patrick.net

marcus says

About arrogance, I talk to you like I'm smarter than you. You talk like you are morally superior to me, indirectly because you are morally superior to all liberals.

don't be silly. take the knife from your own throat and place it in my back where you had it earlier.

Bap33 says

@corn,
huh? Is that really what you read in my post? wow. My writing skills really suck.

corntrollio says

in that regard I think a liberal is a person who has no pre-set boundries for acceptable behavior where a conservative does.

Maybe I'm misreading you, but that sounds like a very judgmental answer for liberal vs. conservative.

Bap33 says

Meaning, a conservative does not want change when the situation is as it should be, but when things are wrong then a conservative wants things changed back to correct.

We call that a pragmatist. Has nothing to do with liberal or conservative.

Conservative has been given a different meaning by popular media and by politicians, just like liberal. But this isn't 1969, so we should probably get past that crap and stop using inaccurate labels and instead discuss real issues. Someone who leads with "liberals think..." or "conservatives think..." is probably not going to have anything interesting to say. The whole idea is flawed anyway, since politics are better mapped on two spectra: http://www.politicalcompass.org/

corntrollio says

in that regard I think a liberal is a person who has no pre-set boundries for acceptable behavior where a conservative does.
Maybe I'm misreading you, but that sounds like a very judgmental answer for liberal vs. conservative.

no no no ... pre-set acceptable behavior .. the "acceptable" is not as in legal or moral, but acceptable meaning something closer to "expected" or "pleasing" or "comfortable" or maybe something like "normal" to a person. I see what you were reading, but I was not intending that.

Just so we all have the actual definition of Fundamentalism from Merriam-Webster:

1.: a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs

2: a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles

All bolds are mine.

As you can see, reason, critical thinking, etc. aren't mentioned at all. Literal interpretations require no reason or critical thinking. And, beliefs aren't facts... That's magical thinking.

I rest my case.

Bap33 says

The CALIFORNIA EDUCATION MONSTER MACHINE is BAD/EVIL/BROKEN in my opinion.

How do you breathe when your head is in that particular location ?

http://toped.svefoundation.org/2011/01/12/now-43rd-in-per-student-spending/

So 42 of the 50 states spend more per student than California.

This is about prop 13. Instead of paying higher real estate taxes in California, we just pay more for Real Estate. That's pretty fucked up.

By the way, one thing I am working on right now is teaching to the State standardized tests better than I ever have before. That will certainly make it appear that I am doing a better job.

marcus says

For one thing I am politically a liberal in some ways, but actually a conservative, just because of my age. I have always done challenging and stressful work (didn't teach until my forties). And many of my classes present plenty of adversity.

Marcus, I am leaving my well paying job in the military at near 40 years old to jump into the education system. I have been a great teacher/mentor in the military and really enjoy it. Any advice for someone at 40 deciding to go into the education system?

I'm still trying wrap my head around the theory of conserativism and liberalism being personality traits.

Bap33 says

don't be silly. take the knife from your own throat and place it in my back where you had it earlier.

I tip my hat to that one.

Truthplease says

Any advice for someone at 40 deciding to go into the education system?

I would suggest that you maybe find a good job, before leaving your current one, for starters. It's a very tough time to be starting in teaching, because there have been a lot of lay offs recently. You are going to be competing with experienced people out there, that is in your job search.

Do you have ideas of age and subject you want to teach ?

Certain ages are much more difficult than others. Grades 7 - 9 are particularly difficult in my opinion.

simchaland says

to a set of basic principles

dude, cmon now .. "basic principles" can't bother you THAT much. Just remove the bold that you added and put it on the "basic principles" part and then you may see sumthin different.

@ellie,
I can't be sure that I even approached that division right. Is it personality trait, or a function of deep thought, or just pre-wired DNA, or an expression of life experience, or all of the above, or were the smart ones all made leftists and the cavemanish ones all made rightists? lol. It would seem that there are many similar personality traits and philosophy shared by those that populate each "side", and only the middle-road types cross over. Heck, depending on the subject matter, many folks change sides. I dunno.

@marcus,
my personal opinion should not result in a personal attack from Lord Teacher AllMighty. People that attack personally when faced with a differing opinion should be ashamed, in my opinion. That shows a lack of intellect, that results in a lack of ideas, that results in frustration, that results in fear, that results in hate, that results in anger, that results in childlike name calling instead of mature retort. People should discuss issues with respect, and I guess the saying is true ... "those that can - do (ellie, sim, many others), and those that can't - teach (you)."

Truthplease says

Any advice for someone at 40 deciding to go into the education system?

If you re thinking of high school, it is true as Bap mentioned that a degree in the subject you are teaching is often required. This does not nearly guarantee proficiency as a teacher, and there aren't any teachers that think this alone is sufficient to guarantee their proficiency(contrary to one of Baps many silly assertions above). But it's a reasonable place to start, that is requiring proof that the person knows the subject, even beyond the level that they will be teaching.

Bap33 says

People that attack personally when faced with a differing opinion should be ashamed

Bap33 says

That shows a lack of intellect

Bap33 says

those that can - do (ellie, sim, many others), and those that can't - teach (you)."

Practicing what you preach I see. You could have at least waited until another post to avoid being such a hypocrite.

Oops,. I did it again. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

When you express "opinions" like the following you might want to expect a reaction (as if you didn't).

Bap33 says

I disagree. The education system is absurd and is only a goldenchild of the left becasue it gave them direct access to the youth to force upon them their leftist anti-God/American/Freedom queer way of thinking.

You have made it clear that people like me, and my beliefs are responsible for for the decline of of our culture. And you said in so many words that 95% of Califonia teachers are incompetent. Later you sort of took it back, before saying that really it might be more than 95%.

(I don't really think the term "passive aggressive" applies. This is aggressive. I'm not going to apologize for finding you to be narrow minded, and racist ("invaders"), and in your own not so subtle way, an asshole.)

Why is my being upfront about that any more personal than my quotes from you here ?

These are not statements that lead to adult conversation. I retract and apologize for nothing I have said.

Truthplease says

Any advice for someone at 40 deciding to go into the education system?

Do you really want to join the morally corrupt and bankrupt system? All you'll be is a sacrificial lamb for when the union goons try to harass the society for more kickbacks by laying off all the new teachers.

That train is never late. These crony corrupt goons just keep on skimming millions of taxpayer dollars. And when its time to pay the bill because the system is going bankrupt they just lay off the new teachers. It's really a pathetic system.

EMan says

These crony corrupt goons just keep on skimming millions of taxpayer dollars

This is made up bs that Chris has never detailed. I am a teacher and I honestly honestly have no idea even what he is saying. Are there high level union guys that are siphoning off big money ? OR is it our awesome huge salaries that are ripping off the tax payer?

AM talk radio propaganda. Chris doesn't even know what he means. Just An angry cliche that sounds like it might mean something ? wtf ?

EMan says

All you'll be is a sacrificial lamb for when the union goons try to harass the society for more kickbacks by laying off all the new teachers.

Translation: If we teachers (some of whom, you know have families and mortgages etc), if we teachers don't insist that our paycuts are increased enough to prevent layoffs, then it is we who are actually laying off those new teachers ? Wow.

I believe that Chris is a liar about the big money he makes and taxes he pays. Because anyone who was truly making a decent living would not rail against teachers in this way.

You can verbally defend your union all you want. Robert Rizo defended his establishment too. It will all catch up eventually.

Few month ago it was the city of Bell, today its the city of Montebello, sooner or later you guys will be under the hammer too. Carma has a way of catching up with fraudsters.

The Bell emloyees were NOT in unions. Nor were they teachers.

HousingWatcher says

The Bell emloyees were NOT in unions. Nor were they teachers.

top government officials who had not enough public oversight.

marcus says

OR is it our awesome huge salaries that are ripping off the tax payer?

It's the awesone teacher pensions, health benefits, and small class sizes that are ripping off the taxpayers. Tha salary's really not so much.

Small class sizes? Really? I guess you have not been reading the statistics lately.

marcus says

I would suggest that you maybe find a good job, before leaving your current one, for starters. It's a very tough time to be starting in teaching, because there have been a lot of lay offs recently. You are going to be competing with experienced people out there, that is in your job search.

Yep, understand Marcus and thanks for the advice. Luckily, I have supported my wife while she has finished her School Psychology degree and finalizes licensing. So, this happens quickly or slowly depending on when she can find employment. We understand that education is usually the first cut in a fiscally constrained environment. Getting her practicum and internship proved exceedingly difficult this last year due to massive budget cuts in education.

We have been very frugal with our money, so we can make it quite a while without a paycheck. I am looking at job satisfaction and want to join another profession. I see teachers as professionals in their area of expertise. I have some concern if teachers are truly treated like professionals anymore. I am using the word professional in the truest sense. It would bother me if I started this profession and was not treated as a professional in a field of study. If that is true, then we really know where the problem lies in the education system.

I was looking at teaching H.S. Math or Science. My BA is in Liberal Arts with a Certificate in Math and a Certificate in Natural Sciences. My 18 year profession is Environmental Sciences and these Praxis II tests are easy areas for me; Biology and General Science, Earth and Space Science, Environmental Education, and General Science. I would have to refresh on Calculus for the Mathematics test. Praxis 1 does not look difficult.

I also have military training in fundamental instructional techniques, curriculum development, tests and measures, and leadership (obvious).

marcus says

(I don't really think the term "passive aggressive" applies. This is aggressive. I'm not going to apologize for finding you to be narrow minded, and racist ("invaders"), and in your own not so subtle way, an asshole.)

lmao .. you are tooo much my angry little friend. Rise above the fear and anger, you can do it! One question though, exactly what race do you connect to "invader"? I only ask because I am far from a racists, or sexist, or anythingist ... keeping track of those things is more of a liberal minded thing, in my opinion.

And since you refuse to not call names; I know you are, but what am I?

Truthplease says

I also have military training in fundamental instructional techniques, curriculum development, tests and measures, and leadership (obvious).

just wanted to re-produce the word "fundamental" so as to show how basic ideals sure can be a good thing. (just funning w/Sim here - no offense)

@truth,
I too am looking at teaching, but in my case it's at a vocational center. I think I'll do better with older teens and young adults, mainly due to my limited vocabulary when curse words are removed, and lack of patients for undisciplined children raised by idiots. The center is funded by tax dollars and puts low-income/welfare people to the front of the line. The teaching/trainer position pays $0 per month, but I want to help folks that are in a bad spot and are willing to help themselves. A few evenings a week aint that big of a deal to give up, in my opinion.

Some of you on here bashing teachers and our education. What are your solutions? You have to consider that teaching is more of a monopoly market. Some of you are expressing your opinions to teacher's salaries and benifits as if your opinion was the market. Should we privatize teaching? That would be great for teachers! Let's apply free market principles to education, then teachers would earn 150K salaries.

If not, then why are you bashing teachers pay and compensation as if it was your own? Sounds very socialist to me.

Why the attack on teachers? How about we play a game. You tell me what your profession is, and I will give you my opinion that you are overpaid and underperforming. Or better yet, I buy your product, you tell me how much you make, and then I will use my sole opinion to determine the market instead of the market itself.

Only a socialist would claim someone else’s pay as their own when another has freely exchanged their labor for pay.

The government mandates education. Plain and simple. You want to get rid of the union, Fine! Let's apply free market principles to education. Education is now privatized, poof! How about I start an education company called Edu-Mart, then I tap into highly educated pools of people overseas, I bring them in to teach your kids at a fraction of the cost. Or better yet, Edu-Mart will just ship your kids to china and educate them there. That would be great for this country!

Don't want to do that, okay then, I am big government now. You find a school to educate your kids and you pay for it. However, every year Uncle Sam is going to test your kids. If your kid doesn't pass, I will fine you a hefty penalty. I don't care if you can't afford to pay the tuition for these well performing privately run schools, too bad! Sucks to be poor.

Wouldn't that be a nice free market education system that just neglects the lower class and further locks is in a social caste system.

Edit: This is more of a rant open rant as I was thinking, but will keep it posted to see if there are any better ideas.

vouchers

In order to get a teaching job in today's environment, you have to be certified in math or science, certified in special education, AND bilingual. And have a masters. There are simply no teaching jobs so districts can have high standards.

Sweden has vouchers but schools can't charge more than the voucher.

This is important, since without that hard limit vouchers just become a price support and the cost will be jacked up to what the parents can afford + the voucher.

Also, the more difficult students cost the most money to educate. Vouchers become a way to cherry-pick all the good students and dump the rest god-knows-where.

Public schools are a foundational element of a meritocratic all-in-it-together society. The intermixing of social classes is critical.

Private schools are centrifugal, divisive, and a terrible long-run mistake. But that's where we're going, because making long-run mistakes is something this nation is becoming really good at.

Troy says

Public schools are a foundational element of a meritocratic all-in-it-together society. The intermixing of social classes is critical.

Agree completely.

if that's the case -- how do you feel about the reduced use of english in California? I mean, if public schooling is soooooooo great, where do you place American culture and lingo?? Where do you place church and family -- both are mainstays of an all-in-it-together society too aint they? The fabric of any sociey is commonality .... conservatively speaking. And speaking of that, when you suggest that all members of a society are responsible to behave in a manner that is best for the society, that means you are suggesting we toss out all deviant behavior .. as deviant behavior flies in the face of all-in-it-together meritocracticness. Right?

One other question, who sayd "intermixing of social classes in critical"? Who looks at students with regard to social class and why in the world would that make any difference as to how they learn or what it costs to teach them? I do not agree with having any policey that acknowledges social class. Who is in charge of assigning the class to each person?

Reduced use of English, it is an absolute disservice to only teach one language in school. You are also setting kids up for failure if you don't teach English.

Church is not in public education. Family yes.

The fabric of American society is not commonality. American Society is diversity.

Yes, deviant behavior as in crimes or disobedience, do not punish disabilities.

Who looks at students in regard to social class? Ever heard of the reduced lunch program. You need to recognize there are social class differences. Some kids need a bus, some kids get dropped off at school in their parent's Lexus.

What it costs to teach them? I would believe poor kids are harder to teach because of social issues. Do you realize there are kids out there that only get a decent meal when they go to school? Yeah, let's keep ignoring the poor. Don't worry little Johnny, I know your tummy hurts because your broke, but keep coloring in the lines and try not to pass out.

Bap, it sounds like you have an axe to grind in your community or your past about one individual that was paid well to do very little. I guess you will be the first one who steps up and volunteers to put the Latino kids on a train back to Mexico, cuts school lunch programs, and reduces our school system to a have and have not program.

zzyzzx says

It's the awesone teacher pensions, health benefits, and small class sizes that are ripping off the taxpayers. Tha salary's really not so much.

Pension contributions are taken out of my salary. If you looked up my salary, the amount you would see is before subtraction of my pension contribution. The state also contributes. It's just like social security (and in place of social security (FICA). The difference being that the money goes in to an actual fund. And the payout is a little better than social security. But it's not a fair comparison, beause you can get full social security for many less years paying in, and social security pays disability and other benefits that are different from a simple formula based pension.

I started late, so won't do that well with it anyway.

MY average class size was about 45 this past year.

As I said earlier, California is 43rd in spending per student.

EMan says

Carma has a way of catching up with fraudsters.

I'm assuming you were referring to karma ?

Okay, but truth occasionally prevails as well. Combine ignorant thinking with lazy thinking and you get Eman, a person who never backs up his wacky assertions.

Cool, it's magic. He say's it's true, without even really the detail for anyone to comprehend what he's saying (he hasn't even thought it through that far), and poof, abracadabra it is magically true ! And by magic not only is it true, but people will magically now understand the details of what he was saying too.

Bap33 says

how do you feel about the reduced use of english in California?

as long as the 3rd generation speaks English natively, I don't give a shit.

I was an immigrant to Japan so I know how much nicer it is for immigrants to speak their own language in their adopted country.

Coming back here was always something of a relief to be able to function above the level of a retard in daily society. And my Japanese wasn't that bad.

that means you are suggesting we toss out all deviant behavior .. as deviant behavior flies in the face of all-in-it-together meritocracticness. Right?

No, the true problem here is all the judgmental, holier-than-thou pricks deciding they can tell other people how to live their lives.

If it doesn't harm you, laissez faire.

marcus says

Eman, a person who never backs up his wacky assertions.

Robert Rizo is in jail by now and so is the entire city council of the city of Bell for stealing public funds for personal use.

City of Montobello is under investigation from FBI because they misappropriated HUD funds.

Thats just how you government officials in big places work, they steal from the poor to provide themselves a lavish lifestyle.

EMan says

Thats just how you government officials in big places work, they steal from the poor to provide themselves a lavish lifestyle.

I know the story, can you give me the detailed breakdown of what that has to do with teachers and their union? Where's the fraud ? Where's the corruption. Can you find it. I know you're real sure it's there, BUT CAN YOU FIND EVEN A HINT OF IT?

Keep in mind, even the highest officials in the union are paid on the teachers pay scale which is public knowledge. It tops out at about 72K, but and goes a little higher slowly, but you can only get there with a huge amount of additional classes, that are not paid for by the employer.

Troy says

as long as the 3rd generation speaks English natively, I don't give a shit

Really, anyone who is here and going to school here before the age of 9 or so, is 98% guaranteed to make English their first language and to speak it with zero accent. But their parents, extended family or neighbors might still use Spanish a lot, in which case they have the pleasure of being totally bilingual, which I personally am envious of.

I know of educated latino parents who intentionally bring their children up speaking English and Spanish (even way before school) because they wish their kids to be bilingual like they are. How can you not respect that?

We are used to being so isolated. I doubt any European can even imagine such a ridiculous conversation.

English is securely in place as our primary language.

EMan says

Thats just how you government officials in big places work, they steal from the poor to provide themselves a lavish lifestyle.

I don't know Marcus, but I believe that I can say with absolute certainty that he isn't stealing from the poor to provide a lavish lifestyle for himself.

I can go you one better: Teachers aren't "government officials." They are often government employees - but then again, so are janitors, IT people, office staff, etc. Some of these people might have better job protections due to their affiliation with a union - but they're far from being influential people with the power you described.

Bap33 says

how do you feel about the reduced use of english in California? I mean, if public schooling is soooooooo great, where do you place American culture and lingo??

If you're asking me, I'd be thrilled to see better use of the English language amongst the posters on this forum. But that wasn't your point... I believe that you were attempting to link "American culture & lingo" with the English language. We don't have a national language (we have so many other "national" designations, but not a language), so I'm more than a bit curious as to what your perceived reduced use of English in California might have to do with the downfall of our American Culture.

I also found it ironic that you were complaining about the ramifications of the reduced use of English on our culture by using a Spanish word. Seriously, Bap - if you can't use the King's English, with words that are only rooted in Anglo-Saxon language, you negate your argument.

The English language itself evolved out of many different languages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_English_language

Bap33 says

And speaking of that, when you suggest that all members of a society are responsible to behave in a manner that is best for the society, that means you are suggesting we toss out all deviant behavior .. as deviant behavior flies in the face of all-in-it-together meritocracticness. Right?

Unless it's a society of S&M freaks. Kinda blows your theory all to hell, huh? And "meritocracticness?" Wow.

elliemae says

I don't know Marcus, but I believe that I can say with absolute certainty that he isn't stealing from the poor to provide a lavish lifestyle for himself.

Teachers in CA for most part are complacent and lazy. I've been to these schools. Their union has done it all to lower quality of education.

EMan says

Teachers in CA for most part are complacent and lazy

He's trying to come up with something. You have no idea Chris. It's a burnout job, where one never feels they are doing enough, even if they work 70 hours a week. Especially when there are 45 students in each class.

EMan says

Their union has done it all to lower quality of education.

We get that you want that to be true, and that that is all you need for something to be true for you, but it's easy to argue opposite. Pay and benefits would probably be worse without the unions. I know that you fancy yourself as someone who understands markets and economics. Are you saying that if teachers pay and benefits were worse, that somehow higher quality people would be attracted to the profession ?

We aren't hired by buddies in the union. We are hired by Principals, who choose the best applicant. And then there is the evaluation process by which someone becomes permanent.

marcus says

We get that you want that to be true, and that that is all you need for something to be true for you, but it's easy to argue opposite. Pay and benefits would probably be worse without the unions. I know that you fancy yourself as someone who understands markets and economics. Are you saying that if teachers pay and benefits were worse, that somehow higher quality people would be attracted to the profession ?

I would say that the system enshrined by law is devoid of many positive free market influences, and is hindered by too much union monopolization from reaching the ultimate goal of delivering the highest-quality education at an affordable price.

In that context, I'm no fan of treating all teachers as equals primarily by credentials and tenure. I've experienced exceptional teachers in public schools, and horrible teachers. The former should have been paid above what they were being paid, and rewarded for their ability to replicate what works by becoming teachers who lead / groom other teachers. The latter should have been fired, but were tenured and protected.

I've also been extremely fortunate to have had one year of private high school. I can tell you that across the board these teachers were all like the best teachers I experienced in the public schools. Moreover, few of them were officially certified to teach in the public schools. Two who I consider the best were young, brilliant, and fairly recently out of college, and exceptionally motivating with their passion for the subjects being taught. It is universally understood that private schools pay less than government run schools.

All that said, wages are a bit of a distraction from the deeper systematic problems of the U.S. school system in general, which by and large are one-sized-fits-all centers bureaucratically forced into a state-neutered mediocrity and structured primarily to meet the lowest common denominator of regional and national political-education demands, offend the fewest residents possible, while satisfying to the greatest extent possible the demands of local organized labor so to meet the political aspirations of politicians at all levels. Operating in this framework of institutionalized mediocrity, the discussion of wages is, well... facile.

To entertain it, nonetheless, pay for teachers should be market determined just the same as in any other industry. But so, too, should the structure of education, vs. the system currently fossilized into place by state mandate. Education could be innovative, purposeful, and dramatically more effective in meeting real world demand if freed from the shackles of mediocrity. In such an environment, the most effective and entrepreneurial educators at delivering an end-product that satisfies the consumers' desire for purposefully educated children at an affordable price would win out. That would mean the best in education (in its new, highly varied and innovative form) world would attract most of the revenue, and therein the teachers who were most effective at delivering a quality education would be rewarded the most. Those less effective would work for less much like any other industry where experience and quality pay the most, and those that suck would be washed out of the system into a career more suitable to their abilities / efforts.

marcus says

We aren't hired by buddies in the union. We are hired by Principals, who choose the best applicant. And then there is the evaluation process by which someone becomes permanent.

No doubt, that the way it works. But principals are handcuffed within / are the byproduct of a severely shackled system.

marcus says

It's a burnout job, where one never feels they are doing enough, even if they work 70 hours a week. Especially when there are 45 students in each class.

I can only imagine the frustrations.

And in the "worst" school districts, teachers are expected to accomplish miracles with students whose parents have zero involvement, with many teenage students being warehoused by law who are not the least bit cooperative / interested in being educated. Systematically, this comes at the expense of the truly reachable students / involved parents.

The system, as is, does not solve this problem. Throwing money at the problem seems to have only made it worse.

As a related tangent, I ran the numbers here in Pittsburgh once, where the cost per student was $13000 back then, and the average class size was at about 30. At $390k per classroom, that's a lot of coin especially when the average teacher was only getting about $80k-$90k of that (when adding all benefits to wages). IMO, too much coin is being wasted. (One area was in the janitorial department, where janitors were working the union contract so that they could load up on overtime, and where some were making 6 figures for cleaning the school. I'm all for a fair wage... but Houston, we have a problem.)

Although, I guess to tie this back to my initial point... What's the point of blowing cash on a large part of the student population that wants nothing to do with working along with the system?

More to the point, what's the best incentive to get kids to embrace education? The current system is a failure for all who attend only until the point at which they immediately (are allowed to) drop out.

Ronnie Honduras says

More to the point, what's the best incentive to get kids to embrace education?

A visible goal at the end of the process.

Troy says

A visible goal at the end of the process.

10 points for vagueness! Such as?

Implies defining a value proposition that can be embraced. Wealth and value are very relative concepts. Hard time envisioning a universal that resonates.