patrick.net

Truthplease says

Is that to me? I do want to understand. I don't believe in cutting anyone's opportunity for a good education.

Yes, I agree. That's one of the things that Bap can't see. Let's say for the sake of example, there are only three kinds of students, good students (well motivated, with above average aptitude, and attitude), neutral students (average aptitude, so so motivation, and very influenced by the types of students they are surrounded by)., and bad students (poorly motivated, often disruptive and needy for any kind of attention, and in many cases below average aptitude - (sometimes just from being so far behind)).

So:

Good, Neutral and Bad

(note: in actuality it's a more complex continuum).

Bap says, if you are in a bad neighborhood, get the bad students out of the picture, let them all attend one school together, a school where almost nobody succeeds. They don't even have hardly any examples of what being a successful student looks like at that school.

What he is missing is exactly what you say, many of those bad students, are in their situation for reasons mostly that they were born in to. Why don't they deserve to be surrounded by cool kids setting a good example, or at least not segregated off to being only with others like them or worse.

Typical decent to good public schools have a lot of "honors classes" and many of those students are "cool." Often some of the coolest, the kind of kids that many in the neutral to slightly bad category would want to emulate.

Students in the "bad" category, deserve a chance to grow and become better students. Many studies have shown that the best opportunities for that is in a diverse school. Ones like the one I work at. We have many students that go to 4 years schools, a little less that go to UC schools and fewer still that go to the Top tier private schools with scholarships. We have hundreds of student who take at least a few AP classes (college classes) before they graduate.

The example that those students set for others is worth far more than any lecture an adult can give at a low perfoming school that has almost exclusively unmotivated "bad students."

The other thing that Bap and Eman miss is how good the typical public school is, if it's in a middle class area or upper middle class. Many of the best high schools in the country are in this category, and yes, public !!

The annual Gallup poll about education shows that Americans are overwhelmingly dissatisfied with the quality of the nation’s schools, but 77 percent of public school parents award their own child’s public school a grade of A or B, the highest level of approval since the question was first asked in 1985.

Sorry to repeat this so many times, but I'm pretty sure that Bap and Eman don't comprehend the implications.

MY public school is in LA, and we have graduates from recent years that went on to Harvard, MIT, CalTech, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Columbia, and many other great private schools. If that can be done as it is at thousands of public hgh schools in the US, and they simultaneously serve a significant number of relatively unmotivated and lower performing students, then how do you logically argue for revamping everything? I know the answer behind your puppet masters. They don't want to pay for it, and they really believe that relative to tax dollars thay can get a better deal with private schools.

They want to dismantle one of the greatest things about this country. I thought conservatives were supposed to be real smart about the risks they take.

I'm the conservative on this topic, if you have any clue what it means. You are just listening to the noise coming from your corporate overlords. Amazing really, the way they get you to do their bidding.

marcus says

Bap33 says

Allowing bad students to stay in school is just as bad as allowing bad teachers.

Really ? It's their fault ? Let's say a kids dad was shot, and he was so distraught that he's now a few years behind. Maybe he's surly and has many bad influences. This kid doesn't deserve to be in an environment where he's around other kids who want to learn ?

You're right that we are closer to agreement. That is that the problem is one of values. Why don't more poor people in this country value education ? How do we turn that around ? Especially in those key early years, when parental involvement (ideally educated parents who know the value themselves) is so important.

How do we make schools in bad (poor) neighborhoods a place where behavior has to be good, and where everyone attends ?

You see simple solutions to this. That's fine.

excellant discourse, thank you for the civility.
From top to bottom:
The first lesson to be learned would be that life is not fair and that the welfare system is producing very poor parents due to them not worring about who is knocking them up as a teen. And if you are honest you will say that the bad kids are raised by a single mom or live with grandma or someone else.

Poor people do educate their young. Bad people do not. I do not equate the two, and I do not think you do either, but I just wanted to be clear. I was raised more poor than middle-class when viewed against my fellow students and area, but #1) I knew nothing else, and #2) my dad had me ready for 2nd grade when I showed up for K because he would spend the evenings playing games that taught me stuff like letters and numbers and writting but I didn't know it because they were just games to me.

Your idea of having a few bad kids sprinkled into the mix that will just follow along with the good kids is not a bad idea, it is just the opposite of the human condition. Tossing a bad dog in the pen full of good dogs results in a pen full of bad dogs. Putting the edgy kid in the pile of obediant kids results in lots of friction. Those edgy kids tend to command lots of attention and gather followers like a dog gets fleas. They will tease the hard working kids, the egdy dudes will enjoy the charms of the less worldly girls. You see, the fact is, the troubled life kids have a TON of education under their belts, but it is not from a book. They are very exciting, know how to lie, manipulate, twist, obstruct, and just mess up stuff -- for reasons that are just and unjust. And now hear this - bad kids come from wealthy homes too. Spoiled ass rich white brat Chad and his sister Starbright, that have never been chastened, and get to tell mommy how to cook their food, they are a pain too and a teacher's nightmare. They are also the most common first drug supply in class. But, life is not about deserves and fair, and those that do not understand that spend lots of money. American life is about freedom ... to try and fail, or try and succeed, or sit on you ass and not even try at all. That last catagory, and their spawn, is supposed to live hungry, in my opinion.

You ask how do we make bad schools good, but you incorrectly tied poor to that question. I do not think the economic condition of the area a school sits in should make any difference in the educational process. It should not be focused or even mentioned. Same for the economic condition of the kids. What has to be taught and learned does not (should not) change based on any student's family worth. I will answer your question, but I just wanted to be clear. The best way to get things right is to fix the family. The good old fashioned (conservative) style family for a kid to enter this world. That is the long term fix. We also need to stop allowing for excuses based on the economic condition of an area or a school's demographic. I have coffee with an old retired man. He was raised in Iowa and graduated the year Japan surrendered. His school was one room with a curtin that seperated the little kids from the bigger kids. He went to that one room school every day that there was no work on the farm during the winter months. He suggests that school be left open all year around "so kids can come in should they get the urge." This man graduated with a perfect 4.0, was the vallydictorian(spelled wrong because I'm lazy and ellie would know I had to cheat to spell it correctly - lol)- he went on to desogn and build rocket engines for missles, then he went to work for GM designing and testing the Corvair and after he retired he went to work for U-haul and designed and tested their cooling systems and large truck auto transmissions. He crashed cars for Nadar. He went to the top of every field and was born stone poor to a single mom and he never seen a college campus until he was asked to speak at one. His mom had his well versed in the Bible when he entered school at "6 or so". This old guy is not a common case, and neither is the kid who had a dad at home that was a good dad that was shot and turned the kid's life upside down. The drive to do something is wired in, and the fact is our welfare system is promoting the expansion of a sect of the poulation that did not get that same wire diagram. The way to make a "poor" school work is to hold that school to the exact same standards as every other school on the planet. Do not let the lowered drive of the demographic change how you do things. You set the pace, you outline the goal. And you do what you say. One EXTRA thing that may help is after hours and weekend school based activities. Less free time is not a bad thing. Remove all gang related everything - bad kids first. This needs to start in 5th grade. Make all junior high's use uniforms in areas with population's over 5,000. Have a school uniform of very basic clothes sourced from WalMart. I say WalMart due to the fact there is one in pretty much every town.
To help poor schools and bad students, change the entire teaching structure and make it more like cops and CHP's. When a person is first hired they should be in a pool that will see them placed wherever the STATE says they need them. The new hires are cheaper and fresher and eager, so they should serve an apprenticship that lasts four years while they learn their trade. They will then be constantly placed in areas where they will have the best impact on kids and lowest impact on schools. So, when a person becomes a teacher they do so knowing that their position will require state-wide mobility for the first 4 years. This one thing will allow bad area's access to good teachers.

Better teacher's may be available by reducing the focus on how well a person performs as a student. This is really important in the teacher profession since a conservative minded person going through college could really have their grades and career effected by a liberal minded bitter professor -- for example. So, I suggest the review boards that accept teacher's into the apprenticship be made up of non-teachers. Have a lawyer, a preacher, a beat cop, and a local military recruter do the reviews. I chose those carefully, can you figure out why?

I do not see simple solutions to the current SITUATION, mostly because it not a "school problem", it is a social problem. Most of the issue is caused by a reduction in personal accountiblity in society (along with a host of other social issues). However, I do see a way to motivate the Edeucational Monster to do a better job and a lower cost - vouchers (with restrictions as suggested by Troy)

Bap33 says

You ask how do we make bad schools good, but you incorrectly tied poor to that question. I do not think the economic condition of the area a school sits in should make any difference in the educational process. It should not be focused or even mentioned.

Sounds very liberal.

In theory I agree. Maybe if our world wasn't the way it is you would be correct. But the truth is, that the bad public school are in poor areas. Thats simply a known fact. It's not even close to being questionable.

When I went in to teaching, I thought, I love Math and I think I have insights that can make it easier to learn many topics in Math. That is, I thought "I know how to make things easy to understand." Getting to my point, I also thought that while it would be enjoyable to teach the smartest and hungriest for knowledge type of students, that the real rewarding work would be making a difference with struggling students.

There is a small amount of truth to what I thought, but generally speaking, in practice I was wrong, at least with respect to what I like. But also in the difference I can make with a student that is really "turned off' to school. For many of these students, its just not the right time. Many will be ready at some point to settle down and try, but now just isn't that time. There can be many reasons for it.

Without going further in to it, I am trying to explain why it is that teaching in the really tough unsuccessful schools (and sorry but it is all about poverty), is not attractive to great teachers, and how great teachers alone will not turn it around. Especially not at high school, where the die has already been cast (many students 2 to 5 years behind grade level - but they are going to be tested at grade level).
Being expected to leap several grade levels, for a students who believes that being in school sucks ? That's not much fun, and will be a lot of work (it turns out the rich get richer and vice versa even in school - starts at the age of 5). Why should they try to do that ?

Teachers are not the problem in these schools. It is family and all external influences. All the little influences that a child picks up at home and from friends, and in the day to day living they have done so far. Manners, it turns out are huge.

Speaking of manners, I know I have been rude to you Bap.

Bap33 says

thank you for the civility

I guess what I can say about that, is thanks for not going too over the top with certain beliefs of yours which offend me on a deep level. Not using the term "invaders" (although I saw you are still flaunting this, what I consider very racist view) in other threads. I also appreciate not making over the top ridiculous statements about how everything you don't like about our culture and poverty is the fault of liberal policies.

I see some pretty extreme ignorance with children, but that's one of the beauties of working with children, that they are never so far down the path with their beliefs that many adults are. And outright hate, if it exists, is usually confined to individuals, or a particular gang etc.

Where was I, about schools ? I guess I'm going to work toward wrapping it up for now.

Bap33 says

I do not see simple solutions to the current SITUATION, mostly because it not a "school problem", it is a social problem.

Correct. And it must be nice to have all the solutions to this. As it turns out, just as it is true in the academic world, understanding the question is far more important than many realize.

The single and best first solution would be to improve our economy which in turn could reduce dependence on welfare or other forms of public aid. You would agree with this I'm sure. Considering how that might occur is a topic for another thread.

The other thing you have to realize is that change takes time. We are in the middle of many negative changes that are slowly happening, while many people are demanding quick fixes to problems that don't have quick fixes.

Many don't even acknowledge that a big chunk of the terrible spending that Obama did was bailing out states and their public service workers (including teachers).

Anyway, I find it fascinating that it is at these times when states are broke, that you and others are talking about improving public schools, and the terrible job that public schools supposedly do. Why can't people just admit that they don't want to pay for public schools ?

It's another example of bullshit that Troy refers to in another thread.

It's bullshit !

And you don't even know what the puppet master who has his hand up your ass is doing. It's plain and simple, they want to stop paying for public education, or at least paying as much as we do. That's what this is about.

That would never fly. Oooh, I know, let's say we want to improve education. Yeah that's what this is about.

(Chris should be chiming in now, about how teachers and administrators are completely complacent about test scores and their school's performance. It's the union's fault. Obviously the place to start in improving education is reducing compensation to teachers).

Bap33 says

spelled wrong because I'm lazy and ellie would know I had to cheat to spell it correctly - lol

Really? You think that your spelling is the only problem with your writing?

374 words, one paragraph (in this thread)
537 words, another paragraph (in this thread).

You bitch about public schools and the quality of education. I attended public schools - some in bigger California cities, some in rural towns in several other states. I attended ten different schools in the 12 year period through high school graduation.

Yet somehow or another I learned to communicate effectively - both verbally and in the written form. I can spell and formulate complete sentences - and paragraphs, which make it easier for my reader(s) to understand the content. I also possess the ability to use a spell-check, which was created for writers of varying abilities in order to present a clear message.

Sure, our system needs to revamped, and people need to be responsible for their children's educational process. But every time that you post a huge paragraph, you lose your audience. All I see is blah, blah, blah and I skip it.

You might actually have something pertinent to say - you sometimes do. However, your complaints about the public school system don't hold water (hell, they leak like a sieve!) due to your lack of ability to present your message in a readable manner.

In summation, if your writing is directed towards me, Elvis has left the room. ;)

P.S. I forgot to mention that, while I didn't present the need for a spell-check of the previous post, I still used it for the courtesy of my reader(s).

It's called respect, and also the desire for my message to be understood as I meant it to be. FYI.

marcus says

The single and best first solution would be to improve our economy which in turn could reduce dependence on welfare or other forms of public aid. You would agree with this I'm sure. Considering how that might occur is a topic for another thread.

There is a chicken and egg argument here. Sure if you can get poor people to totally change their values and priorities, using religion, or getting them to all vote republican(joke), then maybe their personal economies and also child rearing will improve.

I would argue that it works the other way, and that even now, having an economy where many can get out of those neighborhoods and or where the neighborhoods slowly improve, because of economics, is the route to better parenting and the better values that come with being in a middle class family.

It is truly "chicken and egg." Why does a teen have a child ? In the few cases I have seen they were Mexican Americans. But then my school is 70% Mexican American. But was it because they wanted to exploit our system, or was it more about their culture and their very specific situation? Many early generation Mexican Americans see a woman(girl) as marriageable after the age of 15. The examples I have seen, the girl comes back to school while the mother or others in the extended family take care of the baby during the day.

These are often Catholics and usually with together strong families. It's not happening that much, but when it does, they seem to take it in stride. I see strong family values there (although nontraditional).

elliemae says

Really? You think that your spelling is the only problem with your writing?

no, I was just hitting the easy ones. Low fruit, if you will. Writing skills are on the wrong side of my brain, next to art. lol

marcus says

Not using the term "invaders" (although I saw you are still flaunting this, what I consider very racist view) in other threads.

We have been invaded by the on-pupose moving into our country by people that are not supposed to be here that came from another country. The term "invaders" is much more correct than a term like "aliens", because some aliens are here legally. It's better than "immigrant" because some immigrants are here legally. Invader is a term that has no positive spin available for the loony left to twist about. As for "racist", that is ridiculous. There is no "race" tied to the invasion nor the invaders. Language and culture have been destroyed, but nothing about race is in play at this time. Well, unless you are a negro or asain, then you are being pushed out of the lower income areas. Other than that, no racial componant is part of the invasion that I know of. I almost went with "raider" because that particular team is pretty popular with the sect we are talking about, but "raider" implies someone who takes and then leaves. Invaders stay. But, trust me, I see no race issue in the invasion, just economic collapse and social upheaval along with a very uncomfotable life for those who try to resist the invaders. No race card here.

marcus says

I would argue that it works the other way, and that even now, having an economy where many can get out of those neighborhoods and or where the neighborhoods slowly improve, because of economics, is the route to better parenting and the better values that come with being in a middle class family.

you would be 100% correct if there were not welfare programs like Section 8 and the cash EBT card that allows non-productive people to live in those better areas that some other productive people (like your example) are busting their butts to get to. Hard work should result in a better living situation (absent bad luck), but the fact is, in this state, a knocked up teen is a cash cow and a free ticket to the good side of town. If all of the gangsters came from rich families with a mom and dad and a BMW, folks would be honest about thr corrolation in play here. Gangsters get their girls prego on purpose and that is their support system for food, shelter, and medicine. Cut that welfare off and getting prego as a teen holds less value. Lets try it and see.

Bap33 says

No race card here.

I believe you, it's a difference in definition. They consider themselves other than "white" at least until a couple or three generations later. There is some subtlety and complexity to this. By my definitions you have have a very racist view. I understand that by yours you don't. It's just a word. It implies prejudice, generalizations, erroneous and overly simplified conclusions, and often a lot of inappropriate emotions tied to faulty "logic." It's not so much about whether we are technically talking about another race or not.

But it is something we would probably be best off not hashing out here.
You aren't even going to change my mind about whether it's racist, let alone whether your inferences are generally correct or not.

Bap33 says

No race card here.

Bap33 says

negro, asain, Language and culture have been destroyed, the sect we are talking about, economic collapse and social upheaval along with a very uncomfotable life for those who try to resist the invaders...

You present as racist. You truly do. If that's not your goal, you may want to change the way that you come across.

Food stamps allow people to live in wealthier areas? Really?

copy that ellie

HW, I did not mention WIC or ADC .... that EBT card is cash in hand to spend as wished, so your point may be off mark a bit. But, to a point, YES access to food aide would/should allow a person to spend more in other places, housing being one. If your meals were all paid for it would effect your housing budget too.

Bap33 says

a knocked up teen is a cash cow and a free ticket to the good side of town.

a knocked up teen that just crossed a border is even a bigger ticket. I remember when I was young and our neighbor was living on welfare, government paid their housing, their utilities, their food, and they actually made more money than me because they worked for cash and paid 0 taxes while all their expenses were paid for by everyone who paid taxes.

CA abuses it's labor and working class.

Food stamps (EBT cards) can only be spent for food, and certain foods aren't allowed. There's abuse, as there is with everything.

For every action, there's a equal and opposite reaction. I read that somewhere, this one time (in band camp).

I can see why people have a problem with welfare recipients, because they only see the bad side of it. Success stories aren't newsworthy. I've seen my share of abuse - but I've seen sooooooooooooooooooooooo many people who are helped by welfare programs.

The hardest thing for me is to see seniors on food stamps, living in public housing or S8 housing. I've seen so many people hit hard by the economy - and have personally met many Madoff vicitms. More people are bringing their family members home rather than place them in nursing homes because they can't afford to lose the senior's income to the household.

It's bad out there. And I didn't have a point other than that.

Food stamps and EBT cards are the exact same thing.

elliemae says

Food stamps (EBT cards) can only be spent for food, and certain foods aren't allowed. There's abuse, as there is with everything.

100% wrong. It is used as a cash withdraw card at ATM's and can just be swiped for cash at any supermarket as well as the Indian casinos. Sorrry, but on this one you are 100% incorrect.

HousingWatcher says

"HW, I did not mention WIC or ADC .... that EBT card is cash in hand to spend as wished, so your point may be off mark a bit."
Food stamps and EBT cards are the exact same thing.

100% incorrect. Wrong. Those EBT are cash-in-hand. Period. Next!!

E-man, I forgot about the power and phone being paid too. Good point.

ellie, I agree with you.
If the resources were used as inteded, there would be enough to help the aged American's more than we help them now. People just refuse to accept the added burdan from the inva... -- ummm -- perminent-uninvited-non-residences that came after Prop 187 was illegally blocked, and their breeding, that eclipses all productive Americans by far.

read this EBT site please: https://www.ebt.ca.gov/caebtclient/usebenefit.jsp

lol ... this proof stuff is kinda fun:

Gambling on the Suckas Dime

From the LA Times: California welfare cards can be used in many casino ATMs

"Reporting from Sacramento — California welfare recipients are able to use state-issued debit cards to withdraw cash on gaming floors in more than half of the casinos in the state, a Los Angeles Times review of records found.

The cards, provided by the Department of Social Services to help recipients feed and clothe their families, work in automated teller machines at 32 of 58 tribal casinos and 47 of 90 state-licensed poker rooms, the review found."

Sorry BAP; we were both correct. In California cash & ebt are the same. Not in my state.

http://www.ebtproject.ca.gov/faq.aspx

Food stamp monies are different; there are restrictions on what can be spent for food stamp (SNAP) purposes, including alcohol, non-food items, etc.

http://www.ehow.com/list_7319938_restrictions-purchases-using-food-stamps_.html

So far as power & phone being paid, there are concessions made for phone & power when it comes to public housing programs. Working for a housing authority, I saw many people who received a refund check every month with which to pay their utilities and their rent was free.

This isn't the norm. And there are many, many people waiting for public housing programs - the lists are long and ain't no assistance while they're waiting.

ellie, cool.

Did you know the Cal issued EBT can be spent anywhere in the friggin nation?? Insane!!

Also, the power and gas company charges extra to folks that pay their bill to off-set those who don't, or have reduced fee. I found it on my bill, got all pissed, read it on line, and got really pissed because it was not the power and gas company doing it, but a state law telling them to do it. That kinda sucks.

I have some folks that I take care of their water bill and show up with fruits and veggies when they are in season since I get them for free all the time. I also gave them all of my older clothing and my kids old/out grown toys and clothes. I do what I can, I feel quilty for not doing more, but I know that handing money to Gov to have them dole out as they see fit is a very bad system. People would give more if they had more to give, and people getting the aide would have a local hand to shake and a way to express gratitude, not to mention a little bit more accountiblity for behavior - if you know what I'm saying.

When I have coffee at the cafe before work, I regularly buy for a retired guy or two, when one's there at the same time. It's no big deal to me, but to them it can't hurt. Random acts of kindness.

Bap33 says

Did you know the Cal issued EBT can be spent anywhere in the friggin nation?? Insane!!

Yes - it's common for people who live in the western states to use a Calif address in order to qualify for more benefits. Calif pays more into the SSI, food stamps, etc systems than Nevada, Utah, Arizona, etc.

Ya'll need to revamp your welfare laws.

Bap, that's nuts man.

Explains why when I was in Eugene, there would be all these Jalopies full of hoodrats w/ California plates pulling up to gas stations buying gas, smokes, and booze with EBT cards, something I couldn't figure out as "Oregon Trail" cards don't allow that. I think they were all on their way to Seattle.

thunderlips11 says

California plates pulling up to gas stations buying gas, smokes, and booze with EBT cards

Christ.

I was told the Oregon welfare sucks, that's why my half-sister came back to Cal to have her 5th kid on our dime ... no, I am not joking. He's 9 now. Oldest is 34. She is 51.

Yep, I forgot to add Oregon to that list. California is awesome for drawing benefits, but certainly not for living on them. That's why people live in cheaper states, and show up to California once a year to extend their benefits.

thunderlips11 says

buying gas, smokes, and booze with EBT cards

I guess food stamps have come a long way. My family was on food stamps for 2 years when my parents couldn't get work. I remember how embarrassing it was as a kid. I also remember that horrible government cheese we got in the 1980’s. However, I don’t see beer, tobacco, or gas as an item that can be purchased in that program. Unless they are using their cards to get cash and then purchasing the items.

Troy says

thunderlips11 says

California plates pulling up to gas stations buying gas, smokes, and booze with EBT cards

Christ.

really opens your eyes, doesn't it?

Truthplease says

Unless they are using their cards to get cash and then purchasing the items

or drugs, or sex, or casino chips, of candy, cell phones, or Ipods, or fancey wheels on their ride, of MP3, or nails, or fake boobs, or viagra, or big TV's, or whateverinthefucktheywantbecasuetheyhavenovalueinthefreecashleverthathasbeenhandedtothembytheleftistprogressivesinfavorofwealthredistribution.

G.E. is moving its X-ray division to China, thereby avoiding oppressive taxes, burdensome regulations, parasitic unions, predatory lawsuits and a hostile business environment.

"Regulations" always distort the market creating unintended, negative consequences - oops.

@Abe

"Oppressive, burdensome, parasitic, predatory and hostile."

It would be better if instead of relocating, they could time travel 170 years
back and use slaves, right here in the U.S.. But if they could and did do that, I think you would maybe want to change your choice of words.

Honest Abe says

G.E. is moving its X-ray division to China

Now when my X-Ray machine errors out and gives me a lethal overdose, my family can try to sue a bunch of Chinese subcontractors. Awesome! I'm so glad they are making best use of GE tax benefits to offshore jobs, layoff Americans, and enrich communists. Everything seems going according to the Koch Brothers plan nicely.

Honest Abe says

G.E. is moving its X-ray division to China, thereby avoiding oppressive taxes, burdensome regulations, parasitic unions, predatory lawsuits and a hostile business environment.
"Regulations" always distort the market creating unintended, negative consequences - oops.

Sure. I mean what was GE's tax bill this year? And of course, Jeffrey Immelt was appointed to the President’s Economic Recovery Advisory Board. I am sure there is no undue influence there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?pagewanted=all

We have "separation of church and state" and might need to think about "separation of business/corporation and state."

Although bussiness has already departed from the entire nation and moving production overseas. That is a threat to our country when you can't build anything at home anymore.

http://blogs.forbes.com/beltway/2011/02/14/intelligence-community-fears-u-s-manufacturing-decline/
http://www.manufacturingnews.com/news/11/0203/intelligence.html

Agreed...so wouldn't the solution be: smaller government, lower taxes, fewer regulations, regulations and restraints on Unions, regulations and restraints on Lawyers and a more friendly business environment?

If businesses got what they wanted here (The US/California)why go over there (another state or country)????

Because as I said a dozen times before, labor in developing countries like China is 30 cents an hour vs. $10 + an hour in the U.S.

no EPA
no CARB
no Air Pollution Control District
no AFLCIO
no Teamsters
no OSHA
no Industrial Labor Law
no Affirmitive Action
no GLAD compliance
no Maternity Leave law
no Fraternity Leave law
no Handicap Access law
no Obama mandated health care.
no fear of being sued for bogus horseshit like WalMart, K-Mart, Savemart, Sears, and every other big corp gets sued for here.

.... would someone please affix a "Conservative" and a "Liberal" to each of those things I listed so we may all give thanks where thanks is due.

Everything having to do with the environment seems to be associated with liberals. But I can 100% guarantee you that to many it is very conservative.

One day, in the not so distant future, environmental concerns will be considered a conservative cause by everyone. The only reason it isn't now is because of how politically fucked up this country is, and how stupid and brainwashed many of our citizens are. If only somehow protecting the environment had bigger short term rewards. If only more huge corporations could somehow cash in on environmental protection.

(I know, I know, the worst polluting is done by other countries now, as is manufacturing. Aint that a kick in the %^$##)

Bap's got a good point! Those are all liberal programs... to my knowledge at least. They sure sound liberal. We *could* fix them all ... but with our budget issues as they are I think this is too expensive. Besides, bleeding heart liberals would whine if the government didn't protect them from 'cold-hearted' coorporations motivated only by increasing profits. Better to just re-instate slavery - with a solid slave trade, we could entice these large corps back to the US. Then the trickle down effect would come into play and we'd all be wealthy. Except the slaves ... but that's their fault/problem.

We can even save money on some jobs ... by using handicap people as slaves rather than importing slaves from elsewhere.