patrick.net

CL says

Krugman isn't disagreeing with the fact me, really. If you aren't living up to your potential, it is a waste for society as a whole.

what Krugman is also missing is that the 5%'s income isn't coming from the Mines of Zanzibar or among themselves but from from the 95%.

It's a real one-way street, pulling trillions out of the paycheck economy, and why we're fucked.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/GINIALLRH

You should see my rants at DeLong's.

Dan8267 says

Capitalism

Can't "Like" that enough. Perfectly stated.

CL said: God, can you imagine how expensive our toys would be if we didn't enslave people?
Motorola's MotoX will be assembled at a Flextronics plant in Texas. BTW, come November, you'll be able to by a MotoX smartphone and get unlimited text&talk with Republic Wireless for $10 a month (data available using WiFi).

Edit: change to CL said:

CL says

What else can be done?

Tax land rents (site values actually)

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/DHUTRC1Q027SBEA

and that's only residential. Imagine how much we pay for commercial real estate that's embedded in consumer prices, too.

Tax imports and give tax-breaks for exports.

Forcibly reform our health system to work along Canadian/German/Japanese lines.

Work on "free" energy for everyone. (Not free per se but some sort of rationed access to a renewable system such that if you are efficient with energy usage it disappears as a life cost).

Mass transit that didn't suck (max 15 minute wait) would be a good start, too.

That would eliminate the major rent taps that are sucking the life out of the middle-quintile economy.

Probably should convert college education to the nominal cost model too. People are graduating $30,000 in debt now, that sucks.

Then again when it was nominal cost I took 7 years to graduate, going half-time a lot since I was working so much.

EBGuy says

Motorola's MotoX will be assembled

final assembly though. Not a great % of the actual labor is being done in Texas, but it's a start.

Bellingham Bill says

Mass transit that didn't suck (max 15 minute wait) would be a good start, too.

But that only works well in high population densities, no? How's that possible in suburban USA?

freak80 says

But that only works well in high population densities, no? How's that possible in suburban USA?

80/20 rule -- get 80% of the people served first, and a good start.

People wouldn't have to live in BFE if our urban cores were actually functional like other countries.

Whenever I go to LA I marvel at the deadspace in the center. A hundred square miles where I dare not get off the freeway.

You visit other countries? How un-American. ;-)

EBGuy says

curious2 said:

Really? I hadn't even commented in this thread. Learn to use the quote function.

Here's the last word: everybody knows that greater wealth disparity is good for us. The greater the wealth and income concentration, the better off we all are. All of the worlds' most prosperous and peaceful nations have huge wealth disparity. When 99% of the populace lives in poverty, and the 1% control all of the natural resources, the government, the police, the military, the media...that's the definition of prosperity.

The wealth and power of the 1% will eventually trickle down to the 99% when the 1% invests their money in the creation slave-labor jobs for the 99%. The fact that the 99% won't make enough money to buy the stuff they are producting doesn't matter.

The 1% will invest in education because an educated 99% is absolutely no threat whatsoever to the established 1%.

sbh says

freak80 says

The fact that the 99% won't make enough money to buy the stuff they are producting doesn't matter.

Even with a broke population it's no problem since supply creates its own demand: if you make it they will buy.

Exactly right, credit cards will facilitate this.

zzyzzx,

It's easier to pick on the weak than it is to pick on the strong, isn't it?

You defend your overlords without giving it a second thought. And then you blame our national problems on people who can barely feed themselves.

The poor don't have enought money to buy a law to turn you into a slave. But the ultra-wealthy sure do.

Who should you be worried about?

zzyzzx says

Which is way more then 47% of the population.

freak80 says

You defend your overlords without giving it a second thought. And then you blame our national problems on people who can barely feed themselves.

It's a broken record.

Call it Crazy says

Ha Ha.... he has a better accountant then you do!!

And so that makes it fair?

I don't understand.

"It's fair that the super-rich pay a lower tax rate than I do, but it's not fair that poor people pay a lower tax rate than I do."

Where does that mentality come from?

freak80 says

Call it Crazy says

Ha Ha.... he has a better accountant then you do!!

And so that makes it fair?

He has better lobbyists, and no that doesn't make it fair, or rational economic policy (except from the lobbyists' POV). BTW, while people blame Romney for the low tax rates on "carried interest", and I'm not going to defend him, he isn't the one who wrote those rules. Pat Robertson campaigned unsuccessfully for the Republican nomination, but his mentality took over the party, and the Democrats have often operated as a "Lite" version of the same thing.

curious2 says

Pat Robertson campaigned unsuccessfully for the Republican nomination, but his mentality took over the party, and the Democrats have often operated as a "Lite"
version of the same thing.

I don't understand.

Call it Crazy says

Just as a side note, like I mentioned in the other thread, some people like to throw around "percentages".... Do some quick math to see true "dollars"...

Any measure of fairness looks at percentages, not dollars.

If I make a billion dollars a year, paying 1 million in taxes is nothing. If I make $20,000 a year, paying 1 million in taxes requires a lifetime of debt slavery.

Are you done defending our overlords yet? Why do so many peons (which is 99% of us) defend extreme wealth and power? Is it Stockholm Syndrome?

freak80 says

I don't understand.

In 1986, Pat Robertson launched his unsuccessful campaign for the 1988 Republican Presidential nomination. His candidacy symbolized the rise of Christian fundamentalism in the Republican party, which even Barry Goldwater had complained about years before. Robertson's promises included eliminating the Department of Education and the Department of Energy. He lost the battle but may have won the war within that party; Pat Buchanan declared a "culture war" and Rick Perry and other Republicans often sound like him.

The Democrats have often been only slightly "left" of the Republicans, and as the Republicans have marched "right," the Democrats are often to the "right" of where the Republicans used to be. For example, President Nixon proposed a plan similar to Obamacare, but emphasized it would be voluntary. Nixon also proposed a negative income tax, i.e. a guaranteed minimum income, which instead became the "earned income tax credit" that enables Walmart to underpay workers; today we get ZIRP for TBTF banks and QE to keep housing prices elevated.

freak80 says

Where does that mentality come from?

Probably from seeing taxes as payment for government services.

Call it Crazy says

I wish you made 20 million last year... would you share it with us??

Shit, making 20M a year, and having to pay 2.8M for the privilege of living in a country that lets you pocket about $17M+ in cold hard cash?

curious2 says

EBGuy says

curious2 said:

Really? I hadn't even commented in this thread. Learn to use the quote function.

My apologies. I fixed it in the original. (Now how about selecting a unique icon...)

EBGuy says

My apologies. I fixed it in the original. (Now how about selecting a unique icon...)

Thanks. Done:

@curious2 Nice!

sbh says

reak80 says

The fact that the 99% won't make enough money to buy the stuff they are producting doesn't matter.

Even with a broke population it's no problem since supply creates its own demand: if you make it they will buy.

Paraphrasing Steve Jobs:

We don't ask the people what they want as they don't know until we tell them.

Yup the Keynesians along with most things have this ass backwards...

Indigenous,

You totally missed the point.

I never got back on this, but I thought I'd add this for the Christians in the group:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+12%3A41-44

"41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.

43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”

Christians should explain the disconnect between the idea that Romney paid a lot, with the edict from Jesus, which clearly shows he did not.

Insofar as Jesus is the arbiter of all things ethical for Republicans, I mean.

CL says

Insofar as Jesus is the arbiter of all things ethical for Republicans, I mean.

Republicans are Randists when it comes to MONEY. You can just forget about trying to appeal to their Christianity on any subject involving economics or "the poor". They look at you like the pig does when you try to explain calculus, it just doesn't come across.

CL, I dont get your point.

Even though Romney is a Mormon, so is Senator Reid.

B.A.C.A.H. says

CL, I dont get your point.

Even though Romney is a Mormon, so is Senator Reid.

Right. Several of the previous posts had said, "Romney gave a LOT of money". Technically, from a Xtian perspective he gave less than the widow in the famous parable.

Mormons believe in the New Testament, right?

CL says

Christians should explain the disconnect between the idea that Romney paid a lot, with the edict from Jesus, which clearly shows he did not.

That is a problem that the majority of the Christian church has worldwide, although there always have been small groups who lived ascetically and gave away most of their belongings. A friend of mine is very religious and devotes the majority of his time helping street kids to get off the streets, recover, get health testing and reintegrate into working society. He even moved to Mexico City with for this with his small team. Although we likely don't see eye-to-eye on many issues, I support his cause 100%. The difference is that they work everyday with these children and develop life-long bonds and there is an argument to be made that you should be able to direct your money to good causes as you see fit, instead of having it forcefully taken (some may say stolen) from the government and losing control over where and who the money goes to.

Our society has become so demented in its thinking that it's ok to steal from one person in order to give to another. We should keep this country as an environment of opportunity and freedom, not one of entitlement.

freak80 says

Are you done defending our overlords yet? Why do so many peons (which is 99% of us) defend extreme wealth and power? Is it Stockholm Syndrome?

That's a very good question, to be asked of the apologists for "government." After all, "government" is a tool serving those with extreme wealth and power, ever since there has been "government."

Money and monetary wealth, so long as measured in honest money, is a check on the "government" (the extreme wealthy and powerful hiding behind that facade). The extreme wealthy and power do not need sound money; sound honest money would only be a hinderance to dictators.

"Government" tax and spending can only lead to concentration of wealth in the long run. "Government" decisions on how to spend the tax revenue is by definition centralized redirection of wealth. Guess where resources would go in such a centralized system? 1. waste; 2. the bureaucratic pyramid, with the imperator (top administrator) consuming the bulk of the share.

Dan8267 says

And those people are poor precisely because the Romneys of the world have incomes of tens of millions of dollars a year without producing a penny of wealth, and most often destroying massive amounts of wealth. Get rid of the Romneys of the world and that 47% would have much higher income and productivity.

Do you sell your own programming skills on your own or do you work for some software company? Presumably, you are keeping your job working for someone else because it pays more than you'd make on your own. So how exactly would the elimination of men who made the company that you work for possible and well funded exactly make you more productive? Do you think you'd be more productive growing food in your backyard instead of working for the software company?

Wealth is created through division of labor (ref. Wealth of Nations). Those who play the most pivotal roles in re-arranging division of labor often create far more wealth than those toiling away at specific productive jobs. Don't ever let your mind be poisoned into belittling free market merchants; the flow of exchange is necessary to division of labor. When the free market merchants are outlawed, the government bureaucrats would be monopolizing the flow of exchange in the society . . . the result is systematic looting the society back into the stone age like in North Korea, instead of innovation and progress through price discovery.

By the way, the federal income tax was intended to be a tax solely on the rich to pay for social services and a safety net for the poor. The poor and the middle class were not meant to pay the income tax. They Romneys of the world were the intended recipients.

The federal income tax was intended to make the federal reserve note introduced in that same year (1913) worth something, as in creating a market demand (to pay taxes). The further purpose was to fund a major war, as it followed in 1914 WWI). The burden of that would of course be carried by the bulk of the population, not the super rich war profiteers.

thunderlips11 says

Shit, making 20M a year, and having to pay 2.8M for the privilege of living in a country that lets you pocket about $17M+ in cold hard cash?

The real issue is whether the other societal members are better served by letting the person who earned the money to decide how the money is spent, or let a gaggle of looters to redistribute the money. Unless you believe someone should break into your own house and steal everything then sell and spend the proceeds on whatever they wish . . . as a way of "stimulating the economy" . . .

Once the looters are in place, how long do you think it would be before the person earning $20M figures out that he needs to buy service from the looters to loot others instead of being looted?

Reality says

The real issue is whether the other societal members are better served by letting the person who earned the money to decide how the money is spent

And by "earned", you mean won the birth lottery. Once you take away the facade that the rich are smarter than everyone else, that entire line of thinking falls away.

tatupu70 says

And by "earned", you mean won the birth lottery. Once you take away the
facade that the rich are smarter than everyone else, that entire line of
thinking falls away.

David E. Sloane or Jay Rockefeller?

Both have famous great-grandfathers. The smartest = richest argument falls flat on its face. I think few would argue that Rockefeller did more for society than Edison.

This is really the crux of the argument - only in America do we idolize the rich and famous so completely. What is so interesting about nouveau riche in Atlanta? (or old money in
New York?) Why are these ugly whores on TV? But I digress...

The bottom line is even those that are extremely weathly by the sweat of their own brow are not the smartest or most talented members of our society. Is there a correlation between IQ and wealth? Certainly - though it is not 1.

Anti-tax libertarians refuse to admit that the largest reason for wealth is circumstance and luck. They are lottery players - ignorant of the chances of winning - enticed by the size of the prize. A one in a million shot of becoming a billionaire is better to them than improving the wealth of what the average Joe will earn - even though it is a million times more likely they will die an average Joe.

Hundreds, if not thousands, of folks just as smart as Bill Gates steal ideas better than MS-DOS every year. The circumstances don't line of for them like they did for Bill. Risk taking is rewarded - but by definition there is a downside - that is why it is called risk.

Call it Crazy says

Just as a side note, like I mentioned in the other thread, some people like to throw around "percentages".... Do some quick math to see true "dollars"...

What's 14% of 20 Million?? It's 2.8 Million, so he paid 2.8 million in taxes in ONE year...

How many years would it take YOU to pay 2.8 million in taxes based on your salary???

Even though he paid a lower "percentage" then we think he should, that's still a lot dollars going into the treasury for the government to spend...

How many average 50K a year people paying taxes does it take to equal the same 2.8 million to the treasury??

You just proved that you are hands down the biggest idiot posting on Pat.net. You don't have a clue. It is very sad that you are so dumb that you don't understand why percentages are used for comparisons. Go back to school and take some basic math classes you moron.

CIRCA 1985-2006
"I'm paid a great deal of money for my innovative, think outside the box competitive mindset. My proprietary financial instruments are a more efficient and stable way of financing mortgages,and creates wealth in a win-win for everybody, thanks to my superior intelligence and independent mind."

2007-2009
"It's not my fault --- EVERYBODY ELSE WAS DOING IT!!!! Leave my bonusaloooooonnne!"

WTF or ROTFL?

yup1 says

why percentages are used for comparisons.

Which is why the only vehicle to fairness is to ensure that part timers making minimum wage are also taxed at 39%. Only when they have skin in the game, something at stake will they truly learn that shit ain't free....

I'll gladly swap w-2s and tax bills with anyone upset about the fairness in the 39.6% bracket.

All I ask in return is that you notify your HR of a change in your direct deposit routing and account numbers. Send me a PM and I will give you the information you need.