patrick.net

sfbubblebuyer says

Religion is by definition false.

What exactly do you mean by that? I have an answer for this, but would be curious to hear yours.

Funeral according to Islamic Law within 24 hours at sea = No complaints from the Muslim world about disrespect + No grave site = No monuments to terror or furor over mistreatment of the remains = Fewer future terrorists inspired by visiting the momument/gravesite or being inspired by rage over mistreatment of the remains = Big coup for containing retaliation

Win, win, win, win, win, win! :)

By the way Muslims follow the same burial Laws as Orthodox Jews do. You bury the dead within 24 hours. The burial at sea according to Islamic Law was sheer genius.

jvolstad says

I hear he was wrapped in bacon.

Mmmm... bacon...

Ray, I meant exactly what I said. Prefacing religion with false is redundant, no matter what religion you care to apply it to. When people stick that 'false' tag in front of a religion, they're implying that the religion so labeled is somehow less true than some other religion, which is patently ridiculous. Religions are based on belief, which is non-observable and non-verifiable, thus have no value on a 'true' or 'false' scale. If you must assign a value on such a scale to one religion, all religious would have the same value as they are all equally verifiable, making the label redundant.

I'm quite certain that under the variant of Southern Baptist I grew up under, about 99% of other religious people worship "falsely" and must burn in hell. SFbubblebuyer is right on target here.

AFAIK our military honors religious burial requirements unless there is some operational reason not to. We even reburied the bodies of those Soviet sailors extracted from the wreckage in Project Azorian. What did you want to pee on the body or something Ray?

Troy says

LOL, the Democraps can’t even kill Osama right.

You'll get no argument here.

ChrisLA says

I doubt they did, probably simply a PR statement to quite the masses.

Alright someone that gets it!

Vicente says

about 99% of other religious people worship “falsely” and must burn in hell. SFbubblebuyer is right on target here.

I believe on a South Park episode it was determined that Mormonism was the correct religion.

You didn't answer my question, Ray. What would you have done?

RayAmerica says

Who gave the order for such nonsense?

Who gave YOU the place to question burial practice?

Did we run the bodies of the Rosenbergs up and down the street, and leave their heads on pikes? No.

Exactly how is it "nonsense" to honor the few requirements of an Islamic burial, wash the body, put it in a white sheet and over the side? What is a "religious funeral" to you? Did the crew have to convert or something?

Burial at sea solves the problem nicely. There's a whole fascination about where did Hitler's bones end up that we'll avoid.

Mark .... I would not have complied with Bin Laden's "religion" re: his burial. OBL was a mass murderer, and was so based on his "religious" beliefs. Any compliance with honoring Bin Laden's "religion" is in effect sanctioning those radical beliefs. Consider this: what if there was a mass murderer of children, and his "religion" mandated the blood sacrifice of those children. If we killed that person, would we honor him by providing a burial according to his "religion?" Of course not. Then why would we honor Bin Laden's "religion?"

simchaland says

By the way Muslims follow the same burial Laws as Orthodox Jews do. You bury the dead within 24 hours. The burial at sea according to Islamic Law was sheer genius.

Simchaland ... I guess you have a different take on "Islamic Law?"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110502/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_bin_laden_sea_burial

RayAmerica says

Consider this: what if there was a mass murderer of children, and his “religion” mandated the blood sacrifice of those children. If we killed that person, would we honor him by providing a burial according to his “religion?” Of course not.

We've had tons of mass murders, most of them had some sort of known religious affiliation. Please list off some of those cases where we have deliberately denied burial in the last century.

You seem curiously fascinated by this, which to most people is an afterthought compared to the part before it.

RayAmerica says

OBL was a mass murderer, and was so based on his “religious” beliefs.

This site agrees with that: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/call_to_muslims.htm

But the Old Testament also praises the attempted ritual murder of a child by his father. And there is a definite promotion of genocide in 1 Samuel 15:3:

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’

RayAmerica says

Then why would we honor Bin Laden’s “religion?”

Freedom of religion is a very basic American belief. Do you know it's in the U.S. Constitution? It's in what's known as "The First Amendment" in a section called "The Bill of Rights." There was a really cool and interesting exhibit on the subject last time I was at the Newseum in Washington D.C. I recommend it.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html

You know what matters?

Burial circumstances seems pretty pale next to that. But I guess Ray has to find SOME sort of flaw in how all this was handled. Admitting Obama succeeded and just leaving it at that would make his head explode.

RayAmerica says

ny compliance with honoring Bin Laden’s “religion” is in effect sanctioning those radical beliefs.

If they got a radical cleric that followed Osama's brand of radical jihad, then I might agree with you. But if he was just a regular Muslim cleric, then I don't see it as sanctioning Osama's beliefs any more than we're sanctioning Osama's beliefs when we let a cleric perform last rights on a fallen Muslim service member.

We allow spiritual counseling and last rights for the worst murders we impose the death penalty on. It's part of our Judeo-Christian heritage. I don't see a problem with it.

BTW, this piece might interest you:

U.S. Muslims...greeted the news of Osama bin Laden's death with a sense of relief Monday as well as jubilation.
....
"I believe this is an important milestone in bringing closure to the deep wound that 9/11 created in America and our community in lower Manhattan," said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who had been working to build an Islamic community center near ground zero before a rift with developers.
....
"As an American Muslim, his death is exciting to us. This is also a chance for people who are non-Arab or had a different view of American Muslins to see that we're as happy as they are," Halees said. "Because that's not what we support. Our religion as true Muslims doesn't support any violence like that."

http://online.wsj.com/article/APb7f0fb3fceab431885133969c3cbef36.html

MarkInSF says

U.S. Muslims…greeted the news of Osama bin Laden’s death with a sense of relief Monday as well as jubilation.

Exactly my point. Rational U.S. Muslims that reject the radicalism of OBL which inspired him to commit these hideous crimes, have nothing in common with him. OBL's "religion" actually represents only a small fraction of Islam, so why honor the murderer with an Islamic burial?

FunTime says

Freedom of religion is a very basic American belief. Do you know it’s in the U.S. Constitution?

The really interesting bit is whether you should have the freedom of religion to say "death to the followers of all other religions".

What's the most basic law that cannot be questioned? Is it the Constitution or the Koran?

But the Old Testament also praises the attempted ritual murder of a child by his father.

Obviously, you miss the entire point of the account of Abraham and Isaac. The OT does not "praise" what your refer to as "ritual murder." If you read the well known account, it was God himself that directed Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac as a test of faith on the part of Abraham. Why? Because God had already given Abraham his word that through his seed (Isaac) the nations of the world would be blessed, and Abraham, being a man of faith, knew that God could not break his own covenant with Abraham, etc. As far as your reference to the Amalekites, they were a heathen nation that was the enemy of Israel (and the God of Israel). It was God himself that gave the order to slay the Amalekites, so I guess your argument would be with him. Other accounts in which God displays his sovereignty over his creation are numerous. Take a look at Moses' dealings with Pharoh in Egypt. All those plagues and the death of the Egyptian's first born as punishment for not allowing captive Israel to leave Egypt, while the first born of Israel was passed over (hence the Passover celebration).

RayAmerica says

Exactly my point. Rational U.S. Muslims that reject the radicalism of OBL which inspired him to commit these hideous crimes, have nothing in common with him. OBL’s “religion” actually represents only a small fraction of Islam, so why honor the murderer with an Islamic burial?

Well, I see your point, Ray. If we had not, I suspect many regular moderate Muslims that hated him would take it as a slight on their their religion if the military did not allow last rights to be performed. Like I said, we even give our mostsers a bit of respect in death. I don't know though, I wonder how the moderate Muslims feel about it. If zogby could somehow take a poll of moderate Sunni's, and more than 1/2 thought he should not have been allowed last rights, then I think I would agree with you, but I suspect that is not the case.

RayAmerica says

simchaland says

By the way Muslims follow the same burial Laws as Orthodox Jews do. You bury the dead within 24 hours. The burial at sea according to Islamic Law was sheer genius.

Simchaland … I guess you have a different take on “Islamic Law?”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110502/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_bin_laden_sea_burial

Rayray, I see you are still up to your usual tricks.

If you actually read the article you would see that the clerics who were criticizing were the radical clerics you've been railing against.

The majority of Muslims won't find issue with the way this burial was handled because according to most Muslims, Islamic Law was followed. That article got the extremist viewpoint. But then again, Rayray, you, and people like you, only see the extremes. Most of the rest of the world lives in the middle FWIW...

Nice try but it's a shot and a miss... Try again...

-Overheard in a mosque in Pakistan-

Aazim: The infidels killed Osama with a bullet through his head, we must riot, burn their embassies, and kill innocent westerners!

Abdul: Aazim, Aazim, quiet down now, they gave him a proper Islamic burial at sea!

Aazim: Oh. Really? Never mind then. Have you seen my prayer rug?

BD

bulletdodger says

-Overheard in a mosque in Pakistan-
Aazim: The infidels killed Osama with a bullet through his head, we must riot, burn their embassies, and kill innocent westerners!
Abdul: Aazim, Aazim, quiet down now, they gave him a proper Islamic burial at sea!
Aazim: Oh. Really? Never mind then. Have you seen my prayer rug?
BD

Beautiful!

What’s the most basic law that cannot be questioned? Is it the Constitution or the Koran?

It's certainly neither, but both got us closer to realizing the understanding of peace that is inside every person whether they are connected to that peace or not.

bulletdodger says

Abdul: Aazim, Aazim, quiet down now, they gave him a proper Islamic burial at sea!

While I take this to be written in sarcasm, your suggestion is, believe it or not, valid. The problem with not giving him a burial under the customs of his upbringing is that you WOULD engage the entire Muslim community. At least this way, you have a chance of limiting negative thoughts to the organization bin Laden formed with a connection to Islam most Muslims reject. The country of his birth revoked his citizenship! He does not represent a major religion.

"When you kill a man it costs nothing to be polite." -- Winston Churchill

I don't get it. Why does Ray care how Bin Laden's body was disposed of? What would he do? Did he personally want to be put in a room so that he could defile the body in obscene, dispicable ways offensive to all religions?

The man's dead. It is his soul that will be judged by the actions he took in life. You probably don't get brownie points for what was done with your remains. And, you probably don't get pity points for the obscene, dispicable, offensive things Ray does to your remains after you've died. And, even if you could get brownie or pity points, it'd probably still not be enough to change where Bin Laden's soul is going.

So, I just don't get it. Why should Ray care?

Ryan1781 says

don’t get it. Why does Ray care how Bin Laden’s body was disposed of? What would he do? Did he personally want to be put in a room so that he could defile the body in obscene, dispicable ways offensive to all religions?

Ray never offers an opinion on what should be done, he only criticizes what others have done providing that others are anyone not an extreme right wing conservative. Conservatives can never do any wrong.

bob2356 says

Conservatives can never do any wrong.

Reminds me of something Richard Milhouse Nixon said:

"When the President does it, that means it's not illegal".

http://youtu.be/ejvyDn1TPr8

RayAmerica version:

"Anything a Democrat President does, is always wrong".

FunTime says

bulletdodger says

Abdul: Aazim, Aazim, quiet down now, they gave him a proper Islamic burial at sea!

The problem with not giving him a burial under the customs of his upbringing is that you WOULD engage the entire Muslim community.

He does not represent a major religion.

Just so I have this right:

OBL does not represent a major religion, but an 'improper' burial would engage the entire Muslim community?

This is all very confusing.

BD

Let's make it simple for you bulletdodger,

Here's 2 news items:

1) 2 soldiers and a contractor were killed in Iraq today.....moving on to sports....,.

2) VIDEO OF AMERICANS WHO WERE TORTURED, BURNED AND LEFT HANGING FROM A BRIDGE

News story #1 won't generate much heat. News story #2 would probably enrage any who watched it even those who aren't otherwise disposed to engage in thinking about politics. It would incite the "they're animals, let's kill them all with fire" in many. It really costs us almost nothing to treat the dead according to our usual established standards. Changing that so we can...do what? Take revenge on a dead man? Create more enemies? To appease your thirst?

WE are supposed to be more civilized. Better to live up to something than down.

bulletdodger says

OBL does not represent a major religion, but an ‘improper’ burial would engage the entire Muslim community?
This is all very confusing.

I completely agree! I just think that's the way it works.

Much of the rest of the world views any act by any American as an example of Christian action. Go figure.

Vicente says

Let’s make it simple for you bulletdodger,
Here’s 2 news items:
1) 2 soldiers and a contractor were killed in Iraq today…..moving on to sports….,.
2) VIDEO OF AMERICANS WHO WERE TORTURED, BURNED AND LEFT HANGING FROM A BRIDGE
News story #1 won’t generate much heat. News story #2 would probably enrage any who watched it even those who aren’t otherwise disposed to engage in thinking about politics. It would incite the “they’re animals, let’s kill them all with fire” in many. It really costs us almost nothing to treat the dead according to our usual established standards. Changing that so we can…do what? Take revenge on a dead man? Create more enemies? To appease your thirst?
WE are supposed to be more civilized. Better to live up to something than down.
“Eagles are dandified vultures” - Teddy Roosevelt

Vicente, you ended up missing my points while trying to make things simple for me. For the record, I've not suggested that OBLs body be wrapped in bacon, maimed by starving dogs and buried in a pagan cemetery by a gay rabbi on 9/11/11. I think the administration showed genius planning in every aspect of the operation including burial.

My first post in this thread was an attempt to show the absurd logic of the people who might be angered by a disrespectful burial.

I think FunTimes thought that I was being critical of the choice to give a Muslim burial, and went on to assert that OBL does not represent a major religion, and giving him an improper burial "WOULD engage the entire Muslim community."

I don't think it would. It's been reported that some Muslims don't consider OBL a Muslim because he did not follow the peaceful teachings of Islam and some have said he defamed the Muslim religion. Jihadists do consider OBL a true Muslim, and would be angered by a disrespectful handling of his body. So, are we calling him a true Muslim by giving him a proper Muslim burial? Sure. So, should moderate Muslims who don't consider him a Muslim be offended that we buried him like a true Muslim? I think so, but I also think it's better to offend moderate Muslims rather than hot head jihadists who might be moved to action. It's all perfectly ironic to me, a proper Muslim burial right after the civil execution of unarmed Jihadist #1 by the Navy Seals. The Obama administration played it perfectly making everyone as happy as possible given the circumstances.

In any case, it's not all so simple for me.

BD

bulletdodger says

In any case, it’s not all so simple for me.

I expect I'd be buried as a Christian, because I'm sure there's some paper somewhere that says so. I'm not any more, but I'll be dead and it don't matter do it?

Vicente says

bulletdodger says

In any case, it’s not all so simple for me.

I expect I’d be buried as a Christian, because I’m sure there’s some paper somewhere that says so. I’m not any more, but I’ll be dead and it don’t matter do it?
“Eagles are dandified vultures” - Teddy Roosevelt

God I hope to never be buried as a Christian! There's some paperwork somewhere that I got baptized, etc. And there's paperwork proving I'm a Jew and that I've even been a member of several synagogues. Now I'm a Jew going to a Unitarian Universalist Church, they believe in everything and nothing at all.

I should get my paperwork together so I'm not buried next to Christians. Yuck!

(Really Vicente, I do agree with you that it won't matter one bit to me what they do with my body. I won't be inhabiting it anymore.)

What’s the most basic law that cannot be questioned? Is it the Constitution or the Koran?

Either Murphy's law - or whatever law it is that makes dogshit stick like velcro to the bottom of your shoes.

simchaland says

Now I’m a Jew going to a Unitarian Universalist Church, they believe in everything and nothing at all.

"Those that stand for nothing fall for anything."

elliemae says

whatever law it is that makes dogshit stick like velcro to the bottom of your shoes.

I like that one. I don't think it's been claimed so we can name it after you.

Vicente says

elliemae says

whatever law it is that makes dogshit stick like velcro to the bottom of your shoes.

I like that one. I don’t think it’s been claimed so we can name it after you.
“Eagles are dandified vultures” - Teddy Roosevelt

Elliemae's Theorem: The amount of dogshit that sticks to your shoes like velcro is directly proportional to the amount you spent on them.

???? How'm I doing?