and happiness."
This is true for many actually....I've lived under 3 different landlords the last few years and all I can say is....renting my save money right now but that doesn't change the fact that is really sucks. I hate not having autonomy where I live....honestly I feel like I've been living in a hotel all this time rather then a "home."

"It shouldn’t be about math."
No but the math is important, and it still has to work. Don't through math out the window, math makes the work go round. The math not working is what made these houses go to unsustainable bullshit prices in the first place. The math not working is why patrick.net probably exists.

"If you have job security, and you want it, and it makes sense in current market values and affordability, then do it."
This is a fairly logical statement ....so yes...

"This is your life and the clock is ticking. The interest rates are ridiculously low and if you are going to stay put for a while, buy. Stop paying someone else’s mortgage and into their equity."
This is a terrible argument to tell anyone. Seriously. There's more math to house buying then just interest rates. And the whole stop paying someone elses mortgage is a realtor tagline I'm really tired of hearing.

FalconMaster - I believe you are right. I believe it is illegal for a bank's legal representative to make a series of increasing offers until we arrive at their nut. If we had pursued any litigation against them, though, I am certain it would not amount to much. Even if a court forced them to sell us the house for the originally offered price, they could create a paper chase that could last for years. I was just glad to find out how banks operate early on in the short sale process. As much as we liked that house, we knew the aggravation of pursuing that purchase on the bank's playing field and with their ever changing rules far outweighed the prize, if indeed there was to be any prize to be had. We are much better off where we are now. Thanks for writing!

Make sure the Purchase Agreement (offer) includes a Short Sale Addendum. Furthermore, make sure that the check boxes stating that none of the time-periods described in the P.A. nor the cashing of the deposit check are to begin/take place until 1 day after seller delivers written consent of Short-Sale Lenders' approval.

As far as liens, everything will have to be cleared before transfer of title. Escrow will handle this.

Other than that, be very patient. I always tell buyers offering on short sales to continue looking and even submitting offers if they find something else they like. You never know...

"Make sure the Purchase Agreement (offer) includes a Short Sale Addendum. Furthermore, make sure that the check boxes stating that none of the time-periods described in the P.A. nor the cashing of the deposit check are to begin/take place until 1 day after seller delivers written consent of Short-Sale Lenders’ approval."

Whoa, see this is very specific good advice that I was looking for. Thanks.

@cearka - You're welcome.

Would love to see these forums become a valuable resource for exchanging information rather than soapboxing.

Conejo Valley Agent says

@cearka - You’re welcome.
Would love to see these forums become a valuable resource for exchanging information rather than soapboxing.

These forums are a valuable source of information. Just because this does not cater to your business interest in snob hills, it doesn't make these forums any less valuable.

I don't like short sales without someone knowing how to do a short sale and even a lot of agents did not know what they were a couple of years ago. You asked an agent what a short sale is. He would ask you what? Know why they never were really involved in them. The lenders and the investors were the only ones that even knew about them. Sometimes and investor would not want his time taken up true. So that left Realtors that delt with investors.

Solver you are sharp on a lot of things. Thank you for the compliment. But in talking about builders I can see you have been around for a while. Banks will not deal in unfinished houses. Someone said that. So if you are looking for financing on a unfinished house. You will have to go elsewhere.

Shortsales take skills to get a house 30% under current market. With the junk they are using to keep pricing artificially high. You will get burned good. If you don't know what you are doing.

Like Trulia and Zillow. If you look at their houses sold. You go to the Superior court and look at the deeds. Those houses don't exsist as sales. Everyone uses Trulia and Zillow. To find home values now. The ripoff is that people are loosing equity by the boatload. They look at these two sources that are lender owned. They say hey looks good. But in fact most of those sales do not exsist at the courthouse. NOW MR REALTOR. Many of them know this. Of course some don't they let it slide. Before you do anything have a Realtor or a licenced appraiser pull the comps. It's their licence on the line. The appraisers know that Zillow and Trulia are fantasy land. They have said so over and over. Some say nothing. I myself know how to look up comps most people don't. I looked up the ones on the so called houses sold on Trulia and Zillow. They don't exsist. However I found some previous sales.

See high commisions based on high sales prices and appraisal fees are in their best interest and to get all this going again. So they say nothing about Trulia and Zillow. Pay an appraiser he might tell you the truth at this point.

The credit based banking system along with the interest soaked business and business news etc. Will lie their faces off. Of course

See those sales are not happening on Trulia and Zillow.

Don't believe me do your own research. However don't use the web. Because it is page after page of the same patriotic ramblings and interest soaked, interest owned search engines. Google who we were ALL sold on bought out everything else coded it so all you get returned is well page after page of the same thing. Even the porn industry is shocked I am sure.

Pull the comps on some Trulia and Zillow Fabrications. You will find they are not recorded sales. From Trulia and Zillow so generous with the information that normally costs $350 a pop to get from an appraiser. You will find no recorded sales FOR the information they are giving you. They did not happen that year anyway.

So you have happy smiling homeowners loosing their shorts to negative equity sitting there with a big goofy smile on their face. Thinking hey all these sales are happening look at Trulia and Zillow after all its eaiser than a trip to the courthouse (not the tax assesors office). And of course there are the suckers that see the PRE FORCLOUSER HOUSES. They don't look and see all those red dot for sale houses on Trulia and Zillow are REO's Big difference folks. REO is a polite name for Real Estate Owned. Thats post foreclouser. Those are all the homes for sale. Lender owned houses. Everyone else has given up.

Trulia and Zillow are lender owned NOT licenced enough said.

Quick read about Zillow:

http://conejovalleyconnection.com/2010/08/05/la-and-ventura-zestimates-revealed/

Cearka
I sold my house short sale. There was only one offer - many interested parties as it was a beautiful property. But when it came down to it, only one person was willing to take the risk of waiting how ever long it took the bank to decide (and no guarantee the bank would even agree to the sale). So I don't think you need to offer over asking, in fact my property sold for 70% of original asking price. The paperwork is painful also, another thing many buyers aren't willing to put up with. My buyer had to keep forking over extra fees that the bank insisted on them paying - so be aware you may have to do the same. (He also had to pay a portion of the Heloc). It took 6 months for the bank to agree and they started the foreclosure process at the same time they received the short sale offer! There were several last minute changes which jeopardized the closing. We closed at 5 pm the day before the foreclosure auction was to take place. It won't be a fun process, so don't overpay. Keep in mind you won't be able to put offers on any other properties in the meantime.

Oh, and as per ArtimusMaxtor's comment - make sure the selling agent is a short sale expert, or find your own. There is so much negotiating involved that this is an absolute requirement.

@common_sense
that's a very eye opening story. I'm certain I have the patience and funds for this, so perhaps this will be to my advantage.

Thanks to everyone. I almost caved to submitting an offer slightly higher then list price despite knowing better. I think the advice here has kept me from making that mistake at the least.

Artimus, I'm pretty sure most internet RE forum readers know not to use Trulia or Zillow's estimates. Common knowledge except amoungst home owners apparently. I've actually used the words "youre a complete moron and do not at all know what you are talking about" with co-workers and family that keep trying to cite zillow's zestimates. Then show them redfin actual sales within the last 3 months.

The gaping mouths are priceless.

Well I feel its not common knowledge. Its really not I have been in this business for a long long time. I have even caught people with a lot more experience than you know using it. To tell the the truth Dodger the only place I have seen it. Is in apprasial forums. These guys in the interest cash soaked media abuse just about anything they can find to keep it all going. Complete moron is apt. However how many get to see the things we do every day. There are some really hip realtors out there. Smart people. They don't say a lot about things. Cause they will just tell you to keep your mouth shut. How stupid is that?

There are some people that do know short sales no doubt. Again it just was not around a couple of years ago. That tells you somethings gone way wrong with things. When lenders and brokers give that kind of thing out. However be aware.

See my point is if it all goes. Its negative equity now anyway. Why not wait and pick up on something that is really cheap. Some would say it's my fault for wanting this. However I will play it straight. I leave it up to the people in negative equity. To take the Zillow and Trulia recent sales information down to the courthouse. The recent sales are the ones they base your home value on. See if their sales are valid on there. They are not. Over eighty six percent of them are bogus. See its not fair to the homeowner either. They I guess would need to know where they are at value wise in there home. Weather they are upside down or not. See I WAS USING IT. Haha. I said wait a minute this doesn't make sense.

People also paid the price for really liberal loan terms. I guess they call it sub prime. Well it's not sub prime. Those are what they call expanded criteria loans. Things like the Option (kiss of death) arm. I would not want to see my worst enemy get one of those. Home values were so high that was the only thing that could be used. See. The sub prime BS has gone away now conventional freddie and fannie have collapsed. Not to mention a lot of banks. Banks will lend on high dollar homes and a little commercial property. So that pulled these banks under. Sub prime was a way of saying hey these are high interest rate loans that caused all of this. Well I guess they were cause no one can pay them back including freddie and fannie loans. The sub prime was nothing but BS.

One more thing the option arms. They pulled those out of every single state when they shut down Great Western in the mid eighties. Except for World. That was the same people of course it mostly is. The only place it operated was Cali. For the most part. Deal is on a lot of those houses to get as many people in as they could. They could use nothing else.

They went out and tried to sell it to investors I know. I just told them look go the other way quick. Your going to get hit with an anvil. Some of them didn't. They found out the hard way.