patrick.net

Good quote further on:

"Was he the nut job who started the federal reserve? You know that owning your own currency is one of major factors you went to war with the brittish right? Why one would turn that over to a private company is amazingly stupid. You now borrow your currency from a company, and pay interest. How do you pay back that interest? By borrowing even more money... from the same company. It's so retarded that it's mind boggling."

The Federal Resrve is not a "private company." It's a quasi govt. agency.

if democratic ideas were right soviet union would be kicking our ass right now. I guess that didn't work out quite well.

Why would I care what a single individual in Sweden thinks, that is a puny little country, barely on the map. They have their own problems. Soviets complained about injustice in America too until their society crashed because they were all destitute sharing their misery.

wow, the swedish person sez:

I rent an 2 bdr apartment (860 sq ft) in a good neighborhood for $850/month.

bingo. I totally lack data on the general rent level in the high-tax high-service economies, but that datapoint is confirmatory to my thesis that all taxes come out of rents.

I was an economic naif in the 2000-2002 period, so I did not foresee in 2001 that the 2001 tax cuts would boost real estate prices here.

This lack of understanding of the importance of the land market, and that low taxes in the end just boost land prices, is why I'm notionally a left-libertarian and not a right-libertarian.

That and I think government has to step in and kneecap rent-seekers at every opportunity.

EMan says

They have their own problems.

Sweden projects budget surplus build-up

http://www.thelocal.se/33176/20110413/

He as a teacher in Sweden makes less than half of what senior teachers make here. He is poor by American standards. And he pays a ton of taxes. For our family of 3 life is cheaper here and it is better

EMan says

He is poor by American standards

No, *we* are poor by American standards.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=19W

He doesn't have any student loans to repay, Swedish health costs are 1/4th ours, and Swedish government spending is largely returned to the people in the form of public goods and services.

AND his pension money is secure since Swedish debt to GDP is 40%, very healthy compared to our 93% ($14T/$15T).

The Swedish economy is roughly in balance. Ours is $1.6T out of balance in terms of government finance, and $600B/yr trade imbalance.

http://www.census.gov/indicator/www/ustrade.html

you talk about spending more than you make, our trade imbalance is pretty serious shit that nobody is proposing to fix.

Sweden has a trade surplus.

EMan says

if democratic ideas were right soviet union would be kicking our ass right now. I guess that didn't work out quite well.

Why would I care what a single individual in Sweden thinks, that is a puny little country, barely on the map. They have their own problems. Soviets complained about injustice in America too until their society crashed because they were all destitute sharing their misery.

Don't confuse democracy with capitalism...

Why should you care "what one person in Sweden thinks"? Oh never mind... It's a made up country anyway, doesn't really exist... America is all there is...

Anyone read the rest of the posts?...

EMan says

Why would I care what a single individual in Sweden thinks

You wouldn't. You shouldn't care about anything that challenges your BELIEFS. But, if you can't listen to facts that refute your beliefs, maybe you could come up with some facts to confirms them. Oh, wait. Why ? You know what you believe, you don't have to convince yourself or anyone else.

And you have plenty of sources for mindless support of those emotions,
if you need it. Who needs facts ?

EMan says

He as a teacher in Sweden makes less than half of what senior teachers make here

Wrong. You may cite highest pay you have ever heard of in suburbs of Chicago or New York, but average senior pay in all the US is under 60K.

He said $2,900, after tax. That is more than 3/4 of what the *average* senior teacher here makes (after tax and pension contribution is taken out). And that's with their high taxes and great pension.

They have way less poverty. Everyone can pursue up to a PHD for free. They get a lot of vacation time, free health care and a good pension. And a nice 2 bedroom apartment in a nice area for $860 ?

It's so fucking civilized.

From a ways down that Reddit thread, an Australian chimes in (just part of
what he says):

All of these benefits, taxes adds up to an affordable lifesyle. Now that is something the US can do. All it really has to do is spend less on War and War machine, spend more on its population, collect more taxes from its richest.
This has been proven all over the world from Scandanavia to the South Seas. The only reason this has not been implemented in the US is because of the apathy and idiocy of your pupolation which year after year keeps putting into power those that do not have your best interest at heart. Moreover you despise any politican that is likely to tell you the truth of it.
Imagine how obscene it is for the rest of the world to be watching while US politicians debate whether they need to borrow more. I mean think about, this is the sole military superpower in the world and it can't even manage its books. More horrid is the fact you expect the rest of the world to loan you the money you need to build more weapons .. not create more jobs. I mean this is so obcene it is on the same scale as the tinpot dictators in Africa who spend their meagre resource on weapons and palaces rather than shoring up their countries resources.

it is all a joke here, yes.

$3T in added defense expenditure 2001-2009 and a $3T tax cut on top. WTF did people think would happen?

Are we really this stupid?

The right's professional liars try to say the Bush tax cuts increased revenues:

"In fact, the Bush tax cuts actually increased government revenue. According to economist Brian Reidl of the Heritage Foundation . . ."

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/03/lying_about_bushs_tax_cuts.html

Revenue did pick up 2004-2007:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=1a2

but that was entirely driven by private borrowing doubling from $1T/yr to $2T/yr:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=1a4

You know I used to be a hard core fox news watcher and consider myself a die hard Republican. I have a lot of military service and have critized social healthcare while enjoying it myself. I can tell you this. We need to fix this country because we have dicked it up for the past 30 years. They way we treat each other in this country and the amount of apathy is disgusting.

I learned first hand from multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan that people are making some serious money off these wars. I have seen it first hand and it makes me sick. The amount of wasted money on contracts is just criminal. Our military is so far advanced we wouldn't have to make any improvements for the next 30 years and we would still dominate.

I can tell you now that my views have changed from the far right to a more a patriotic libertarian. The MIC needs to get under control. We have to realize the super rich control our politicians through lobbying and control us through their ownership of the media. We have to realize that we need to take care of our citizens and pull back from these ridiculous conflicts that are eating up our resources. Our education system needs some real attention and not just lip service. Look what just happened in Atlanta. I am sure that is not the only place where we have issues.

People point and scoff at some of these European countries, but do you realize they get mandated time off. Some of you are out there slaving your lives away to catch the scraps off the ground, and for what. To live in a nice big house why your children's futures are just lobbyed away?

I am more left now than I have ever been and I am a left patriot. I have put my life on the line for my country only to see politician after politician vote in the best interests of the rich while sending poor kids off to their wars to make them even more rich. The trade surpluses we have are crushing us as a nation. This makes CEO's and share holders ultra rich. What was the average pay of a CEO in the 70's compared to now? I bet there is a stark difference.

We need to pull ourselves back a bit and take a look inward.

marcus says

EMan says

He as a teacher in Sweden makes less than half of what senior teachers make here

Wrong. You may cite highest pay you have ever heard of in suburbs of Chicago or New York, but average senior pay in all the US is under 60K.

He said $2,900, after tax. That is more than 3/4 of what the *average* senior teacher here makes (after tax and pension contribution is taken out). And that's with their high taxes and great pension.

They have way less poverty. Everyone can pursue up to a PHD for free. They get a lot of vacation time, free health care and a good pension. And a nice 2 bedroom apartment in a nice area for $860 ?

It's so fucking civilized.

marcus if you think grass is greener there than move out there. US is a free country, you are free to move out.

My wife and I travel a lot, Europe is a lot more poor. Their poor are much more poor. Their working are a lot more poor. They make less and their prices are very close to that of US. I'm convinced that we are one of the few countries that actually produces enough food to feed themselves and others.

My neighbor is a teacher. She makes almost 90 grand. She owns 3 houses, has a pension, healthcare, etc... If Europeans could, they'd jump onto that train faster than Tom on Jerry. So spare me the grass is greener there. It isn't.

We are not soviet union either, you are free to leave if you do not like your country.

Truthplease says

I learned first hand from multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan that people are making some serious money off these wars. I have seen it first hand and it makes me sick. The amount of wasted money on contracts is just criminal.

I can tell you now that my views have changed from the far right to a more a patriotic libertarian.

How does someone who makes $90k a year afford 3 houses? That does not sound right unless she got some sort of huge inheritance.

EMan says

US is a free country, you are free to move out.

Classic republican line. CLASSIC !

EMan says

She makes almost 90 grand

I knew you would go to the extreme. I told you the average senior pay for the country is under 60K. This is true. We don't know how senior the guy on reddit is. Probably not very. If your neighbor makes 90K in LA where the top pay is 72K, then it includes summer school and a lot of other extra work.

We already know that for you everything is about you, your self interest. You have no clue what the job market is like out there now, and nor do you care about the opportunities that future generations have. Your belief in low taxes being good for this country is really ONLY about how it is good for you.

If I didn't have hope that many Americans are more compassionate and more intelligent than you, I would leave.

don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Most Americans do care, which is why we don't want debt and government crushing our children's future. Of course your crony union doesn't care about that, as long as you get your way.

Spare me your sob stories, I've dealt with your union many times. It's always the most frustrating, most snobbish and entitled and complacent group I've ever met.

EMan says

Most Americans do care, which is why we don't want debt and government crushing our children's future.

Troy says

$3T in added defense expenditure 2001-2009 and a $3T tax cut on top. WTF did people think would happen?

AS for your emotional jibberish about unions, I guess it's good that you can pin the blame somewhere other than where it belongs, and that you're gullible enough to buy that hogwash propaganda. I've explained it all before, there are no rich elites in the LA teachers union. Everyone is on the same pay scale, including the officers of the union.

EMan says

don't let the door hit you on the way out.

How did the "union" get into this thread?... Always back to the same bugaboos with you guys...

If Americans knew what to care about they wouldn't vote people into office who continue to strip them of the resources that could be used to build this country up. Instead the arguments continue to be confused and diluted by people like you and your "I'm fine and i know another person i think is too so FU" arguments. In your world education cuts don't exist, tent cities don't exist, an infant mortality rate nearing a third world banana republic doesn't exist, because you're doing fine.

Well fucking congratulations. Enjoy your next holiday in europe. Don't worry about who the door hits on your way out.

marcus says

AS for your emotional jibberish about unions

Republicans are pretty smooth operators, huh? They got the nation to spend $3T EXTRA (over FY00) on the military, restore their oil companies' access to Iraq, cut their capital gains taxes in half, AND de-fund the state so your pension and your workplace is on the chopping block.

The chances that they have actually permanently crippled our country by their 1995-2006 policies are unknowable now, but AFAICT not as low as one would assume.

I don't know why it is so hard to understand we need to lower spending in some areas and raise taxes? If tax cuts are supposed to create jobs, it hasn't worked that well. I personally believe our low job rates in the 2000’s were only driven by consumer spending due to the American populace being severely in debt. When half of the people you know are buying nice cars and consuming to the hilt by leveraging a house and credit card to perpetuate this materialism, it couldn’t last. This country has partied hard for the last 8 to 10 years and now we are waking up with a hangover. I get disgusting about it sometimes because I was coming back from all these combat tours and stepped back into this alternate American reality. Spending, spending, spending! I will never regret my decision to serve my country because you need people willing to sacrifice for this nation. However, .1 percent of the country made huge sacrifices while another unknown percentage was allowed to act irresponsibly and now put our country at serious risk. Almost to the point I would consider treasonous.

Guess what, it is time to knuckle down and work on fixing this nation. It will take sacrifices from everyone by raises taxes and cutting our spending. We need more regulation because it is VERY apparent the average American or business cannot act responsibly. When I hear politicians say we need to bail out banks or else it will destroy us, woooaw buddy, that needs to be addressed.

We have a lot of hard decisions to make in the next decade. We cannot tune into corporate news and expect to hear the truth otherwise we end up as one of George Orwell’s books.

I just don’t get it. It seems almost like an anarchist point of view to not raise taxes. If we want to reduce government to the point of non-functioning, then wouldn’t we be getting into the anarchist realm? Isn’t anarchism probably the most radical left we could see, but some of these views are touted as far right or conservative view points?

Dictionary:

Anarchism – a doctrine urging the abolition of government or governmental restraint as the indispensable condition for full social and political liberty.

Troy says

Are we really this stupid?

Apparently we are. We spent too much so the solution is to spend even more - except for some reason it will be different this time.

EightBall says

Apparently we are. We spent too much so the solution is to spend even more - except for some reason it will be different this time.

How about we grow up and quit using lame cliches to describe a fairly complex problem.

So which programs would you cut EightBall and how much would that save? No more talking points. Give us specifics.

tatupu70 says

How about we grow up and quit using lame cliches to describe a fairly complex problem.

Grow up? The main complaint of the democrats is that GWB and the republicans spent too much money via tax breaks. Then they get grumpy saying that we need to spend more money ala ARRA or other government pork and we need to borrow more money. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

HousingWatcher says

So which programs would you cut EightBall and how much would that save? No more talking points. Give us specifics.

How about the military and foreign aid coupled with a reform of the tax code? You can't talk about reducing spending with a straight face and not do something about military spending. Foreign aid is not that huge but it is stupid to borrow money and send it overseas - even if this is a token amount.

I've repeatedly stated that income is income and giving preferential treatment based on what type of income it is ludicrous. If that is a tax increase on some people so be it - why do middle earners pay a higher percentage of their income than high-income people? That's just not right.

Stop hiding the SSI tax burden on the employers. Everything you pay in SSI is being paid by your employer. That is what 15% or so? Yeah yeah it is SSI it isn't a tax but we spend it all anyway and gets included in the general revenues one way or another. Stop the madness - tax everyone at some arbitrary amount (20%? 25%?) that will give us enough $$ to run the government but exclude the first 20k or 40k so the low-income people get a break. It would also make sense to adjust this for regional cost of living but that might be difficult to figure out.

The dems would rule the day if they would get off their own jock and frame the issue correctly but for some reason they are bent on self destruction. How can they be against a balanced budget amendment? I'd prefer you-can't-spend-more-than-total-receipts of the previous year budgeting but I'm just looney I guess.

Cut corporate subsidies and lower the corporate tax rate. They aren't paying jack crap anyway under the current influence peddling model where the government picks winners and losers in an elaborate shell game.

Sweden = tax people/incomes, nothing else

Dan Savage, polyamorous advocate, and sometime pundit on other matters, advocates for political positions that are near impossible to pass on a national level. But he doesn't advocate for the method to his own madness. The states are where he should be looking, but he's not. He wants the feds to fun everything like they do in Sweden.

EightBall says

Grow up? The main complaint of the democrats is that GWB and the republicans spent too much money via tax breaks. Then they get grumpy saying that we need to spend more money ala ARRA or other government pork and we need to borrow more money. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

We do need to borrow more money. At this point, it is WAY too late to change that. We made our bed in the early and mid-2000s and now we have to lie in it.

There is no overnight fix. We need to raise taxes and cut spending. But it needs to be phased in over time so as not to shock us back to recession or depression. Democrats understand this. Obama understands this.

Unfortunately, Republicans don't want to solve the problem. Instead they want to score political points with their base. They think that if the economy tanks, then the public will hang it on Obama. They may be right. But let's not be fooled about what is going on now.

They didn't improve the economy, obviously. They weakened it, and by 2020 they will be responsible for about $8T of our national debt, and we will be paying $400B/yr in interest for them.

Nope. The Bush tax cuts didn't weaken the economy. An unfinanced war in the middle east paid for through the extraction of equity from domestic housing stock is what has tanked the economy.

The Romans tried this. It failed.

War making is what bring down great powers. Not tax cuts.

Sheesh.

why do middle earners pay a higher percentage of their income than high-income people? That's just not right.

I try to explain the nature of tax breaks to people I know. One complaint I get a lot is "why is by employer taking everybody to X restaurant to everyone to get shitfaced."

It's tax breaks. The capital employees previously received in compensation or bonuses is now just another tax writeoff to their employer. The employer is spending your money for you because of the tax code.

The employer is paying you in Home Depot gift cards instead of cash because the tax code.

Obama phallus fluffer, NBC, paid no taxes last year because of the tax code.

Zandi is going after the mortage interest deduction. The Fed is targeting it too.

We don't know how senior the guy on reddit is.

Yes we do. He is Dan Savage, b.1964.

marcus says

AS for your emotional jibberish about unions, I guess it's good that you can pin the blame somewhere other than where it belongs, and that you're gullible enough to buy that hogwash propaganda. I've explained it all before, there are no rich elites in the LA teachers union. Everyone is on the same pay scale, including the officers of the union.

Marcus that is just not true. There is a lot of fraud and corruption right at the top. Why is it that in this state taxes constantly rise, poor constantly get poorer, teachers always get laid off, and yet government officials constantly rank in more and more dough. There are way too many robert rizo types out there.

FBI needs to investigate every single union, municipality and government official in CA starting at the top. Not just finally after years of injury and injustice start investigating one city because they so blatantly started robbing the HUD funds they received. Because that's not an exception, that is the norm in CA government and it's leadership.

Complacent, selfish, fraudulent, crony, entitled. That shoe fits.

wtfcapinv says

The Bush tax cuts didn't weaken the economy. An unfinanced war in the middle east paid for through the extraction of equity from domestic housing stock is what has tanked the economy.

No, the war was financed through government borrowing, and we could borrow thanks to our trade deficit pushing USD overseas, and the reason our trading partners had booming sales is due to the housing bubble, which was caused by lower interest rates, the tax cuts, and the rise of suicide lending.

The tax cuts were entirely unnecessary in that they didn't stimulate anything worth stimulating. The added debt/GDP they created is probably going to kill us later this decade as things run out to their end states.

No, the war was financed through government borrowing, and we could borrow thanks to our trade deficit pushing USD overseas, and the reason our trading partners had booming sales is due to the housing bubble, which was caused by lower interest rates, the tax cuts, and the rise of suicide lending.

You're just picking up the nuts left behind to find our way back home.

The borrowing is dependent on manufactured GDP data. Can't borrow if it costs too much to do so.

The tax cuts were designed to address the recession that began in 2000Q3. Is that in your memory bank?

wtfcapinv says

The tax cuts were designed to address the recession that began in 2000Q3. Is that in your memory bank?

No, the Bush tax cuts were planned in 1999 to loot the country -- to "return" our surplus tax money when it was only in surplus thanks to FICA overpayments. Bush ran on cutting income taxes in the Republican primary.

It's now the Republican answer to everything, including the $1.6T budget deficit now.

''Nothing is more important in the face of a war, than cutting taxes.'' -- Tom Delay.

tatupu70 says

There is no overnight fix. We need to raise taxes and cut spending. But it needs to be phased in over time so as not to shock us back to recession or depression. Democrats understand this. Obama understands this.

The democrats had their chance and BLEW IT. Where were they two years ago? Oh yeah they were busy buying off senators to pass a health care bill while Rome was burning. Now that it has been reduced to ashes, they suddenly are the voice of reason?

EightBall says

Where were they two years ago? Oh yeah they were busy buying off senators to pass a health care bill while Rome was burning.

Nobody wanted to raise taxes -- even on millionaires -- in 2009, 2010. Just like the Republicans demagogued medicare spending cuts to boot out Senators like Feingold, they would have ran attack ads on the Democrats raising taxes in a recession and making it worse. The Dems remembered what happened to them in 1994 and weren't going to repeat that mistake again.

Now that it has been reduced to ashes, they suddenly are the voice of reason?

What passes for reason in this shitty country, yes. Not that too many other peoples have their act together now. Probably countable on one hand.

EightBall says

The democrats had their chance and BLEW IT. Where were they two years ago? Oh yeah they were busy buying off senators to pass a health care bill while Rome was burning. Now that it has been reduced to ashes, they suddenly are the voice of reason?

So, trying to rein in medical costs in the US isn't important? Really? I would think that should be pretty near the top of the list with the boomers nearing retirement.

tatupu70 says

So, trying to rein in medical costs in the US isn't important? Really? I would think that should be pretty near the top of the list with the boomers nearing retirement.

You actually believe this is what they did or even tried to do? I have some swamp land in florida and a bridge in NYC for sale if you are interested...