patrick.net

wagamama says

We made out by selling at the peak of the market and had 250K to put down, leaving us with a max’ed out conventional mortgage.

I'm just really confused by the post that started this thread. You're seeking "permanence" but your own experience of house owning suggests significant impermanence. I'm understanding what you wrote to mean you were owning a house and sold it in the last three years or so, moved into an apartment, and now are moving again into a house you bought for $650k.

I think money is driving your decisions and with so much of it on the line in owning a house, I think your decisions will definitely derive from your ownership. That is certainly "permanence" in that much of your thinking will now be based on the money you've spent on the house. That condition of thinking, though, has so far seemed very precarious to me.

I'm basing my comments on the idea that $650k is a large amount of money relative net worth. If someone's net worth is many millions, then maybe $650k is not that much to spend.

Isn't it strange to others that we are so willing to spend so much borrowed money on houses? I think it has reached a point of abstraction that few comprehend. This is why Patrick provides so much information here around the disparity between the very rich and the rest in the U.S. Most of us can't even comprehend what it's like to be the very rich. Our comprehension is so low, we willingly spend all the money we have plus a multiple of that amount borrowed from the very rich just to say/think we own our place of shelter. For this reason, I completely agree with someone from Ohio saying there's much to be desired in California. The condition of home ownership here is onerous, at best.

Still, we all have the potential to spend less and live more like the very rich.

uni6jon2 says

Admittedly, some of these things just have inexplainable connections for me and cause me to smile deeply, but there are also some very basic reaons why California living is highly valued.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand that many Californians (over)value things like temperature relative to other equally/more important factors that determine overall quality of life... I just surprises me that they do. After all, there is this new invention called the 'coat' that is all the rage out east!

Plus, SF weather is not all that great all the time. Unless blustery, 50ish('F) mid-June days are your idea of great summertime weather.

uni6jon2 says

Walking(maybe unique to San Francisco and SoCal/SilVal are still strong car driving cultures), eating, music, learning, and temperature are really enjoyable parts of living.

You can enjoy these things in many US cities and in cities elsewhere in the world. San Francisco, while a fun place to be, is not the only place on earth that is worth living in.

uni6jon2 says

For this reason, I completely agree with someone from Ohio saying there’s much to be desired in California.

?

The only someone here who identified themselves as being from Ohio said something quite the opposite:

StoutFiles says

It’s insane how different most of California is from the rest of the country. Here in Ohio, 675k would buy you a mega mansion…you’d have the nicest house in the county! I just can’t fathom spending that much money on a house, and as an engineer I make decent money.

The thought of putting myself in a situation where I could have almost half a million dollars of debt makes me woozy. You all should just leave CA and live like kings elsewhere if you have so much money to throw away on, as Patrick said, a big box that rots in the rain.

terriDeaner says

The only someone here who identified themselves as being from Ohio said something quite the opposite:

Yes, I'm not supporting buying a standard house at a incredibly inflated price. I've been to CA, it's nice! Yosemite was very impressive (the real jewel of CA)...but CA wasn't world's better than any of the states I've been to (around 35). Every state has its pro's and con's...but not many put you in a mountain of debt to live in a quality house in a good town.

I find it humorous that people think California is this magical place that is irreplaceable anywhere else, and all other states are basically the boonies. Restaurants and entertainment are not exclusive to California. Culture is not exclusive to California. Technology like movies, music, the internet...it's the same everywhere. Many states have good weather year round.

All it is is an overpriced, overcrowded, incredibly bankrupt state. If just some of you looking for these half mil houses would venture out of there, you could buy something equally nice for half the price and then use the extra money to vacation to places that are really worth being in. Having no debt...what a crazy thought!

StoutFiles says

If just some of you looking for these half mil houses would venture out of there, you could buy something equally nice for half the price

the problem is in Ohio they wouldn't have the job to support a half mil dollar mortgage.

toothfairy says

StoutFiles says

If just some of you looking for these half mil houses would venture out of there, you could buy something equally nice for half the price

the problem is in Ohio they wouldn’t have the job to support a half mil dollar mortgage.

Neither does CA. That is the problem. Avg. salary in CA = $68K. Avg. salary in OH = $53K.

And for the record, there are plenty of high paying jobs in OH...

toothfairy says

the problem is in Ohio they wouldn’t have the job to support a half mil dollar mortgage.

Well at least ~12% or so of Californians definitely don't have the job to support a half-mil mortgage(calculatedriskblog):

tatupu70 says

Neither does CA. That is the problem. Avg. salary in CA = $68K. Avg. salary in OH = $53K.

And for the record, there are plenty of high paying jobs in OH…

Zing!

tatupu70 says

Neither does CA. That is the problem. Avg. salary in CA = $68K. Avg. salary in OH = $53K.

actually for the area we're talking about the average salary is more like $100k

toothfairy says

tatupu70 says

Neither does CA. That is the problem. Avg. salary in CA = $68K. Avg. salary in OH = $53K.

actually for the area we’re talking about the average salary is more like $100k

OK--I thought we were talking about CA. What area of OH are we talking about then? Let's keep it apples to apples.

tatupu70 says

What area of OH are we talking about then? Let’s keep it apples to apples.

if it's apples to apples then show me which part of Ohio has an average salary of 100k
and what are the house prices like there.

toothfairy says

if it’s apples to apples then show me which part of Ohio has an average salary of 100k
and what are the house prices like there.

That's part of what I'm talking about! If you make 100k/year, why must everyone live in the designated "100k" area where houses are too expensive? Do people love debt? It's as if everyone needs to push their money as far as it'll go for a house.

I can find areas of Ohio around the big cities (Cincy, Columbus, Cleveland) where houses are overpriced...what does that prove? Every state has those areas. What I'm saying is while Cali's average salary is a little higher, the average home price is A LOT higher. You aren't getting close to good value there.

StoutFiles says

All it is is an overpriced, overcrowded, incredibly bankrupt state. If just some of you looking for these half mil houses would venture out of there, you could buy something equally nice for half the price and then use the extra money to vacation to places that are really worth being in. Having no debt…what a crazy thought!

CA has 50% better weather. :-)

StoutFiles says

What I’m saying is while Cali’s average salary is a little higher, the average home price is A LOT higher. You aren’t getting close to good value there.

When you say "A LOT," you do realize it's $54k higher versus national:

CA's median price is $249k
http://www.dqnews.com/Articles/2011/News/California/RRCA110414.aspx

Nationally, it is $195k
http://www.dqnews.com/Articles/2011/News/US/RRUS110404.aspx

For the same sq ft? The same lot size?

StoutFiles says

For the same sq ft? The same lot size?

If those questions are directed to me, you are asking for specifics of a very broad generalization. Even though I put numbers up there with a comparison of CA versus the US, it's a pretty silly comparison. CA includes Modesto where you could get a large house on a large lot for $200k and Palo Alto where you get a small house on a small lot for $1M+. You can't realistically compare averages or medians of a state the size and population of CA. Pick a section and compare that. Even SF is too broad to really compare. If you buy in the area where you're gonna get shot, the price isn't that bad. If you buy with a view of the GG Bridge, the price is very high.

ch_tah says

When you say “A LOT,” you do realize it’s $54k higher versus national:

CA’s median price is $249k
http://www.dqnews.com/Articles/2011/News/California/RRCA110414.aspx

Nationally, it is $195k
http://www.dqnews.com/Articles/2011/News/US/RRUS110404.aspx

Where do the rest of the states fall in this price distribution?

terriDeaner says

I just surprises me that they do. After all, there is this new invention called the ‘coat’ that is all the rage out east!
Plus, SF weather is not all that great all the time. Unless blustery, 50ish(’F) mid-June days are your idea of great summertime weather.

That is exactly how the costs start to even out. Coats!! Man, those things are expensive! Hats, gloves, snowblowers, house insulation(although I disagree with houses not having insulation in San Francisco because of the energy waste). A constant, costly struggle against the elements, I tell you. Some people do seem to enjoy it. Similarly a fair number of people now live in deserts thanks to technology that counteracts their own body's inability to survive the climate where they set up home.

Not to mention the annual cost of heating a house. If you're willing to wear a long sleeve shirt or, even more powerfully, A SWEATER, indoors during two months of the year, you could easily gas heat a two-story three or four bedroom house in San Francisco for $500/year.

Any adherence to traditions like "summer days are for hot weather" starts to wear down reason. San Francisco summer days are very, very comfortable but get a lot of notice because they can be just as cool in August as they can in January. Don't forget the opposite is true, though! We can have warm weather days approaching 80 in December, January, and February and that's even fairly expected after twelve "winters" of living here. This year is an extreme example and yet we've still maintained average rain levels. There's just not extremes here like most places and cities in the U.S. The weather here is not matched anywhere else in the U.S. and may only have a close approximation in the world around the Mediterranean Sea.

I've seen "walkable" city charts occasionally and there are some surpisingly walkable cities in places that would only be walkable during warm months. I lived in Portland, OR before San Francisco and, while walkable, is still far, far too big to cover the entire city walking. If you decide you want to walk to any location in San Francisco, it doesn't take much health, endurance to do it.

terriDeaner says

Where do the rest of the states fall in this price distribution?

Dunno. I don't see it on DQ. They only have CA by state; everything else is by city. It's almost as if they think CA is better than other parts of the country.

uni6jon2 says

Not to mention the annual cost of heating a house.

This is an interesting point, but I'd like to see some quantification before drawing too many conclusions. After all, the rest of the country is non-uniform in terms of winter severity and summertime heat.

uni6jon2 says

Don’t forget the opposite is true, though! We can have warm weather days approaching 80 in December, January, and February

So can many other parts of the country. And don't forget tourists can enjoy this weather here, on vacation for much less than it costs to live here year round.

uni6jon2 says

I’ve seen “walkable” city charts occasionally and there are some surpisingly walkable cities in places that would only be walkable during warm months. I lived in Portland, OR before San Francisco and, while walkable, is still far, far too big to cover the entire city walking. If you decide you want to walk to any location in San Francisco, it doesn’t take much health, endurance to do it.

I dunno, try walking from Union Square up Mason street to the Tonga Room sometime. And if walkability is your thing, try Manhattan - even smaller and flatter.

terriDeaner says

try Manhattan sometime - even smaller and flatter.

Yeah, those Manhattan prices...very affordable.

ch_tah says

It’s almost as if they think CA is better than other parts of the country.

This might have something to do with it:

Contact Us
Learn how DataQuick can drive your business faster
Corporate Headquarters
Address: 9620 Towne Centre Drive, San Diego, CA 92121
Phone: 858.597.3100

ch_tah says

terriDeaner says

try Manhattan sometime - even smaller and flatter.

Yeah, those Manhattan prices…very affordable.

So there ARE more important things to consider when purchasing property than temperature and walkability, even for Californians?! (assuming you are one, ch_tah)

uni6jon2 says

The weather here is not matched anywhere else in the U.S. and may only have a close approximation in the world around the Mediterranean Sea.

Sounds like you've found a good place for your tastes...

terriDeaner says

This might have something to do with it:

Contact Us
Learn how DataQuick can drive your business faster
Corporate Headquarters
Address: 9620 Towne Centre Drive, San Diego, CA 92121
Phone: 858.597.3100

Ah, another one of those businesses that is surviving the oppressive, anti-business state of California.

ch_tah says

Ah, another one of those businesses that is surviving the oppressive, anti-business state of California.

For now. Most of the employees there are probably forced to drive used chevys and take all of their business lunches at 'Wendy's', though...

terriDeaner says

So there ARE more important things to consider when purchasing property than temperature and walkability, even for Californians?! (assuming you are one, ch_tah)

I'm not sure what's most important. I would think they are all factors (price, walkability, jobs, weather, diversity, etc.) For now, it seems like people are willing to pay a bit more for those other factors for places in NYC and parts of CA.

terriDeaner says

Not to mention the annual cost of heating a house.
This is an interesting point, but I’d like to see some quantification before drawing too many conclusions. After all, the rest of the country is non-uniform in terms of winter severity and summertime heat.

This data on "heating" and "cooling" days is not easy to understand, but a start. I've wondered how much price/kWhr is adjusted by PGE to compensate for the fact that San Franciscans don't, generally, need air conditioning. That data is not accounted for at all here.

http://www.homeinsight.com/home-value/ca/san_francisco.asp

ch_tah says

Don’t forget the opposite is true, though! We can have warm weather days approaching 80 in December, January, and February
So can many other parts of the country. And don’t forget tourists can enjoy this weather here, on vacation for much less than it costs to live here year round.

I know I'm not taking time to write clearly, but I meant warm weather in winter months is normal for San Francisco. That was definitely not true where I grew up in Colorado, but it did happen occasionally in that very sunny state. It might even happen once or twice a year. In San Francisco, warm weather is common for weeks of the winter. This winter was a joke. We basically had no winter so far. Some would say we made up for it last August, but, again, that's us Californians complaining because it goes into the fifties(F) in August. No surprise and a good time to break out those stylish jackets(what we wear instead of coats.)

terriDeaner says

I dunno, try walking from Union Square up Mason street to the Tonga Room sometime. And if walkability is your thing, try Manhattan - even smaller and flatter.

Well, I think stats around fitness show different standards for California too. ; ) There are some steep streets here. I live on Potrero Hill, so get to walk up steep ones regularly. I need the activity, though, as my exercising time seems to be shrinking to zero. Making your commute exercise is helpful living in a lot of ways.

I love Manhattan! Wouldn't want to walk much there in January or July or February or August or November or March or December though. I already take the car barely over a mile to work most days. I haven't shown myself to be organized by priorities in that regard. I probably walk to work a third of the year at most.

Ummm...uni6jon2...change your quote above - I didn't say that.

ch_tah says

Ummm…uni6jon2…change your quote above - I didn’t say that.

ch_tah is right... that quote was from me.

uni6jon2 says

I love Manhattan! Wouldn’t want to walk much there in January or July or February or August or November or March or December though.

Too bad... walking through the falling snow is one of my favorite winter activities. And summer nights are great for being outdoors. You just need to dress for the weather and know when to avoid the worst of it (see the bit on the 'coat' above).

ch_tah says

I’m not sure what’s most important. I would think they are all factors (price, walkability, jobs, weather, diversity, etc.) For now, it seems like people are willing to pay a bit more for those other factors for places in NYC and parts of CA.

If home prices hadn't been gamed by selling mortage bundles as investments, I might think differently. I've just found that buying a house seems to compromise nearly every other aspect of life.

There are two aspects of life buying a house still satisfies. Social conformity and saving money for those who find it difficult. These seem like very sound reasons for buying a house. Nonconformity in society is very, very difficult and stressful for most people. Just look at men's haircuts! Clearly, contemporary humans are more calm and comfortable conforming. When I realized American home ownership was well above fifty percent, I gained a much greater understanding of the dynamics around home ownership. I grew up poor and have still never lived in an owned home, so I had thought for years that home ownership was very difficult to achieve. I've sinced realized how easy it can be, with recent years showing the EXTREME ease.

Many people find it very difficult to save money or be comfortable only spending money they've made or saved themselves. Building some savings into your monthly shelter payment, which you've probably regularly practiced throughout life paying rent at first, seems reasonable to me. I have many friends who would probably not save otherwise and I support their home ownership for that reason.

I don't know...

I live within 15 miles of 4 amazing beaches, I have hiking and mountain bike trails right outside my door, I do have 4 seasons, winter gets cold but we consider 60 degrees very cold and 40 freezing (disaster). From April - End of November I am in the pool when I come home from the beach. The sky is blue 280 days a year. Within a car ride of 10min. I have literally every store from Best Buy to 100's of Mom and Pop Stores. Restaurants in every style you can imagine of. And did I mention the weather? :)

I plan BBQ's all year long. They never get canceled due to shitty weather.

Then there are all the millions of things you can do in CA when you don't want to stay home. Palm Springs, Vegas (4hr car ride from LA), Take a ride up the coast, San Diego, the entire Huntington Beach Area is fun to hang out. National Parks, Fishing, Magic Mountain...the list is too long.

CA is not really overrated. It is fantastic!

SubOink says

I live within 15 miles of 4 amazing beaches, I have hiking and mountain bike trails right outside my door, [...] Then there are all the millions of things you can do in CA when you don’t want to stay home.

Don't get me wrong - the natural beauty here is fantastic. And there is lots to do. It's just that California is not the only place in this country (or elsewhere on earth) that has lots going for it. You just have to be willing to look for it, and willing to consider that climate-controlled, boring-ass, blue sky days are not the be-all, end-all in this life.

SubOink says

And did I mention the weather? :)

Did you? I'm not sure. I've never before heard that California has nice weather... Tell me more.

terriDeaner says

SubOink says

I live within 15 miles of 4 amazing beaches, I have hiking and mountain bike trails right outside my door, […] Then there are all the millions of things you can do in CA when you don’t want to stay home.

Don’t get me wrong - the natural beauty here is fantastic. And there is lots to do. It’s just that California is not the only place in this country (or elsewhere on earth) that has lots going for it. You just have to be willing to look for it, and willing to consider that climate-controlled, boring-ass, blue sky days are not the be-all, end-all in this life.

SubOink says

And did I mention the weather?

Did you? I’m not sure. I’ve never before heard that California has nice weather… Tell me more.

We're just talking about why prices are higher in CA than somewhere else. Can you live somewhere else too? Yes, you can. Nobody says that you cannot live somewhere else. I grew up with having months and months of rainy, shitty weather...but I survived just fine. Did I hate it? Yes.

But there are parts that are more desirable than others in this world = > they go for more money in rent, home prices etc...

The thing about the weather. If blue sky's are so boring then why is it that every vacation package you find out there has something to do with a beach, sunshine, warm weather? It's what people seek because sunshine makes you feel good. So the whole world that lives in rainy parts wants to be in nice weather on their vacation.

Well, we live in that weather year round and that's what makes it nicer than somewhere else and so we are willing to pay more for houses than in buttf$ck Ohio (for example).

But you are right. Whenever I want to tease my buddy's back east I write them (in November) "Ah, its so shitty today, got sunburned yesterday on the beach, A/C running all day, can't sleep because its sooo hot and no end of this boring blue sky, terrible...just terrible.." - and you know what they usually answer me back with ..."F U" :)

SubOink says

I grew up with having months and months of rainy, shitty weather…but I survived just fine. Did I hate it? Yes.

Aw C'mon suboink, are you made of sugar or something? Man up, it's only water!

SubOink says

The thing about the weather. If blue sky’s are so boring then why is it that every vacation package you find out there has something to do with a beach, sunshine, warm weather?

Because typically the people who purchase such vacation packages have souls as empty and cruel as the unforgiving vacuum of a cloudless blue sky. Duh! Seriously though, if I wanted the same, tedious, climate-controlled weather every day I'd just drive myself to the mall and hang out at the food court.

SubOink says

Well, we live in that weather year round and that’s what makes it nicer than somewhere else and so we are willing to pay more for houses than in buttf$ck Ohio (for example).

Well that's just it, right? For many people, here and out-of-state, the weather is not worth the over-leveraging lots of folks here have undertaken to buy a house in California.

And although I've never been to buttf$ck Ohio, I have been to buttsf$ck... and the weather was DELIGHTFUL!

terriDeaner says

Because typically the people who purchase such vacation packages have souls as empty and cruel as the unforgiving vacuum of a cloudless blue sky. Duh! Seriously though, if I wanted the same, tedious, climate-controlled weather every day I’d just drive myself to the mall and hang out at the food court.

So if you crave warm weather you are an empty soul? Wow!

While you're at the mall...I'd rather be outside hiking thru canyons...but I am probably just an empty soul and cruel as the unforgiving vacuum of the cloudless sky.

Pretty interesting discussion.