patrick.net

Oh fuck. Chief cabinet secretary is talking about millisievert releases.

This is Chernobyl now, with radiation poisoning and the people working in the plant are national heroes.

Troy, are you still considering Japan as your retirement place?

Things are too bad... just too bad for them... maybe to surrouding countries... and to you.

And this from the ny times:

"The sharp deterioration came after government officials said the containment structure of the No. 2 reactor, the most seriously damaged of three reactors at the Daichi plant, had suffered damage during an explosion shorly after 6 a.m. on Tuesday.

If all workers do in fact leave the plant, the nuclear fuel in all three reactors is likely to melt down, which would lead to wholesale releases of radioactive material — by far the largest accident of its kind since the Chernobyl disaster 25 years ago. "

I can't believe this is happening.

Tokyo Governor Ishihara may be an asshole but he recently said the tsunami disaster might wake up Japan from its greed.

This is an interesting political direction for society to explore.

Prior to Friday, Japan was both fantastically wealthy and yet so much of the rural population was simply passed by with little hope of economic opportunity. Life was pretty hard in Tohoku, people living there had to work for their money.

I don't know how bad the nuclear disaster is going to get, and I don't know which reactor situation is worse! #1 failed first and then blew up, so it might be the hottest and hardest to cool, #2 apparently has a compromised secondary containment, allow vented steam from the core to escape directly into the containment building without further buffering, #3 has 5% plutonium and the building is still smoking after it blew up, yet #4 is "on fire" and has the highest radiation readings.

The area NE of Tokyo isn't that economically productive, but it does have some established industries that would be painful to move. If Tokyo has to be evacuated

This is however a golden opportunity for Japan to stop with the bullshit and start making the really tough decisions, basically declaring war on the recession and start applying itself to create a sustainable economy without the quintillion yen national debt hanging over it.

Troy says

Like Chernobyl, Cesium is the primary contaminant we have to worry about I’d guess. It’s got a half-life of 30 years. Coastal Fukushima is certainly fucked now.
A further problem is the reported measurement of 8 millisieverts. TEPCO didn’t say where that was measured, but it was probably associated with the rupture of the separation pool. Now if they need to vent the primary reactor pressure vessel they don’t have any hard containment on that, the steam will just leak out into the containment building.
This makes it difficult for anyone to be working anywhere in the building since a worker can only take 8 millisieverts for several hours before getting a cancer risk.
All this is IN ADDITION to the first reactor that blew up on Saturday and the plutonium-fueled reactor that is now “smoking”.

I'd have to agree, the plutonium and cesium would be the immediate concerns. Also, radioactive isotopes of iodine and strontium will likely be present. All present long-term problems.

Troy says

This is however a golden opportunity for Japan to stop with the bullshit and start making the really tough decisions, basically declaring war on the recession and start applying itself to create a sustainable economy without the quintillion yen national debt hanging over it.

Interesting perspective. Doesn't look like they took the first steps in that direction today, though:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-13/japan-readies-massive-liquidity-as-boj-gauges-risk-to-post-quake-economy.html

Hard to fault them for this in the short term though as they are just trying to protect their economy from collapsing after a natural disaster. Didn't seem to work too well, however. Guess we'll see what happens in the long term.

And an even worse worst case scenario surfaces:

In Stricken Fuel-Cooling Pools, a Danger for the Longer Term

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15fuel.html

Spent, combustible fuel rods stored in cooling pools ABOVE the reactors could become a problem in days-weeks. If their cooling water boils away, they will become exposed to the atmosphere and can catch fire, thereby releasing large quantity of radioactive materials. Could be "worse than a meltdown", according to the article. Scary shit, period.

crap. I hadn't thought of the possibility that the spent fuel pools would evaporate.

Right now NHK is saying that this might have happened, just the spent fuel rods emit enough heat to evaporate their pools.

Somewhere in the blur of the last few hours I came across a bit of information about the #4 reactor. That was the one that was most recently on fire. Seems that they were using it for spent fuel storage instead of power generation. Perhaps its cooling pool had more spend fuel rods than the rest?

Some good news:

Fire at No.4 reactor put down
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/15_33.html

The end of this article is cryptic though...

And:

All Fukushima No.2 plant reactors safely halted
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/15_24.html

Note that this is #2 plant and not #2 reactor.

terriDeaner says

Moving on, the issue is whether the released radioactive material will get pushed high enough into the atmosphere and/or get dumped into the ocean and make its way here to the Pacific coast. Further, the amount and type of material are a important considerations.

Above ground testing of Megaton Nukes/H-Bombs has been going on during the 50-60s. Others into the 70s. We are still kicking!!

terriDeaner says

Fire at No.4 reactor put down

apparently the US military had a hand in that.

Maybe that's why the USS Reagan was so close to Fukushima this week . . .

This definitely got out of control. I'm a little surprised with all this time, they couldn't get power to the pumps somehow, and/or injected a new pump into the system.

Although I just read this on CNN '"The level has come down to the level to cause no harm to human health, according to the report I have received," Edano said.' It seems that the half life is fairly short for most of what got out.

Now they've got rain and snow hitting those areas hit hardest. Ugh.

terriDeaner says

bob2356 says

terriDeaner says

…and that problems from exposure to radiation do not always manifest immediately, so washing with soap and water is just a first response treatment. Is is really paranoid to CONSIDER that, given the escalating problems at the Japanese nuclear facilities, things may get bad enough that we could be adversely affected, even across an ocean?

You need to gain a much better understanding of radiation, radioactive materials, exposure levels, and effects. There are many sources of information that can explain this material if you are actually interested in facts not hysteria.

PLEASE educate me bobby. Pretty please.

Harmful radiation from a ground level event crossing 6000+ miles of ocean is so unlikely as to be up there with being hit by an asteroid. So don't worry about being adversely affected if you are sitting in the US. People on the ground within 10 km of the reactors have real reason to worry, not you.

Washing the the US personal exposed to LOW LEVEL radiation with soap and water was the correct thing to do. You get more radiation exposure on a long plane flight than these guys got.

This situation is serious, very serious. But radiation isn't some monolithic death sentence. Everyone is exposed to radiation of many kinds every day. The type of radiation, the distance from the source, the dosage, the exposure time, etc. etc. all determine the danger level. The workers in the plant are at real danger of harm if total dosages aren't measured carefully. People in the immediate area, 10 km or less, could be in danger, and have been evacuated. Outside the immediate area, 10 to 50 km, radiation levels are elevated but still in the getting an xray range, people are advised to stay indoors. People in Tokyo are in very little danger, but under the right circumstances (strong wind from the right direction) could have elevated danger levels. Is it paranoid to consider harmful effects from this event in the Us? Yes.

I am back in Japan. BTW I flew back to Japan on Swiss Air today (First class upgrade since they needed me to translate). Anyway there were 3 experts on nuclear reactors on the flight from Switzerland heading to Japan to check out the reactor in Fukushima Pref.

elliemae says

ChrisLA says

That’s not the same thing nomo. You can’t equate nuclear reactor blowing up to a nuclear bomb.

Actually, I believe that you can. And the radiation from the nuclear tests in the 50’s & 60’s can directly be linked to cancers that are devastating people to this day. There are many “downwinders” sites that discuss the compensation for the victims - it’s an ongoing concern.
However, the atmosphere would probably help to dissapate the radiation to harmless levels. It is concerning that they’re talking about more than one reactor melting down, tho. If that happens, the Japanese people are totally screwed.

Ellie it would depend on how much radiation the plant(s) throws out. Environment may not dissipate it enough, for one thing half life of Uranium they use is 244,500 years. Which means it isn't going away on it's own in our lifetime.

It will spread around, and whoever wins that lottery is going to suffer a lot. When Chernobyl blew up, entire countries near by got hit by it. People in other countries became ill and died because their immune system became completely knocked out by radiation.

I know our media dummifies everything, but there is "NO" safe amount of uranium radiation. There are consequences.

Plant name Unit MW Mfr Status

Fukushima-Daiichi

1 460 GE filling with sea water

2 784 GE, Toshiba filling with sea water

3 784 Toshiba filling with sea water

4 784 Hitachi fire extinguished

5 784 Toshiba shut down for scheduled maintenance

6 1,100 GE, Toshiba shut down for scheduled maintenance

Fukushima-Daini

1 1,100 Toshiba cooled down safely

2 1,100 Hitachi cooled down safely

3 1,100 Toshiba cooled down safely

4 1,100 Hitachi cooled down safely

(Source: Tokyo Electric Power, govt agencies and media as of 0640 GMT on Tuesday)

The premise of this thread, worrying about US fallout, is a sign of the USA total preoccupation with itself and it's poor grasp of basic science. This is far more of a blow to the JAPANESE people, their economy, and by extension I suppose global economies. Ecological disaster or cancer hazard for US is WAY down the list. I am not Japanese, never been there, but obviously they have tragically more close up experience with fallout and they do not seem from afar to be in full panic.

bob2356 says

Washing the the US personal exposed to LOW LEVEL radiation with soap and water was the correct thing to do. You get more radiation exposure on a long plane flight than these guys got.

Talk about long plane flights is only semi-useful because we don't inhale long plane flights or track long plane flights into our homes, nor do long plane flights contaminate the food chain.

A chart as of March 15 19:00:

http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news_images/pdf/ENGNEWS01_1300189582P.pdf

American in Japan says

I am back in Japan. BTW I flew back to Japan on Swiss Air today (First class upgrade since they needed me to translate). Anyway there were 3 experts on nuclear reactors on the flight from Switzerland heading to Japan to check out the reactor in Fukushima Pref.

Glad to see you're safe. Are you in Tokyo or elsewhere in Japan?

ChrisLA says

getting hit by even the smallest amount of uranium radiation damages immune system.

There is a lot of misinformation on this thread. I don't have time nor am I probably qualified to give Radiation 101, but suffice it to say that you are getting background radiation all the time. Watching TV, eating a banana, getting an X-Ray all expose you to ionizing radiation. The element producing the radiation does not matter--you need to worry about the type of radiation (alpha, beta, gamma, X-Ray, or neutron), the activity of the source, the absorbed dose, or most important the dose equivilent. This is typically measured in REMs in the US or Sieverts as the SI unit (1 Sv = 100 REM)

As a guide, the occupational dose limit is 5 REM/year to the whole body (or 50 mSv)

Hope that helps some.

Some links from JapanToday.

http://japantoday.com/category/national/view/hydrogen-explosion-occurs-at-fukushima-no-1-nuclear-power-plant

http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/work-resumes-to-pump-seawater-into-troubled-nuclear-reactor-unit#comments

I am in Tokyo (not panicking but I will be checking the news, weather and limiting my time outside for now). At least I can spend the time catching up on Patrick.net!

Looks like we've reached the point where this thread is ready to deteriorate into tangential mess, so I'd like to briefly summarize the original thesis and what we've learned so far from research and discussion:

Thesis: There is an escalating nuclear disaster happening in a fission plant on the coast of Japan. Although it seems unlikely, what is the potential for fallout (via atmospheric deposition or ocean currents) reaching the Pacific Coast?

What we've learned:
1. Evidence from contemporary reactor design and past meltdowns INDICATES that radioactive releases will be largely contained and MOSTLY localized.

2. Long range atmospheric distribution of radioactive materials (particulates) is much more of an issue from a bomb blast, where large quantities of radioactives are injected into the upper atmosphere, thereby made available to long-ranging air currents (like the jet stream).

3. Particulate pollution from clouds originating from (ground level) Chinese coal plants HAS BEEN detected in substantial quantities on the West Coast in recent history.

4. While the Pacific ocean does provide a potentially huge pool for particulate dilution, ocean currents DO NOT mix it evenly. Further, we currently DO NOT know for certain how a slug of radioactively contaminated water will circulate and disperse in the Pacific.

5. Radioactive contamination from the Daiichi plant could include uranium, plutonium, cesium, idodine, strontium, among other long-lived and dangerous isotopes. It is these toxic and long-lived particulates that pose the GREATEST danger for long-term and long-range contamination: they persist in the environment for long periods of time, many are readily absorbed in trace amounts, and then can be accumulated to dangerous levels in the human body. IT IS NOT CLEAR to what degree these contaminants HAVE BEEN released at this point in time. IT IS NOT CLEAR to what degree these contaminants WILL BE released in the future.

6. Although the emergency crews have put in a heroic effort to avert a complete meltdown at all of the Daiichi reactors (there are 6), partial meltdowns have likely occured at #1,#2,#3 and the spent fuel in the cooling pool on #4 caught fire (and was later extinguished).

7. Radioactive releases have been reported, and radiation readings downwind have elevated, but not yet to a level that immediately threatens human health. 180,000 people have been moved from the evacuation zone.

8. There is still a risk of full meltdown at the #1,#2,#3 reactors, and risk of the spent fuel cooling pools, which are stored throughout the facility, catching fire. Arguably, the latter scenario carries more danger than the former since the spent rods are not protected by a containment vessel. The #2 reactor seems to be in the worst shape, and potentially has a compromised containment vessel.

9. 50 brave emergency workers remain to keep the affected reactors and cooling pools from overheating further, likely at the risk of their own lives.

10. No one, including the emergency workers, TEPCO, the Japanese government, and the varied voices here, can be sure whether the situation will get worse or better in the short term.

and finally,

11. SINCE this exact event has never played out before in history, we do not know what the outcome will be. THIS is why discussion of the possibilities, however remote, is useful and not an exercise in paranoia. I believe most of us hope for the best, and fear for the safety of the Japanese people.

American in Japan says

I am in Tokyo (not panicking but I will be checking the news, weather and limiting my time outside for now). At least I can spend the time catching up on Patrick.net!

Good luck to you!

tatupu70 says

There is a lot of misinformation on this thread. I don’t have time nor am I probably qualified to give Radiation 101, but suffice it to say that you are getting background radiation all the time. Watching TV, eating a banana, getting an X-Ray all expose you to ionizing radiation. The element producing the radiation does not matter–you need to worry about the type of radiation (alpha, beta, gamma, X-Ray, or neutron), the activity of the source, the absorbed dose, or most important the dose equivilent. This is typically measured in REMs in the US or Sieverts as the SI unit (1 Sv = 100 REM)
As a guide, the occupational dose limit is 5 REM/year to the whole body (or 50 mSv)
Hope that helps some.

Where are you guys getting this stuff from? Grade school science books? 1960's era civil defense manuals? Cereal boxes?

In all seriousness, much of this type of reasoning seems to be focused on the acute dosage one would receive from a nuclear detonation. While this is relevant to a nuclear bomb blast, it is not really relevant to a discussion of the effects of fission plant nuclear meltdown and subsequent pollution over long distances.

Do you understand that if you ingest trace amounts of radioactive cesium or strontium it will accumulate over time in your body, replacing normal elements like potassium and calcium? Imagine the blood cancer risk resultant from having a radioactive skeleton. And the problem is compounded by bioaccumulation through the food chain. This means that low levels of radioactive dust over grass gets concentrated by cows eating the grass, and further concentrated in humans eating the cows.

And don't just take my word for it:

From the handbook on the toxicology of metals

http://books.google.com/books?id=nKulgztuzL8C&pg=PA276&lpg=PA276&dq=bioaccumulation+radioactive+cesium&source=bl&ots=QRRO9esdYw&sig=8S8ppPu32s-bNlk1UqPEV4oep38&hl=en&ei=GaZ_TbnsO4KGuQPvwMjQBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

@TerriDeaner

"Thesis: There is an escalating nuclear disaster happening in a fusion plant on the coast of Japan."

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you mean *fission* plant?

Anyway thanks... I am remaining calm, just trying to learn the latest.

Nomograph says

That’s correct. A nuclear bomb detonation is much worse. A single nuclear bomb can flatten an entire city.

I agree. The stuff I see written by people is so stupid and illogical that it isn't funny. At least I used to work at a nuclear plant, and don't expect this situation to amount to much, as long as the can pump in seawater until they get the regular systems working, they'll be fine.

You don't see Cherynobyl style nuclear reactors in palce like the US or Japan.

Besides that, the Japanese are accustomed to earthquakes, tsunami's, and getting nuked; they'll be fine.

terriDeaner says

Do you understand that if you ingest trace amounts of radioactive cesium or strontium it will accumulate over time in your body

You are already ingesting trace elements of all kinds of things that you would probably rather not have. It's unavoidable in a modern society, and there is really nothing you can do about it.

Vicente says

The premise of this thread, worrying about US fallout, is a sign of the USA total preoccupation with itself and it’s poor grasp of basic science. This is far more of a blow to the JAPANESE people, their economy, and by extension I suppose global economies. Ecological disaster or cancer hazard for US is WAY down the list. I am not Japanese, never been there, but obviously they have tragically more close up experience with fallout and they do not seem from afar to be in full panic.

Actually, the premise of this thread is a consequence of my preoccupation with global events and assessment of the probability of 'black swan' events. The events befalling the Japanese are tragic. Sadly, the possible negative outcomes for people and places NEAR the fallout are well understood from past events.

American in Japan says

@TerriDeaner
“Thesis: There is an escalating nuclear disaster happening in a fusion plant on the coast of Japan.”
Correct me if I am wrong, but don’t you mean *fission* plant?
Anyway thanks I am remaining calm, but trying to learn the latest.

Oops, you're right - I'll fix that.

@Troy

"Tokyo Governor Ishihara may be an asshole but he recently said the tsunami disaster might wake up Japan from its greed."

I hope so (the first part is true, but I mean for the second part).

Winds are shifting away from Tokyo from tomorrow, but I am checking updates.

zzyzzx says

Nomograph says

That’s correct. A nuclear bomb detonation is much worse. A single nuclear bomb can flatten an entire city.

I agree. The stuff I see written by people is so stupid and illogical that it isn’t funny. At least I used to work at a nuclear plant, and don’t expect this situation to amount to much, as long as the can pump in seawater until they get the regular systems working, they’ll be fine.
You don’t see Cherynobyl style nuclear reactors in palce like the US or Japan.
Besides that, the Japanese are accustomed to earthquakes, tsunami’s, and getting nuked; they’ll be fine.

Ah,so flippant. What did you do at the plant... build scaffolding and drink coffee?

@zzyzzx

"Besides that, the Japanese are accustomed to earthquakes, tsunami’s, and getting nuked; they’ll be fine."

I agree with the first two but not the third...

Did you really work at a nuclear power plant?

Do you know about the pebble bed cooling system? It is a much better cooling sytem, but has unfortunately not been used in Japan (or the US).

Terri--

It's not grade school, but it's not rocket science either. And my point seems to have been lost on you--radiation is radiation, whether it comes from a nuclear bomb, a meltdown, or fiestaware dishes. It doesn't matter. That's why scientists developed a system of measuring dose equivilents.

Now, if you want to talk about the biological effects of eating cesium or strontium, that's a different matter entirely. Radioactive or not, that's a bad idea.

zzyzzx says

Probably for the first and last time ever. I think the point here is that you have more important things to worry about than trace amounts of stuff that you can’t do anything about.

You two are most certainly entitled to blissful ignorance if you like. I'd rather be prepared.

Things are quiet here...not many people going out. Not dead, but about 20% of the usual number of people. Many stores have closed early, some have closed for days...

tatupu70 says

Terri–

It’s not grade school, but it’s not rocket science either. And my point seems to have been lost on you–radiation is radiation, whether it comes from a nuclear bomb, a meltdown, or fiestaware dishes. It doesn’t matter. That’s why scientists developed a system of measuring dose equivilents.

No, it wasn't lost. Try to imagine how many dose equivalents you would receive from the following series of events: taking a nap in an enclosed room, walking clothed on a cloudy day across a parking lot, sunbathing at the beach for an afternoon, visiting a uranium mine while wearing a filter mask, being exposed to a single gamma radiation burst from an accident at a nuclear power plant, OR carrying a lump of radioactive uranium in your pants pocket for 25 years.

My point is that if your body accumulates and holds onto biologically active radioisotopes, you will receive a CUMULATIVE DOSE that will put you at far greater risk of health problems. Sure, the type of radiation will affect the cumulative dose to some degree, but since it is coming from INSIDE your body, no amount of foil hat therapy or soapy washes will fix the problem.

No, radiation is not radiation.

#5 and #6 spent fuel storage tanks failing and causing some VERY nasty shit to burn itself up in an uncontrolled conflagration would emit literally tons of radioactive particulates into the atmosphere.

While in any one given area this might not be a higher background radiation than the 40 uSv of a planeride, it would utterly destroy the farms and be highly disruptive to human activity until it was cleaned up.

The background hotspots of the Chernobyl area run at 300 microsieverts/hr now. TEPCO is not too far away from that now, depending on which way the wind is blowing.

zzyzzx says

as long as the can pump in seawater until they get the regular systems working, they’ll be fine.

Actually, no. Since they've allowed 2 or 3 cores to partially melt down, the reactor water is now polluted and venting the steam from these units will introduce more radioactive crap outside the plant.

Complicating matters is that unit 2 partially melted down on Monday AND has a blown secondary pressure containment (the suppression pool), so steam vented from the reactor vessel will quickly end up in the container building (which is apparently now holed thanks to its neighboring units blowing up).

And it's also still possible that further uncontrolled heating will result in full meltdowns in any of the active units, allowing the fuel to go critical again.

I’m 95% sure the situation won’t get any worse than it is now, but this event is not over yet.

Uranium isn't the problem, Cesium and Plutonium (in unit #3 and the spent fuel rods) are.