patrick.net

Bap33 says

You ask how do we make bad schools good, but you incorrectly tied poor to that question. I do not think the economic condition of the area a school sits in should make any difference in the educational process. It should not be focused or even mentioned.

Sounds very liberal.

In theory I agree. Maybe if our world wasn't the way it is you would be correct. But the truth is, that the bad public school are in poor areas. Thats simply a known fact. It's not even close to being questionable.

When I went in to teaching, I thought, I love Math and I think I have insights that can make it easier to learn many topics in Math. That is, I thought "I know how to make things easy to understand." Getting to my point, I also thought that while it would be enjoyable to teach the smartest and hungriest for knowledge type of students, that the real rewarding work would be making a difference with struggling students.

There is a small amount of truth to what I thought, but generally speaking, in practice I was wrong, at least with respect to what I like. But also in the difference I can make with a student that is really "turned off' to school. For many of these students, its just not the right time. Many will be ready at some point to settle down and try, but now just isn't that time. There can be many reasons for it.

Without going further in to it, I am trying to explain why it is that teaching in the really tough unsuccessful schools (and sorry but it is all about poverty), is not attractive to great teachers, and how great teachers alone will not turn it around. Especially not at high school, where the die has already been cast (many students 2 to 5 years behind grade level - but they are going to be tested at grade level).
Being expected to leap several grade levels, for a students who believes that being in school sucks ? That's not much fun, and will be a lot of work (it turns out the rich get richer and vice versa even in school - starts at the age of 5). Why should they try to do that ?

Teachers are not the problem in these schools. It is family and all external influences. All the little influences that a child picks up at home and from friends, and in the day to day living they have done so far. Manners, it turns out are huge.

Speaking of manners, I know I have been rude to you Bap.

Bap33 says

thank you for the civility

I guess what I can say about that, is thanks for not going too over the top with certain beliefs of yours which offend me on a deep level. Not using the term "invaders" (although I saw you are still flaunting this, what I consider very racist view) in other threads. I also appreciate not making over the top ridiculous statements about how everything you don't like about our culture and poverty is the fault of liberal policies.

I see some pretty extreme ignorance with children, but that's one of the beauties of working with children, that they are never so far down the path with their beliefs that many adults are. And outright hate, if it exists, is usually confined to individuals, or a particular gang etc.

Where was I, about schools ? I guess I'm going to work toward wrapping it up for now.

Bap33 says

I do not see simple solutions to the current SITUATION, mostly because it not a "school problem", it is a social problem.

Correct. And it must be nice to have all the solutions to this. As it turns out, just as it is true in the academic world, understanding the question is far more important than many realize.

The single and best first solution would be to improve our economy which in turn could reduce dependence on welfare or other forms of public aid. You would agree with this I'm sure. Considering how that might occur is a topic for another thread.

The other thing you have to realize is that change takes time. We are in the middle of many negative changes that are slowly happening, while many people are demanding quick fixes to problems that don't have quick fixes.

Many don't even acknowledge that a big chunk of the terrible spending that Obama did was bailing out states and their public service workers (including teachers).

Anyway, I find it fascinating that it is at these times when states are broke, that you and others are talking about improving public schools, and the terrible job that public schools supposedly do. Why can't people just admit that they don't want to pay for public schools ?

It's another example of bullshit that Troy refers to in another thread.

It's bullshit !

And you don't even know what the puppet master who has his hand up your ass is doing. It's plain and simple, they want to stop paying for public education, or at least paying as much as we do. That's what this is about.

That would never fly. Oooh, I know, let's say we want to improve education. Yeah that's what this is about.

(Chris should be chiming in now, about how teachers and administrators are completely complacent about test scores and their school's performance. It's the union's fault. Obviously the place to start in improving education is reducing compensation to teachers).

Bap33 says

spelled wrong because I'm lazy and ellie would know I had to cheat to spell it correctly - lol

Really? You think that your spelling is the only problem with your writing?

374 words, one paragraph (in this thread)
537 words, another paragraph (in this thread).

You bitch about public schools and the quality of education. I attended public schools - some in bigger California cities, some in rural towns in several other states. I attended ten different schools in the 12 year period through high school graduation.

Yet somehow or another I learned to communicate effectively - both verbally and in the written form. I can spell and formulate complete sentences - and paragraphs, which make it easier for my reader(s) to understand the content. I also possess the ability to use a spell-check, which was created for writers of varying abilities in order to present a clear message.

Sure, our system needs to revamped, and people need to be responsible for their children's educational process. But every time that you post a huge paragraph, you lose your audience. All I see is blah, blah, blah and I skip it.

You might actually have something pertinent to say - you sometimes do. However, your complaints about the public school system don't hold water (hell, they leak like a sieve!) due to your lack of ability to present your message in a readable manner.

In summation, if your writing is directed towards me, Elvis has left the room. ;)

P.S. I forgot to mention that, while I didn't present the need for a spell-check of the previous post, I still used it for the courtesy of my reader(s).

It's called respect, and also the desire for my message to be understood as I meant it to be. FYI.

marcus says

The single and best first solution would be to improve our economy which in turn could reduce dependence on welfare or other forms of public aid. You would agree with this I'm sure. Considering how that might occur is a topic for another thread.

There is a chicken and egg argument here. Sure if you can get poor people to totally change their values and priorities, using religion, or getting them to all vote republican(joke), then maybe their personal economies and also child rearing will improve.

I would argue that it works the other way, and that even now, having an economy where many can get out of those neighborhoods and or where the neighborhoods slowly improve, because of economics, is the route to better parenting and the better values that come with being in a middle class family.

It is truly "chicken and egg." Why does a teen have a child ? In the few cases I have seen they were Mexican Americans. But then my school is 70% Mexican American. But was it because they wanted to exploit our system, or was it more about their culture and their very specific situation? Many early generation Mexican Americans see a woman(girl) as marriageable after the age of 15. The examples I have seen, the girl comes back to school while the mother or others in the extended family take care of the baby during the day.

These are often Catholics and usually with together strong families. It's not happening that much, but when it does, they seem to take it in stride. I see strong family values there (although nontraditional).

elliemae says

Really? You think that your spelling is the only problem with your writing?

no, I was just hitting the easy ones. Low fruit, if you will. Writing skills are on the wrong side of my brain, next to art. lol

marcus says

Not using the term "invaders" (although I saw you are still flaunting this, what I consider very racist view) in other threads.

We have been invaded by the on-pupose moving into our country by people that are not supposed to be here that came from another country. The term "invaders" is much more correct than a term like "aliens", because some aliens are here legally. It's better than "immigrant" because some immigrants are here legally. Invader is a term that has no positive spin available for the loony left to twist about. As for "racist", that is ridiculous. There is no "race" tied to the invasion nor the invaders. Language and culture have been destroyed, but nothing about race is in play at this time. Well, unless you are a negro or asain, then you are being pushed out of the lower income areas. Other than that, no racial componant is part of the invasion that I know of. I almost went with "raider" because that particular team is pretty popular with the sect we are talking about, but "raider" implies someone who takes and then leaves. Invaders stay. But, trust me, I see no race issue in the invasion, just economic collapse and social upheaval along with a very uncomfotable life for those who try to resist the invaders. No race card here.

marcus says

I would argue that it works the other way, and that even now, having an economy where many can get out of those neighborhoods and or where the neighborhoods slowly improve, because of economics, is the route to better parenting and the better values that come with being in a middle class family.

you would be 100% correct if there were not welfare programs like Section 8 and the cash EBT card that allows non-productive people to live in those better areas that some other productive people (like your example) are busting their butts to get to. Hard work should result in a better living situation (absent bad luck), but the fact is, in this state, a knocked up teen is a cash cow and a free ticket to the good side of town. If all of the gangsters came from rich families with a mom and dad and a BMW, folks would be honest about thr corrolation in play here. Gangsters get their girls prego on purpose and that is their support system for food, shelter, and medicine. Cut that welfare off and getting prego as a teen holds less value. Lets try it and see.

Bap33 says

No race card here.

I believe you, it's a difference in definition. They consider themselves other than "white" at least until a couple or three generations later. There is some subtlety and complexity to this. By my definitions you have have a very racist view. I understand that by yours you don't. It's just a word. It implies prejudice, generalizations, erroneous and overly simplified conclusions, and often a lot of inappropriate emotions tied to faulty "logic." It's not so much about whether we are technically talking about another race or not.

But it is something we would probably be best off not hashing out here.
You aren't even going to change my mind about whether it's racist, let alone whether your inferences are generally correct or not.

Bap33 says

No race card here.

Bap33 says

negro, asain, Language and culture have been destroyed, the sect we are talking about, economic collapse and social upheaval along with a very uncomfotable life for those who try to resist the invaders...

You present as racist. You truly do. If that's not your goal, you may want to change the way that you come across.

Food stamps allow people to live in wealthier areas? Really?

copy that ellie

HW, I did not mention WIC or ADC .... that EBT card is cash in hand to spend as wished, so your point may be off mark a bit. But, to a point, YES access to food aide would/should allow a person to spend more in other places, housing being one. If your meals were all paid for it would effect your housing budget too.

Bap33 says

a knocked up teen is a cash cow and a free ticket to the good side of town.

a knocked up teen that just crossed a border is even a bigger ticket. I remember when I was young and our neighbor was living on welfare, government paid their housing, their utilities, their food, and they actually made more money than me because they worked for cash and paid 0 taxes while all their expenses were paid for by everyone who paid taxes.

CA abuses it's labor and working class.

Food stamps (EBT cards) can only be spent for food, and certain foods aren't allowed. There's abuse, as there is with everything.

For every action, there's a equal and opposite reaction. I read that somewhere, this one time (in band camp).

I can see why people have a problem with welfare recipients, because they only see the bad side of it. Success stories aren't newsworthy. I've seen my share of abuse - but I've seen sooooooooooooooooooooooo many people who are helped by welfare programs.

The hardest thing for me is to see seniors on food stamps, living in public housing or S8 housing. I've seen so many people hit hard by the economy - and have personally met many Madoff vicitms. More people are bringing their family members home rather than place them in nursing homes because they can't afford to lose the senior's income to the household.

It's bad out there. And I didn't have a point other than that.

Food stamps and EBT cards are the exact same thing.

elliemae says

Food stamps (EBT cards) can only be spent for food, and certain foods aren't allowed. There's abuse, as there is with everything.

100% wrong. It is used as a cash withdraw card at ATM's and can just be swiped for cash at any supermarket as well as the Indian casinos. Sorrry, but on this one you are 100% incorrect.

HousingWatcher says

"HW, I did not mention WIC or ADC .... that EBT card is cash in hand to spend as wished, so your point may be off mark a bit."
Food stamps and EBT cards are the exact same thing.

100% incorrect. Wrong. Those EBT are cash-in-hand. Period. Next!!

E-man, I forgot about the power and phone being paid too. Good point.

ellie, I agree with you.
If the resources were used as inteded, there would be enough to help the aged American's more than we help them now. People just refuse to accept the added burdan from the inva... -- ummm -- perminent-uninvited-non-residences that came after Prop 187 was illegally blocked, and their breeding, that eclipses all productive Americans by far.

read this EBT site please: https://www.ebt.ca.gov/caebtclient/usebenefit.jsp

lol ... this proof stuff is kinda fun:

Gambling on the Suckas Dime

From the LA Times: California welfare cards can be used in many casino ATMs

"Reporting from Sacramento — California welfare recipients are able to use state-issued debit cards to withdraw cash on gaming floors in more than half of the casinos in the state, a Los Angeles Times review of records found.

The cards, provided by the Department of Social Services to help recipients feed and clothe their families, work in automated teller machines at 32 of 58 tribal casinos and 47 of 90 state-licensed poker rooms, the review found."

Sorry BAP; we were both correct. In California cash & ebt are the same. Not in my state.

http://www.ebtproject.ca.gov/faq.aspx

Food stamp monies are different; there are restrictions on what can be spent for food stamp (SNAP) purposes, including alcohol, non-food items, etc.

http://www.ehow.com/list_7319938_restrictions-purchases-using-food-stamps_.html

So far as power & phone being paid, there are concessions made for phone & power when it comes to public housing programs. Working for a housing authority, I saw many people who received a refund check every month with which to pay their utilities and their rent was free.

This isn't the norm. And there are many, many people waiting for public housing programs - the lists are long and ain't no assistance while they're waiting.

ellie, cool.

Did you know the Cal issued EBT can be spent anywhere in the friggin nation?? Insane!!

Also, the power and gas company charges extra to folks that pay their bill to off-set those who don't, or have reduced fee. I found it on my bill, got all pissed, read it on line, and got really pissed because it was not the power and gas company doing it, but a state law telling them to do it. That kinda sucks.

I have some folks that I take care of their water bill and show up with fruits and veggies when they are in season since I get them for free all the time. I also gave them all of my older clothing and my kids old/out grown toys and clothes. I do what I can, I feel quilty for not doing more, but I know that handing money to Gov to have them dole out as they see fit is a very bad system. People would give more if they had more to give, and people getting the aide would have a local hand to shake and a way to express gratitude, not to mention a little bit more accountiblity for behavior - if you know what I'm saying.

When I have coffee at the cafe before work, I regularly buy for a retired guy or two, when one's there at the same time. It's no big deal to me, but to them it can't hurt. Random acts of kindness.

Bap33 says

Did you know the Cal issued EBT can be spent anywhere in the friggin nation?? Insane!!

Yes - it's common for people who live in the western states to use a Calif address in order to qualify for more benefits. Calif pays more into the SSI, food stamps, etc systems than Nevada, Utah, Arizona, etc.

Ya'll need to revamp your welfare laws.

Bap, that's nuts man.

Explains why when I was in Eugene, there would be all these Jalopies full of hoodrats w/ California plates pulling up to gas stations buying gas, smokes, and booze with EBT cards, something I couldn't figure out as "Oregon Trail" cards don't allow that. I think they were all on their way to Seattle.

thunderlips11 says

California plates pulling up to gas stations buying gas, smokes, and booze with EBT cards

Christ.

I was told the Oregon welfare sucks, that's why my half-sister came back to Cal to have her 5th kid on our dime ... no, I am not joking. He's 9 now. Oldest is 34. She is 51.

Yep, I forgot to add Oregon to that list. California is awesome for drawing benefits, but certainly not for living on them. That's why people live in cheaper states, and show up to California once a year to extend their benefits.

thunderlips11 says

buying gas, smokes, and booze with EBT cards

I guess food stamps have come a long way. My family was on food stamps for 2 years when my parents couldn't get work. I remember how embarrassing it was as a kid. I also remember that horrible government cheese we got in the 1980’s. However, I don’t see beer, tobacco, or gas as an item that can be purchased in that program. Unless they are using their cards to get cash and then purchasing the items.

Troy says

thunderlips11 says

California plates pulling up to gas stations buying gas, smokes, and booze with EBT cards

Christ.

really opens your eyes, doesn't it?

Truthplease says

Unless they are using their cards to get cash and then purchasing the items

or drugs, or sex, or casino chips, of candy, cell phones, or Ipods, or fancey wheels on their ride, of MP3, or nails, or fake boobs, or viagra, or big TV's, or whateverinthefucktheywantbecasuetheyhavenovalueinthefreecashleverthathasbeenhandedtothembytheleftistprogressivesinfavorofwealthredistribution.

G.E. is moving its X-ray division to China, thereby avoiding oppressive taxes, burdensome regulations, parasitic unions, predatory lawsuits and a hostile business environment.

"Regulations" always distort the market creating unintended, negative consequences - oops.

@Abe

"Oppressive, burdensome, parasitic, predatory and hostile."

It would be better if instead of relocating, they could time travel 170 years
back and use slaves, right here in the U.S.. But if they could and did do that, I think you would maybe want to change your choice of words.

Honest Abe says

G.E. is moving its X-ray division to China

Now when my X-Ray machine errors out and gives me a lethal overdose, my family can try to sue a bunch of Chinese subcontractors. Awesome! I'm so glad they are making best use of GE tax benefits to offshore jobs, layoff Americans, and enrich communists. Everything seems going according to the Koch Brothers plan nicely.

Honest Abe says

G.E. is moving its X-ray division to China, thereby avoiding oppressive taxes, burdensome regulations, parasitic unions, predatory lawsuits and a hostile business environment.
"Regulations" always distort the market creating unintended, negative consequences - oops.

Sure. I mean what was GE's tax bill this year? And of course, Jeffrey Immelt was appointed to the President’s Economic Recovery Advisory Board. I am sure there is no undue influence there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?pagewanted=all

We have "separation of church and state" and might need to think about "separation of business/corporation and state."

Although bussiness has already departed from the entire nation and moving production overseas. That is a threat to our country when you can't build anything at home anymore.

http://blogs.forbes.com/beltway/2011/02/14/intelligence-community-fears-u-s-manufacturing-decline/
http://www.manufacturingnews.com/news/11/0203/intelligence.html

Agreed...so wouldn't the solution be: smaller government, lower taxes, fewer regulations, regulations and restraints on Unions, regulations and restraints on Lawyers and a more friendly business environment?

If businesses got what they wanted here (The US/California)why go over there (another state or country)????

Because as I said a dozen times before, labor in developing countries like China is 30 cents an hour vs. $10 + an hour in the U.S.

no EPA
no CARB
no Air Pollution Control District
no AFLCIO
no Teamsters
no OSHA
no Industrial Labor Law
no Affirmitive Action
no GLAD compliance
no Maternity Leave law
no Fraternity Leave law
no Handicap Access law
no Obama mandated health care.
no fear of being sued for bogus horseshit like WalMart, K-Mart, Savemart, Sears, and every other big corp gets sued for here.

.... would someone please affix a "Conservative" and a "Liberal" to each of those things I listed so we may all give thanks where thanks is due.

Everything having to do with the environment seems to be associated with liberals. But I can 100% guarantee you that to many it is very conservative.

One day, in the not so distant future, environmental concerns will be considered a conservative cause by everyone. The only reason it isn't now is because of how politically fucked up this country is, and how stupid and brainwashed many of our citizens are. If only somehow protecting the environment had bigger short term rewards. If only more huge corporations could somehow cash in on environmental protection.

(I know, I know, the worst polluting is done by other countries now, as is manufacturing. Aint that a kick in the %^$##)

Bap's got a good point! Those are all liberal programs... to my knowledge at least. They sure sound liberal. We *could* fix them all ... but with our budget issues as they are I think this is too expensive. Besides, bleeding heart liberals would whine if the government didn't protect them from 'cold-hearted' coorporations motivated only by increasing profits. Better to just re-instate slavery - with a solid slave trade, we could entice these large corps back to the US. Then the trickle down effect would come into play and we'd all be wealthy. Except the slaves ... but that's their fault/problem.

We can even save money on some jobs ... by using handicap people as slaves rather than importing slaves from elsewhere.

Bap33 says

no EPA
no CARB
no Air Pollution Control District
no AFLCIO
no Teamsters
no OSHA
no Industrial Labor Law
no Affirmitive Action
no GLAD compliance
no Maternity Leave law
no Fraternity Leave law
no Handicap Access law
no Obama mandated health care.
no fear of being sued for bogus horseshit like WalMart, K-Mart, Savemart, Sears, and every other big corp gets sued for here.

.... would someone please affix a "Conservative" and a "Liberal" to each of those things I listed so we may all give thanks where thanks is due.

Why not just openly convert to Fascism and be done with it. That's what you are talking about. The "Right of Kings" extended to corporations. Want to dump dioxin in my river at night? Yes sir, I'll gladly help dig the trench for the pipe and I totally understand your need for a tongue bath of your hindquarters. As ApocalypseFuck so eloquently put it, the nobility should be able to murder if it wants to just for fun. After all what's the point of being at the top of the pyramid otherwise?

Bap, good job in listing the underlying causes of a hostile business environment in California. In reality, layer upon layer of regulations are exactly what makes California companies non-competitive when compared to business friendly states or even business friendly countries...which is why they are leaving the state.

You do know the same thing is happening in other states with excessive taxes and regulations like Illinois and New York don't you?

Ah, to be liberal, and believe that Utopia can be obtained if only they tax successful people enough and force them to pay their "fair share". In other words - steal from one group and hand it over to a different "more deserving" group.