patrick.net

The emotion you are showing towards a few lazy bikers who seem to show poor judgement is influencing your opinion of the group at large. It's a dangerous position to be in.

First, I have to defend motorcycle riders, as I have for years, especially with the fact that drivers in California can't stand the fact that motorcyclists can split lanes and escape traffic while they have to wait their turn.

Don't you think this statement you made earlier shows emotion towards a few car drivers and is influencing YOUR opinion of the group at large? Don't you think you're painting "drivers in California" with a pretty broad brush?

You have, what? one example of a person opening his door, where you're not even sure if it was deliberately to block you, and a couple people who you believe moved over too far in the lane? And your conclusion is that ALL California drivers are against lane splitting?

26

Homeboy 2013 Oct 9, 4:52pm

Lastly, it is highly beneficial for motorcyclists to be able to both split lanes and use the car pool.

More motorcyclists take cars off the road and reduce congestion.

Lane splitting and carpooling are benefits to get people on motorcycles, especially in fair weather year round states like CA, where traffic congestion and air quality is a problem.

Even on the most inefficient motorcycle, you are still getting 35-40mpg.

Less parking both street and lot is necessary the more motorcyclists there are.

Strawman argument. Nobody here said they are against motorcycles, or that we don't think they should be allowed to use the carpool lane. We only object to aggressive dangerous behavior by motorcycle riders.

27

elliemae 2013 Oct 9, 4:55pm

I get it, there are good motorcyclists & bad ones. There are those who blast past and make it look as though the other drivers on the road are standing still - many of them are bullet bikes. But there are also cars that do this. My experience has been that most bikers are normal people who happen to be riding bikes. They wave when you let them cut in front of you, they use turn or hand signals and seem to be basically good, normal people.

This news story isn't about your normal person. It's about a bunch of assholes who bullied other drivers in order to perform their "stunts," one of which was to slow down in front of the SUV so that the others could catch up and fuck with him. They beat the shit outta him - an undercover off duty police officer was one of the guys who terrorized the SUV driver. This incident was about some really mean people who chose to buy into the mob mentality and physically assaulted a man who was out for a drive with his family.

Claim you are frightened all you want. Claim there was damage done to your vehicle prior to the video we all saw. That's fine. File a police report, and file and comprehensive insurance claim! Asian drivers ...... I tell ya ....

If you were driving with your family in the car and a group of people on bikes was coming after you, I doubt you'd be sitting there allowing them to terrorize you. You could always file that thar police report from your hospital bed, but since many of the bikes had stolen plates (or fake ones, according to some report I read somewhere...) you would be on the hook to pay for the damage that they caused to you as well. They broke a window next to a baby in a car seat.

Imagine for one moment - if you're able - that you are out for a drive with your young family and a bunch of motorcyclists surround your car in a menacing manner, yelling at you. Of course you would try to get the fuck out of there any way you could. Even if you are Asian. (?!)

Nobody is going to shoot you dead. It's broad day light, and a tremendous amount of witnesses.

You have a car that can probably call the police itself, and I would bet in this day and age, the 2 year old probably had a cell phone.

Fearing for your life only would get worse, the more you damage other peoples motorcycles or people, so why would you make it worse. Where do you think you are escaping too that a motorcycle, check that, 100's of motorcycles can't catch you?

Unbelievable this guy hasn't been charged yet.

Really? No one would shoot you with all the witnesses?

A police officer was one of the riders, he finally came forward and admitted his part (although there seems to have been an attempt to twist his part in it as if he were undercover at the time - which he was not). Multiple other riders were there, and the cops don't know who they are . That's because they were driving very fast get away bikes and had successfully removed much of the identifying info on the bikes. They also hid their appearances under helmets and pretty leathers.

The guy was boxed in, he felt his only option was to flee. If he had stood there it's probable he would have been assaulted. He fled (and hit a guy on a bike who purposely blocked his way so that the others could terrorize him) and was caught. At least he did something.

You can say a lot of things about the way that bikers are painted in the media, on tv and in the movies. About the much undeserved reputation they've got. But these assholes deserve jail time and the driver deserves every penny of their assets for what they did to him.

And that baby's memory will always include daddy getting the shit beat out of him by multiple guys on bikes while others on bikes and bystanders did nothing to stop it.

28

Homeboy 2013 Oct 9, 5:07pm

The worst intentional thing I have had car drivers do to me is try and squeeze the space to prevent me from lane-splitting. It is pretty uncommon, but it is stupid, dangerous and the type of thing that bikers hit or kick off a rear-view mirror for.

Are you sure? Don't assume something was intentional when you don't know that for a fact. I drive a small car and I sometimes need to drive a bit towards one side of the lane or the other in order to see around the mammoth SUVs that are on the road. I once had a biker make a rude gesture at me because he ASSUMED I was deliberately blocking him, when in fact that wasn't the case at all. I was already towards the right side of the lane because I was trying to see ahead of the SUV that was blocking my view. I didn't move over to block anyone, and I was legally well within my lane. The biker came up later, and ASSUMED I was being hostile, even though my car was already in that position long before he ever got there. Obviously he was riding with a huge chip on his shoulder and assuming everyone on the road was out to get him. I even moved over to the left when I saw him coming, and he STILL was upset. Go figure....

Another thing I see all the time in California is bikers riding between the carpool lane and the next lane over, and giving a "peace" sign to each car that moves over for them, while giving the finger to each car that continues driving in a straight line, as if they believe the cars are required to move over for them. It's this kind of self-entitled attitude that I object to, and that I see far too often.

I hear bikers say cars "can't see them" all the time, yet I witness riding behavior all the time that puts them in that precise situation. Every day I see bikers position themselves directly behind and to the right of cars. Do you realize this is exactly where the car's blind spot is? I guess someone told them that this is safe, but it most certainly is not. It would make much more sense to be in the middle of the lane, yet bikers seem to always ride at the edge of the lane. I don't know why. It's not logical. Even in a car, I never insist on the right-of-way when I'm in someone's blind spot, because I have no way of knowing if they are even aware of me. If I were on a motorcycle, this would be doubly important.

29

lostand confused 2013 Oct 9, 9:34pm

http://www.youtube.com/embed/O1HaCGZYrMI

You can beleive it or not, but I have had someone both open a door on me
(whether it was a joke or not, who knows) and also several more times I have had
cars purposefully drive closer to the car next to them, crossing the white line,
to impede my progress

In traffic that can happen in blind spots. Drivers may be driving along and suddenly want to get into the next lane. I doubt in CA traffic, any car is trying to race a bike. You pass a thousand cars and one might just not have turned and looked and started to move into the next lane. In those traffic conditions, many attend meetings , eat, drink coffee while driving and not paying much attention.

On the other hand I have had bikers split lanes when traffic is going at 65-70 mph in the 101 in Los Angeles. Not many-but a few. In stop and go traffic, when we stop and then for a stretch go up , I see bikers all the times splitting lanes and it really makes me a little concerned. Especially in LA when the freeways split off into different freeways in both left and right. Everybody is trying to get into the correct lane to their freeway. On top of that you still have bikers splitting lanes and it is chaos.

Of course where I moved , very few bikers. They would probably freeze to death on their bikes in winter!!

30

Dan8267 2013 Oct 10, 1:14am

elliemae says

I get it, there are good motorcyclists & bad ones.

31

leo707 2013 Oct 10, 2:58am

Are you sure? Don't assume something was intentional when you don't know that for a fact.

You are correct in that one should not assume, but yeah when I am sure that a driver is trying to squeeze me out I am not operating on assumptions.

As mentioned by donjumpsuit looking into a car and watching for a drivers intentions is very important (and most certainly not an over exaggeration), especially when lane-splitting. For me watching for turn signals is tertiary to seeing where a drivers attention is at, and watching how cars are lining up with openings in the opposite lane that they can dart into.

When I see a driver watching me in their side view mirror, then they drift right on top of the the dashed lane divider (or within a foot of the other car) then yeah I have a pretty good idea of their intentions.

But sure, often people are just not paying much attention and will drift, closing the gap for me to travel through. Generally American drivers are pretty averse to driving too close to other cars and I don't need much space. It is pretty rare that in these situations I don't have room to get through. Sometimes my handlebars may need to pass over or under one of the cars side-view mirror, and on one occasion while I was squeezing between an SUV and sedan my hands passed under the SUV mirror as my other hand passed over the sedan mirror.

32

leo707 2013 Oct 10, 3:04am

It is also important to position oneself in traffic on a motorcycle. You want to have escape routes, so that if traffic stops unexpectedly or someone tries to change lanes and slams on the brakes, you have a safety zone to escape. This has to be maintained at all times.

So if that zone isn't established, sometimes I have to split lanes at 70mph, to regain that safety zone.

Yeah, absolutely. Having to lane-split at high-speed for safety reasons has been pretty rare for me though.

Having an escape route and staying out of a pack is good defensive driving in a car, but an order of magnitude more important on a bike.

33

leo707 2013 Oct 10, 3:22am

Another thing I see all the time in California is bikers riding between the carpool lane and the next lane over, and giving a "peace" sign to each car that moves over for them, while giving the finger to each car that continues driving in a straight line, as if they believe the cars are required to move over for them. It's this kind of self-entitled attitude that I object to, and that I see far too often.

This could probably be added to don's list of identifying an idiot motorcyclist. As a car driver I don't see this very often.

When riding a motorcycle, every time your hands leave your handlebars you reduce your reaction time. When lane-splitting being able to make that rapid swerve as a car darts in front of the bike has saved me from many collisions. If I was splitting my attention by spending my time flipping off drivers and having to return my hand to the handlebars to maneuver I don't know that my reactions would have been fast enough.

Yeah, I will wave or "peace sign" the occasional courteous driver.

34

leo707 2013 Oct 10, 3:40am

I hear bikers say cars "can't see them" all the time, yet I witness riding behavior all the time that puts them in that precise situation. Every day I see bikers position themselves directly behind and to the right of cars. Do you realize this is exactly where the car's blind spot is? I guess someone told them that this is safe, but it most certainly is not. It would make much more sense to be in the middle of the lane, yet bikers seem to always ride at the edge of the lane. I don't know why. It's not logical.

Safe lane positioning depends on the situation, but the center of the lane is often not where you want to be. A motorcycle driving in the middle of the lane means more road debris, oil, other fluids, or hidden road hazards -- think of how a car driver is supposed to drive in another cars tracks in the rain or snow, some similar reasons. Hitting even a small oil spill, especially on a turn, can mean putting your bike down.

Almost always the safest lane position is riding in the left side of the lane directly behind/in front of a car driver. People instinctively look at other people faces and putting yourself in the place where a driver expects to see another drivers face makes you more visible, and yes you are out of the major blind spots.

Depending on traffic conditions/hazards you may want to position yourself to the right side of the lane, but almost never right in the middle for the above mentioned reasons.

Almost assuredly some of the bikers you observe driving in the right-hand part of the lane have no good reason for being there, but many have probably gone through a risk-assessment and are driving there intentionally.

35

freak80 2013 Oct 10, 3:41am

A flamethrower at the exhaust pipes would be even more badass.

36 EBGuy 2013 Oct 10, 4:49am

DJS said: #2. Drivers who have never experienced what it is like to drive a motorcycle, under appreciate the moment to moment risk to the motorcyclist.
I appreciate everyone's contribution to the thread, especially from the motorcyclists. Why I kept reviving and commenting on blurtman's threads is I wanted to get to the emotional core of the issue. Both motorcyclists (and bicyclists) are extremely vulnerable when they ride. Riding as a group, they have much more power than when alone; the more angry individuals can use that power to intimidate those whom they normally feel threatened by (that is, car drivers). In the most extreme situations, you get a mob mentality that takes over, and people do things under an (imagined) cloud of anonymity (which is an no longer true these days, as cameras are everywhere). You can see this at Critical Mass rallies or stunt bike rides. Self policing is the most effective policy, but not easily done. Setting clear expectations would seem to be a start.
PS - Anyone have some general rules of thumb to determine if you are in the middle of a:
1. Sportbike rally
or
2. OMG (outlaw motorcycle gang)

37

Homeboy 2013 Oct 10, 4:52am

Make of it what you will, I am not driving over another human being in ANY circumstance unless it's a Zombie Apocalypse. Certainly not a lovely Fall Sunday Afternoon in broad daylight, regardless of the situation.

I imagine we all would like to think we'd never do that, but what you would actually do when confronted with imminent danger and needing to protect your family is another thing entirely. Easy for you to judge people's actions when you weren't there being attacked like they were.

#2. Drivers who have never experienced what it is like to drive a motorcycle, under appreciate the moment to moment risk to the motorcyclist. If they did, they would most likely be more tolerant, even dismissive of the more extreme examples of bad behavior.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. We all know that motorcycles are dangerous; that's why we choose not to ride them. If you want to assume that risk, that is on you. I should not be required to be "dismissive" of bad behavior because YOU chose to ride a motorcycle.

Then, inevitably this happens every time. The car in front of me get's nervous for some reason (the reasons everyone discussed above) and starts to pull to the left onto the shoulder, because for some reason he is expecting me, on the motorcycle to split lanes at 72 mph. Yes, because it's a behavior he has seen before.

You can blame your fellow bikers for that. I already recounted the story of riders who act as though drivers are doing them a disservice if they don't pull over onto the shoulder to let them pass. Other bikers are mad if we DON'T pull over, and you are mad if we DO pull over. Kinda makes me think you guys are just always mad about something.

Have you ever considered that leaving only 2 car lengths following distance at 70 mph is dangerous? 7 lengths is recommended. What you are doing is tailgating. No wonder drivers get nervous around you.

It is also important to position oneself in traffic on a motorcycle. You want to have escape routes, so that if traffic stops unexpectedly or someone tries to change lanes and slams on the brakes, you have a safety zone to escape. This has to be maintained at all times.

I'm detecting a victim mentality on your part, and perhaps this is what leads bikers to engage in aggressive behavior. I often sense that bikers have gone into "Rambo" mode, where they feel it's "us against them", and are chomping at the bit to get into some sort of altercation with a driver. Perhaps if bikers could lose the martyr mentality, we would have less of this kind of behavior. It would be tough, though, because you guys reinforce these beliefs in each other through clubs, internet forums, etc.

So if that zone isn't established, sometimes I have to split lanes at 70mph, to regain that safety zone.

I bet it is very rarely necessary to split lanes at 70mph for "safety". In most cases, slowing down can accomplish the same thing without adding additional danger. I think you just don't WANT to slow down. When bikers start saying they HAVE to split lanes at 70mph is when my bullshit meter starts to peg.

38

Homeboy 2013 Oct 10, 4:59am

Almost assuredly some of the bikers you observe driving in the right-hand part of the lane have no good reason for being there, but many have probably gone through a risk-assessment and are driving there intentionally.

I think their risk assessment is flawed. I also question your belief that being where a "driver's face" would be makes any difference at all. Do you have any sort of objective evidence to indicate this is the case? If it were me, I would make staying out of blind spots my top priority, over any questionable psychological theories about drivers. I don't make this comment lightly, as it is a common experience for drivers to suddenly see motorcycles appear out of blind spots. Now, I am very diligent about checking my blind spots before changing lanes, but I can't say that everyone else is as good at it as I am.

39

Homeboy 2013 Oct 10, 5:01am

This could probably be added to don's list of identifying an idiot motorcyclist. As a car driver I don't see this very often.

Hmmm...where do you live? I see it a lot in Southern CA.

40

Homeboy 2013 Oct 10, 5:07am

Lastly Homeboy,

I can tell what the driver is doing, if it's intentional or not.

I can see into the car, because I am high above it.

I can see in the rear view mirror.

I can see in the side view mirror.

I can tell if that person is having a bad day.

Actually my survival depends on knowing what every driver is doing, and what thier distraction or frustration level is.

You are correct in that one should not assume, but yeah when I am sure that a driver is trying to squeeze me out I am not operating on assumptions.

As mentioned by donjumpsuit looking into a car and watching for a drivers intentions is very important (and most certainly not an over exaggeration), especially when lane-splitting. For me watching for turn signals is tertiary to seeing where a drivers attention is at, and watching how cars are lining up with openings in the opposite lane that they can dart into.

I'm noticing a lot of preconceptions you already seem to have before you even go out on the road. Believing that you know the mind of every driver can be dangerous, as in the example I posted of the biker who thought I was trying to block him when that was not my intention at all. I think there's a very real danger that this victim or survivor mentality can lead to hostility and aggression on the road, and I've seen it a lot. Due to the inherent danger of riding a motorcycle in traffic, it takes a strong-willed individual to avoid succumbing to this mentality, and I applaud those who are able to do so.

41

leo707 2013 Oct 10, 6:19am

leo707 says

This could probably be added to don's list of identifying an idiot motorcyclist. As a car driver I don't see this very often.

Hmmm...where do you live? I see it a lot in Southern CA.

San Francisco Bay Area.

42

leo707 2013 Oct 10, 6:26am

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Comptroller says

Believing that you know the mind of every driver can be dangerous,

Mmmmm...I don't think anyone was making that claim, but when a driver looks directly at me then positions their car over the lane divider within a foot of the car in the next lane and they display not intention to change lanes I think I can be pretty sure of their intentions.

43 🎂

RWSGFY 2013 Oct 10, 6:37am

You know what would exude the Ultrabadness, a bike with a Gatling gun mounted on the handlebars.

Or you can go old school:

44

leo707 2013 Oct 10, 6:54am

I think their risk assessment is flawed.

Believe it or not, given other hazards on the road (some you as a car drive might not even be aware of), sometimes being in your blind-spot may be keeping a rider out of more dangerous lane placement.

If you are interested here is some reading on motorcycle lane positioning, and why it is dynamic with no universally best position.

http://www.mctourguide.com/lane-positioning/
"All things being equal, lane position 1[far left] would be the default lane position on a two lane road...
...The thing to remember is that you need to be thinking about your situation at all times and whatever lane position you are in, consider the weaker and stronger points relative to your situation and ride accordingly."

http://www.examiner.com/article/motorcycle-101-lane-positioning
"As a rider, your lane position should be fluid and change with the circumstances of the moment. There are many reasons to change your lane positioning, but some of the most common reasons are visibility, maneuverability, lane protection and avoiding hazards."

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl655/mcycle_htm/abilities.htm
"In general, there is no â€œbest lane positionâ€ for riders in which to be seen and to maintain a space cushion around the motorcycle. Position yourself in the lane that allows the most visibility and space around you. Change your lane position as traffic situations change. Ride in paths 2 or 3 if vehicles and other potential problems are on your left side. If vehicles are on both sides of you, the center of the lane (path 2) is usually the best option."

45

Vicente 2013 Oct 10, 7:31am

Straw Man says

How would that do against

46

Homeboy 2013 Oct 10, 8:58am

And you are 100% correct in saying that I am having a victims mentality when driving a motorcycle as 'everyone's out to get me'. I call it defensive driving (which at times is offensive in a defensive sense). It keeps me alive, and I am better for it.

Defensive driving is not the same as having a chip on your shoulder.

Motorcycles aren't that dangerous. If I drive a motorcycle with nobody on the road, it is quite safe. It is other vehicles that make it dangerous.

That's precisely what I said. Again, you are assuming arguments that I did not make.

I used to have road rage when I was young. Talk about victims mentality, or taking your perceived slights out on innocent drivers!

Now a days, I don't blame the driver for bad behavior. In a sense, I don't think a driver that does something STUPID, did it on purpose. When you take intent out of the picture, it actually helps your attitude.

I'm glad you got over your road rage. I'm just saying I frequently witness bikers who have not gotten over it. Obviously not all of them, but enough that it is noticeable to me.

Also, in both a car and a motorcycle I COMPLETELY DISMISS slowing down as an alternative to avoiding bad driving.

A VERY dangerous attitude. You would do well to rid yourself of this idea. It is NOT defensive driving. Sometimes being alive is more important than being right. If you're on a bike, you're going to be the one who gets hurt, whether you were "right" or not.

Obviously we aren't going to agree on this stuff. I sense that a lot of bikers have a certain arrogance about them and feel that they are superior to people who drive cars. And it's next to impossible to convince people like this that they are ever wrong about anything.

47

Y 2013 Oct 10, 9:04am

If streets were made for motorcycles, they would be 1/4 the width.
Streets are made for cars.
In all accidents between cars and motorcycles, the motorcycle is to be considered "at fault" by default, as they are on streets not designed for them.
Case Closed.

48

Homeboy 2013 Oct 10, 9:10am

Bad driving is not staying right for faster traffic.

Bad driving is maintaining a slow speed for the sake of it.

Bad driving is slowing to a stop when it's not safe to change a lane.

Bad driving is blowing up to your desired exit in the carpool lane, and then demanding everyone part the red sea to allow you to exit across 4 lanes.

In many cases slowing down is NOT the best scenario in this situation.

I agree, but none of those are examples of defensive driving. In those cases, slowing down is actually a form of aggression, just as it was in the case of the biker in the video who "brake checked" the SUV.

I'll give you an example: You're driving in the right hand lane on the freeway, and a truck is entering from an onramp in front of you. The truck is not going as fast as you are. Do you:

A. Either slow down or change lanes to allow the truck to safely merge onto the freeway?

B. Speed up in an attempt to force the truck to slow down and/or move over to the shoulder because you don't want a slower vehicle in front of you?

A is defensive driving. B is dangerous aggression. Even though you technically have the right of way, you're going to lose in a collision with a truck.

49

Homeboy 2013 Oct 10, 9:12am

SoftShell says

If streets were made for motorcycles, they would be 1/4 the width.

Streets are made for cars.

In all accidents between cars and motorcycles, the motorcycle is to be considered "at fault" by default, as they are on streets not designed for them.

Case Closed.

I'm not with him.

50

leo707 2013 Oct 10, 9:31am

donjumpsuit says

Motorcycles aren't that dangerous. If I drive a motorcycle with nobody on the road, it is quite safe. It is other vehicles that make it dangerous.

That's precisely what I said. Again, you are assuming arguments that I did not make.

I would still say even alone on the road motorcycles are pretty dangerous -- particularly with new riders.

If I am remembering correctly somewhere over 1/3, but under 1/2 of motorcycle accidents do not involve another vehicle. I don't have time now to look up the data, but here is a link to the -- might be allowing searches during the shutdown -- .gov site.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/

That said I think that the statistics are pretty skewed by the inexperienced, idiots, and stuntz riders (same as idiots?). One can ride for decades, or a lifetime, and never get into an accident.

51

freak80 2013 Oct 10, 9:33am

I don't even like driving my Honda Civic on deer infested roadways, let alone a motorcycle. Yikes.

52

leo707 2013 Oct 10, 9:40am

freak80 says

I don't even like driving my Honda Civic on deer infested roadways, let alone a motorcycle. Yikes.

Yeah, that is one disadvantage of a motorcycle, not much cargo room. No where to put all that free venison ;)

53

leo707 2013 Oct 10, 10:40am

egads101 says

I'd bet the accident rates of 40+ year old experienced motorcyclists is vastly lower.

Yeah, vastly lower, but key word is experienced. These days there are plenty of 40+ people whose midlife crisis vehicle is a motorcycle. They might not do all the stupid stuff that a 20 year-old does on a bike, but they don't have the reflexes to get them out of the inevitable beginner mistakes.

egads101 says

possibly drinking.

Drinking and driving a car is bad enough, but it is a horrible idea on a motorcycle.

54

Homeboy 2013 Oct 10, 6:49pm

Say no to crack.

55 Moderate Infidel 2013 Oct 11, 12:32am

Every wanna be tough guy biker with a loud Harley should die. Self centered dipshits.

56

elliemae 2013 Oct 11, 1:01am