patrick.net

HousingWatcher says

If Obama breaks the contract and allows the layoffs to happen, he will be toast in the election.

Ummm, what does Obama have to do with this?

Congress has oversight over USPS, not the president. Obama may sign the legislation, but Congress has to decide.

Honestly, I don't know why USPS doesn't charge a lot more. Germany charges probably twice what we do on postage, and Germany is a tiny country relative to the US, especially when you consider that it costs the same to send something from remote Alaska to Miami as it does from Tampa. People complain about postage increases, but we really have it easy here.

What people also don't realize is that USPS has cut costs by quite a bit. They have stopped some remote mail delivery, which is rather expensive compared to urban delivery. They have cut a ton of workers. They have removed a lot of blue mailboxes. Times have changed, sure, but so has USPS.

That's what I meant. Obama has to sign the legislation. He is the president after all and USPS is part of the federal govt.

People don't have a thousand dollars who's got postage?

What people also don't realize is that USPS has cut costs by quite a bit

In the land of make believe, this tall tale is a social more. Mythology is dead. Why perpetuate it?

It's the starting labor costs and overly generous contracts that lock the USPS into an unsustainable course.

The secret to prosperity is low wages, except for a handful of people.

That's how you create wealth. Look at Africa, they're rich!

More right wing nonsense. UPS is doing quite well and they pay their workers MORE than the post office.

wtfcapinv says

It's the starting labor costs and overly generous contracts that lock the USPS into an unsustainable course.

lol. Really? So, now it's teachers and mailmen that are the problem with the US?

Enough. this is getting more ridiculous by the moment. How about we look at the difference between CEO pay and mailperson pay over time. Has it gotten smaller or larger over the last 50 years? Maybe that will lead you in the correct direction...

The Republican position is to blame workers for every problem... only govt, unionized workers of course. Non union private sector workers, like, oh I don't know, investment bankers at Lehman Brothers can NEVER be at fault.

HousingWatcher says

UPS is doing quite well and they pay their workers MORE than the post office.

I'm not so sure about that. 35 years ago UPS was known for having great part time jobs and pay. But I doubt that they now pay better than the post office. In fact I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/UPS-Hourly-Pay-E3012.htm

But I agree with

tatupu70 says

So, now it's teachers and mailmen that are the problem with the US?

IT's amazing the way the dimbulbs are cheering for our standard of living to decrease. I'm really curious how many of trolls on here are wealthy trust fund baby types.

If you look at the stock market when taxes were higher, and the middle class was getting a bigger piece of the pie, you might understand where they are coming from. (stock market in 82 was no higher than it was in 1966).

Slave labor is good for the stock market. Once we get all government service jobs knocked down in pay, we can start working on lowering the private sector down a couple more notches.

Yeah baby !

OF course our consumer driven economy will be fucked, but hey, you can't have everything.

(I could be wrong. Maybe Shrek, ChrisLa, Abe, Ray etc aren't rich. MAybe they are just teabagger types buying the propaganda from the rich)

I was referring to full time UPS workers. They make very good money since they are unionized. They get about $30 an hour, plus overtime and benefits. A full time UPS worker makes far more than a full time USPS worker with the same job duties.

From the article linked above

Furthermore, as we previously noted, the key sticking point in cost reduction negotiations is the labor force compensation (80% of all costs), which is paid an average of $41.15 an hour,

That's average.

I've heard it's not as good as it used to be (UPS), but that may have been referring only to the part time jobs.

That USPS figure includes benefits.

How is it hypocritcal? It's the same thing... attacking unions. It does not matter to me if a Dem or a Repub attacks unions. You see, unlike you, I am not a partisan or a party loyalist. When a Dem does something bad, I call them out on it.

I require all mail to me be delivered by personal courier. That way I can shoot the messenger.

corntrollio says

Honestly, I don't know why USPS doesn't charge a lot more. Germany charges probably twice what we do on postage, and Germany is a tiny country relative

Typical liberal response to compare us to someplace more expensive!. I'm sure there are lots of countries that also charge a lot less too.

HousingWatcher says

would like to see how these layoffs are going to be imposed since the current contract with the postal workers' union has a no lay off clause through 2015.

For starters, they would stop any hiring. People retiring / quitting / dieing, etc would not necessarily be replaced or be replaced internally. They could offer early retirement or pay people to leave. Given how long it takes the Post Office or any other large governmant type of organization to do anything of this scale, even if they arated now it would probably take a year even if they wanted to lay off that many people.

marcus says

IT's amazing the way the dimbulbs are cheering for our standard of living to decrease.

It's more like we don't like paying high taxes and prices so that a priviledged few can get huge salaries and benefits (espically pensions) for manual labor.

These layoffs are long overdue! We really only need residential mail delivery 2x weekly anyway. Cut the fat!

zzyzzx says

It's more like we don't like paying high taxes and prices so that a priviledged few can get huge salaries and benefits (espically pensions) for manual labor.

I'm with you. Let's get some sort of board of director reform going so Wall St. and CEO pay gets back to realistic levels.

Oh wait. You were talking about mailmen? really?

lol. Really? So, now it's teachers and mailmen that are the problem with the US?

Regulated capital markets with a monopoly of the labor supply?

How old are you? Who taught you what you know?

I suspect your skillset is rather low. It's not in your nature. It's how you're nurtured.

That USPS figure includes benefits.

Define "benefits"? Health insurance + pension + every last contract guarantee including the right to punch your boss in the face and not lose your job?

zzyzzx says

For starters, they would stop any hiring. People retiring / quitting / dieing, etc would not necessarily be replaced or be replaced internally. They could offer early retirement or pay people to leave. Given how long it takes the Post Office or any other large governmant type of organization to do anything of this scale, even if they arated now it would probably take a year even if they wanted to lay off that many people.

How many other businesses do you know that are as large as USPS that have cut 20% of employees in the last 20 years? That's despite a larger population, meaning more people needed mail delivery. Career employees have been cut by more than 20%, which means the benefits pool has likely shrunk by a larger proportion than the overall number of employees.

http://www.postalreporternews.net/2011/04/12/usps-workforce-size-and-employment-categories-1990-2010/

What's costing more money right now is that the number of rural carriers is up (even as city carriers have dropped quite a bit). That's why USPS is cutting more and more service to more remote locations, as I said before.

Most people who complain about USPS don't understand all the facts and just talk.

zzyzzx says

Typical liberal response to compare us to someplace more expensive!

What does this have to do with liberal vs. conservative vs. any other ideology. It's not an ideological point. Running a business costs something, and the revenue brought in should cover it. That's not liberalism -- that's capitalism.

zzyzzx says

I'm sure there are lots of countries that also charge a lot less too.

Care to name them?

The postal service should have nipped Fed-Ex and UPS in the bud, when they were starting out. The US should have only allowed USPS to deliver packages to the addresses using the Federal Address naming system.

Fed-Ex and UPS should have been subcontractors, of the USPS if at all.

The USPS operating costs are another reason for the US government to have kept a lid on Oil speculation, the USPS wouldn't be having these problems today.

The USPS needs take over email delivery. Charge a penny per message - would cut down on SPAM because it would be pricey to send 10M messages. It will make it easier for the government to spy on us to boot.

What does this have to do with liberal vs. conservative vs. any other ideology.

The hell it is. It's the very nature of most disagreements between the factions. One wants the government to do it. The other wants free enterprise to do it.

FedEx already carries most of the overnight and global deliveries for USPS. Guess why?

They won't lay anyone off. They'll probably restructure and either reduce the benefits or get bailed out by politicians who are worried about reelection.

Let's remind the conservative/libertarian/teabagger/republican wackos about what Congress is supposed to do as specified in the US Constitution. (You know, that pesky document that they've been busy using as toilet paper...)

United States Constitution, Article I, Section VIII (Enumerated Powers)

The Congress shall have power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current coin of the United States;

To ESTABLISH POST OFFICES and POST ROADS;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;—And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

So, the wingut wackos harp about the power of government to collect taxes. Well, that power is vested in Congress in the US Constitution. The power to borrow money is specifically vested in Congress too.

Also the USPS is mandated in the US Constitution to be created and maintained by Congress.

The conservatives/libertarians/republicans/teabaggers have been trying to destroy all public institutions. This is fundamentally against the US Constitution.

wtfcapinv says

The hell it is. One wants the government to do it. The other wants free enterprise to do it.

Except, why should we listen to ideologues EVER. An ideologue believes that they have the one true solution, and their circular logic construes everything around that flawed central ideology. Ideologues have the certainty of always being dead wrong. The real answer tends to be a combination of factors and requires quite a bit more pragmatism than an ideologue will ever give a problem.

Charles Hugh Smith wrote about this recently and wrote about it well:

Ideologies are prefabricated boxes. They come with a ready-made self-referential internal logic: B follows from A because I believe in A. Facts are "cherry-picked" to support the internal logic, but the truly key component in any ideology, Left, Right or Libertarian, is magical thinking, i.e. wishful thinking.

I can illustrate this very simply.

The basic assumption of any ideology or "ideological "debate" (quotes explained in a moment) is that all problems would be resolved if only the "other side" came round to your conviction.

So let's follow that through: if all Republicans suddenly agreed with Paul Krugman and Robert Reich, would Peak Everything be resolved? Would the U.S.A.'s dependence on exponentially rising debt and imported oceans of oil magically go away? Would the consequences of The End of Work vanish? Would the consequences of 72 million (or 79 million counting legal immigrants) Baby Boomers retiring, fully 25% of the entire population, magically disappear?

Now repeat the question for the flip-side of the coin: if Democrats suddenly saw the light about free markets, low taxes, etc., and became die-hard Republicans, would any of these structural problems suddenly go away? No.

Though each ideology claims to have the "answers," the "answers" are all magical thinking: if only the wealthy would pay more taxes, if only taxes were lowered, if only those SUV drivers would buy a Prius, if only we cut Pentagon spending, etc. etc. etc. All of these ideology-generated "solutions" are just tweaking the parameters of internally doomed systems.

FortWayne says

They won't lay anyone off.

Now we're resting on this nonsense? They already said 220K jobs have to go, 120K through layoffs and 100K through natural attrition. Even if they laid off only half of the people they said and reduced benefits for everyone else, they'd still be cutting their workforce in 2015 by 24% since 2010 and 39% since 1990 and cutting long-term costs significantly.

Again, name any comparable big business that has done that or will do that. We are looking at a significant decrease in USPS no matter which way we slice it.

wtfcapinv says

The hell it is. It's the very nature of most disagreements between the factions. One wants the government to do it. The other wants free enterprise to do it.

Nice strawman.

A good sign of intellectual honesty is being able to argue the other guy's side better than he can.

Conservatives got off the intellectual honesty train quite some time ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/books/28conserv.html

I love USPS and use it whenever I get the choice for shipping.

The package Nazis (UPS) I've had repeated problems with boxes arriving looking a gorilla stomped on it. Also gave me months of trouble before I extracted my due on an insurance claim. NEVER use these guys if you can avoid it.