patrick.net

Homeboy says

I hear bikers say cars "can't see them" all the time, yet I witness riding behavior all the time that puts them in that precise situation. Every day I see bikers position themselves directly behind and to the right of cars. Do you realize this is exactly where the car's blind spot is? I guess someone told them that this is safe, but it most certainly is not. It would make much more sense to be in the middle of the lane, yet bikers seem to always ride at the edge of the lane. I don't know why. It's not logical.

Safe lane positioning depends on the situation, but the center of the lane is often not where you want to be. A motorcycle driving in the middle of the lane means more road debris, oil, other fluids, or hidden road hazards -- think of how a car driver is supposed to drive in another cars tracks in the rain or snow, some similar reasons. Hitting even a small oil spill, especially on a turn, can mean putting your bike down.

Almost always the safest lane position is riding in the left side of the lane directly behind/in front of a car driver. People instinctively look at other people faces and putting yourself in the place where a driver expects to see another drivers face makes you more visible, and yes you are out of the major blind spots.

Depending on traffic conditions/hazards you may want to position yourself to the right side of the lane, but almost never right in the middle for the above mentioned reasons.

Almost assuredly some of the bikers you observe driving in the right-hand part of the lane have no good reason for being there, but many have probably gone through a risk-assessment and are driving there intentionally.

A flamethrower at the exhaust pipes would be even more badass.

DJS said: #2. Drivers who have never experienced what it is like to drive a motorcycle, under appreciate the moment to moment risk to the motorcyclist.
I appreciate everyone's contribution to the thread, especially from the motorcyclists. Why I kept reviving and commenting on blurtman's threads is I wanted to get to the emotional core of the issue. Both motorcyclists (and bicyclists) are extremely vulnerable when they ride. Riding as a group, they have much more power than when alone; the more angry individuals can use that power to intimidate those whom they normally feel threatened by (that is, car drivers). In the most extreme situations, you get a mob mentality that takes over, and people do things under an (imagined) cloud of anonymity (which is an no longer true these days, as cameras are everywhere). You can see this at Critical Mass rallies or stunt bike rides. Self policing is the most effective policy, but not easily done. Setting clear expectations would seem to be a start.
PS - Anyone have some general rules of thumb to determine if you are in the middle of a:
1. Sportbike rally
or
2. OMG (outlaw motorcycle gang)

donjumpsuit says

Make of it what you will, I am not driving over another human being in ANY circumstance unless it's a Zombie Apocalypse. Certainly not a lovely Fall Sunday Afternoon in broad daylight, regardless of the situation.

I imagine we all would like to think we'd never do that, but what you would actually do when confronted with imminent danger and needing to protect your family is another thing entirely. Easy for you to judge people's actions when you weren't there being attacked like they were.

donjumpsuit says

#2. Drivers who have never experienced what it is like to drive a motorcycle, under appreciate the moment to moment risk to the motorcyclist. If they did, they would most likely be more tolerant, even dismissive of the more extreme examples of bad behavior.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. We all know that motorcycles are dangerous; that's why we choose not to ride them. If you want to assume that risk, that is on you. I should not be required to be "dismissive" of bad behavior because YOU chose to ride a motorcycle.

donjumpsuit says

Then, inevitably this happens every time. The car in front of me get's nervous for some reason (the reasons everyone discussed above) and starts to pull to the left onto the shoulder, because for some reason he is expecting me, on the motorcycle to split lanes at 72 mph. Yes, because it's a behavior he has seen before.

You can blame your fellow bikers for that. I already recounted the story of riders who act as though drivers are doing them a disservice if they don't pull over onto the shoulder to let them pass. Other bikers are mad if we DON'T pull over, and you are mad if we DO pull over. Kinda makes me think you guys are just always mad about something.

Have you ever considered that leaving only 2 car lengths following distance at 70 mph is dangerous? 7 lengths is recommended. What you are doing is tailgating. No wonder drivers get nervous around you.

donjumpsuit says

It is also important to position oneself in traffic on a motorcycle. You want to have escape routes, so that if traffic stops unexpectedly or someone tries to change lanes and slams on the brakes, you have a safety zone to escape. This has to be maintained at all times.

I'm detecting a victim mentality on your part, and perhaps this is what leads bikers to engage in aggressive behavior. I often sense that bikers have gone into "Rambo" mode, where they feel it's "us against them", and are chomping at the bit to get into some sort of altercation with a driver. Perhaps if bikers could lose the martyr mentality, we would have less of this kind of behavior. It would be tough, though, because you guys reinforce these beliefs in each other through clubs, internet forums, etc.

donjumpsuit says

So if that zone isn't established, sometimes I have to split lanes at 70mph, to regain that safety zone.

I bet it is very rarely necessary to split lanes at 70mph for "safety". In most cases, slowing down can accomplish the same thing without adding additional danger. I think you just don't WANT to slow down. When bikers start saying they HAVE to split lanes at 70mph is when my bullshit meter starts to peg.

leo707 says

Almost assuredly some of the bikers you observe driving in the right-hand part of the lane have no good reason for being there, but many have probably gone through a risk-assessment and are driving there intentionally.

I think their risk assessment is flawed. I also question your belief that being where a "driver's face" would be makes any difference at all. Do you have any sort of objective evidence to indicate this is the case? If it were me, I would make staying out of blind spots my top priority, over any questionable psychological theories about drivers. I don't make this comment lightly, as it is a common experience for drivers to suddenly see motorcycles appear out of blind spots. Now, I am very diligent about checking my blind spots before changing lanes, but I can't say that everyone else is as good at it as I am.

leo707 says

This could probably be added to don's list of identifying an idiot motorcyclist. As a car driver I don't see this very often.

Hmmm...where do you live? I see it a lot in Southern CA.

donjumpsuit says

Lastly Homeboy,

I can tell what the driver is doing, if it's intentional or not.

I can see into the car, because I am high above it.

I can see in the rear view mirror.

I can see in the side view mirror.

I can tell if that person is having a bad day.

Actually my survival depends on knowing what every driver is doing, and what thier distraction or frustration level is.

leo707 says

You are correct in that one should not assume, but yeah when I am sure that a driver is trying to squeeze me out I am not operating on assumptions.

As mentioned by donjumpsuit looking into a car and watching for a drivers intentions is very important (and most certainly not an over exaggeration), especially when lane-splitting. For me watching for turn signals is tertiary to seeing where a drivers attention is at, and watching how cars are lining up with openings in the opposite lane that they can dart into.

I'm noticing a lot of preconceptions you already seem to have before you even go out on the road. Believing that you know the mind of every driver can be dangerous, as in the example I posted of the biker who thought I was trying to block him when that was not my intention at all. I think there's a very real danger that this victim or survivor mentality can lead to hostility and aggression on the road, and I've seen it a lot. Due to the inherent danger of riding a motorcycle in traffic, it takes a strong-willed individual to avoid succumbing to this mentality, and I applaud those who are able to do so.

Homeboy says

leo707 says

This could probably be added to don's list of identifying an idiot motorcyclist. As a car driver I don't see this very often.

Hmmm...where do you live? I see it a lot in Southern CA.

San Francisco Bay Area.

Homeboy says

Believing that you know the mind of every driver can be dangerous,

Mmmmm...I don't think anyone was making that claim, but when a driver looks directly at me then positions their car over the lane divider within a foot of the car in the next lane and they display not intention to change lanes I think I can be pretty sure of their intentions.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Comptroller says

You know what would exude the Ultrabadness, a bike with a Gatling gun mounted on the handlebars.

Or you can go old school:

Homeboy says

I think their risk assessment is flawed.

Believe it or not, given other hazards on the road (some you as a car drive might not even be aware of), sometimes being in your blind-spot may be keeping a rider out of more dangerous lane placement.

If you are interested here is some reading on motorcycle lane positioning, and why it is dynamic with no universally best position.

http://www.mctourguide.com/lane-positioning/
"All things being equal, lane position 1[far left] would be the default lane position on a two lane road...
...The thing to remember is that you need to be thinking about your situation at all times and whatever lane position you are in, consider the weaker and stronger points relative to your situation and ride accordingly."

http://www.examiner.com/article/motorcycle-101-lane-positioning
"As a rider, your lane position should be fluid and change with the circumstances of the moment. There are many reasons to change your lane positioning, but some of the most common reasons are visibility, maneuverability, lane protection and avoiding hazards."

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl655/mcycle_htm/abilities.htm
"In general, there is no “best lane position” for riders in which to be seen and to maintain a space cushion around the motorcycle. Position yourself in the lane that allows the most visibility and space around you. Change your lane position as traffic situations change. Ride in paths 2 or 3 if vehicles and other potential problems are on your left side. If vehicles are on both sides of you, the center of the lane (path 2) is usually the best option."

Straw Man says

How would that do against

donjumpsuit says

And you are 100% correct in saying that I am having a victims mentality when driving a motorcycle as 'everyone's out to get me'. I call it defensive driving (which at times is offensive in a defensive sense). It keeps me alive, and I am better for it.

Defensive driving is not the same as having a chip on your shoulder.

donjumpsuit says

Motorcycles aren't that dangerous. If I drive a motorcycle with nobody on the road, it is quite safe. It is other vehicles that make it dangerous.

That's precisely what I said. Again, you are assuming arguments that I did not make.

donjumpsuit says

I used to have road rage when I was young. Talk about victims mentality, or taking your perceived slights out on innocent drivers!

Now a days, I don't blame the driver for bad behavior. In a sense, I don't think a driver that does something STUPID, did it on purpose. When you take intent out of the picture, it actually helps your attitude.

I'm glad you got over your road rage. I'm just saying I frequently witness bikers who have not gotten over it. Obviously not all of them, but enough that it is noticeable to me.

donjumpsuit says

Also, in both a car and a motorcycle I COMPLETELY DISMISS slowing down as an alternative to avoiding bad driving.

A VERY dangerous attitude. You would do well to rid yourself of this idea. It is NOT defensive driving. Sometimes being alive is more important than being right. If you're on a bike, you're going to be the one who gets hurt, whether you were "right" or not.

Obviously we aren't going to agree on this stuff. I sense that a lot of bikers have a certain arrogance about them and feel that they are superior to people who drive cars. And it's next to impossible to convince people like this that they are ever wrong about anything.

If streets were made for motorcycles, they would be 1/4 the width.
Streets are made for cars.
In all accidents between cars and motorcycles, the motorcycle is to be considered "at fault" by default, as they are on streets not designed for them.
Case Closed.

donjumpsuit says

Bad driving is not staying right for faster traffic.

Bad driving is maintaining a slow speed for the sake of it.

Bad driving is slowing to a stop when it's not safe to change a lane.

Bad driving is blowing up to your desired exit in the carpool lane, and then demanding everyone part the red sea to allow you to exit across 4 lanes.

In many cases slowing down is NOT the best scenario in this situation.

I agree, but none of those are examples of defensive driving. In those cases, slowing down is actually a form of aggression, just as it was in the case of the biker in the video who "brake checked" the SUV.

I'll give you an example: You're driving in the right hand lane on the freeway, and a truck is entering from an onramp in front of you. The truck is not going as fast as you are. Do you:

A. Either slow down or change lanes to allow the truck to safely merge onto the freeway?

B. Speed up in an attempt to force the truck to slow down and/or move over to the shoulder because you don't want a slower vehicle in front of you?

A is defensive driving. B is dangerous aggression. Even though you technically have the right of way, you're going to lose in a collision with a truck.

SoftShell says

If streets were made for motorcycles, they would be 1/4 the width.

Streets are made for cars.

In all accidents between cars and motorcycles, the motorcycle is to be considered "at fault" by default, as they are on streets not designed for them.

Case Closed.

I'm not with him.

Homeboy says

donjumpsuit says

Motorcycles aren't that dangerous. If I drive a motorcycle with nobody on the road, it is quite safe. It is other vehicles that make it dangerous.

That's precisely what I said. Again, you are assuming arguments that I did not make.

I would still say even alone on the road motorcycles are pretty dangerous -- particularly with new riders.

If I am remembering correctly somewhere over 1/3, but under 1/2 of motorcycle accidents do not involve another vehicle. I don't have time now to look up the data, but here is a link to the -- might be allowing searches during the shutdown -- .gov site.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/

That said I think that the statistics are pretty skewed by the inexperienced, idiots, and stuntz riders (same as idiots?). One can ride for decades, or a lifetime, and never get into an accident.

I don't even like driving my Honda Civic on deer infested roadways, let alone a motorcycle. Yikes.

freak80 says

I don't even like driving my Honda Civic on deer infested roadways, let alone a motorcycle. Yikes.

Yeah, that is one disadvantage of a motorcycle, not much cargo room. No where to put all that free venison ;)

egads101 says

I'd bet the accident rates of 40+ year old experienced motorcyclists is vastly lower.

Yeah, vastly lower, but key word is experienced. These days there are plenty of 40+ people whose midlife crisis vehicle is a motorcycle. They might not do all the stupid stuff that a 20 year-old does on a bike, but they don't have the reflexes to get them out of the inevitable beginner mistakes.

egads101 says

possibly drinking.

Drinking and driving a car is bad enough, but it is a horrible idea on a motorcycle.

Say no to crack.

Every wanna be tough guy biker with a loud Harley should die. Self centered dipshits.

donjumpsuit says

The only other way I can describe it is a car driver is looking out a window at the world, the motorcyclist is outside in the world. We have to run by a whole different set of expectations and outcomes.

The world is moving "slowly" and as I drive in my "cage" I see it as if I were standing on it. Not getting whipped by sand & wind and shit that's in the roadway. I'll take my cage, which provides some protection from the elements as well as it makes it more comfortable to see the world around me.