patrick.net

The Pope basically summed up why trickledown economics don't work: It all depends on those with the money to use it in a way that was guesstimated as a result of having their taxes cut or other favors thrown their way- hence counting on " the goodness of humans" as he put it.

If you took the wealth of the top 85 people and gave it to the bottom half, they'd each get $500. Sure, they might have the time of their life for a few weeks, but after that, not much to show.

The problem is still lack of total wealth, not that some small few have managed to acquire enough of it to live a good life. Blaming The Rich is easy because it fools us into thinking that redistribution will make everything better. It won't.

If we want a planet with abundance, we have to learn to control our population size, our pollution, and exchange our bad technologies for good ones like hydrogen, so that there is more for everyone.

I think the Wealth of the top 85 people is $110 Trillion. Let's let them keep about $10 trillion amongst themselves, so we'll just take $100T and distribute it.

It amounts to $14,285 and change per person. Since about half the world lives on less than $2.50/day, or less than a thousand dollars a year, this would be an exponential improvement in their lives. For people in developed countries, it's a downpayment on a house, paying off a student loan, and/or a Nitro-burnin' fuel injection of new consumer spending that will rock the economy sky high.

If you only gave it to the poorest 50%, it would be almost $30k a piece - almost a year's US median income. A game changer.

The top 85 will still have more than $100M a piece and be able to:

Build a concrete bunker with 10 subfloors, fully stocked 300 square foot Meat Locker, and a private army in case of Cannibal Anarchy.
Buy a Sunreef 90 Catamaran
Go high-stakes gambling in Monaco
Cruising the Caribbean or Med for the rest of their lives staying in 5-star hotels with a full time paid crew.
Pay cash for a Harvard Education
Engage a luxury 5-star Michellin rated French Chef to serve them gold-flaked Chocolate Mousse for the rest of their lives
Own countless luxury properties all over the world
Set up their idiot family members as titular big salary-drawing Non-Profit Executives
Have plenty of money leftover to invest, etc. etc.

John Bailo says

The problem is still lack of total wealth, not that some small few have managed to acquire enough of it to live a good life. Blaming The Rich is easy because it fools us into thinking that redistribution will make everything better. It won't.

Very Good!

John Bailo says

We have to learn to control our population size, our pollution, and exchange our bad technologies for good ones like hydrogen, so that there is more for everyone.

That would require a propaganda campaign that respected their audience not treat them like they are stupid, or they need people to think for them. One that also didn't so transparently exhibit, cronyism, favoritism, and no questions asked bankruptcies.

Monkeying with birth rates is a delicate balance, either too low or too high of birthrates can be as equally devastating.

John Bailo says

The problem is still lack of total wealth, not that some small few have
managed to acquire enough of it to live a good life. Blaming The Rich is easy
because it fools us into thinking that redistribution will make everything
better. It won't.

That is 100% false. The total wealth of the US has continued to grow over the last 30 years. There is PLENTY of wealth out there, it's just distributed poorly.

Seriously--why do you continue to say that people are "blaming" the rich. Who is blaming them??

CaptainShuddup says

Very Good!

Except it's bullshit.

thunderlips11 says

85 people is $110 Trillion

Do you really think that, wow

It is a good thing your ilk does not control the purse strings, oh that's right that is why we have the trouble we have.

John Bailo says

If we want a planet with abundance, we have to learn to control our population size, our pollution, and exchange our bad technologies for good ones like hydrogen, so that there is more for everyone.

Agreed.

Two ways to do this, the fast, somewhat draconian way:
One kid per person. After that, you must get tubes tied to collect Social Security, Medicare, collect Unemployment, etc.

Less draconian way:
Tax break for the first kid. None for the second. Tax penalities with increasing minimum taxation (AMT) for the third and beyond. To get any social benefits, including welfare, you have to get your tubes tied to get food stamps and HUD aid if you have more than two children.

The Slow Way (aka Argentine/Italy Plan):
Make everybody middle class, so that they only have about 2 kids per couple. Since many people don't have kids, or people die before reproducing, we'll actually lower the world's population pretty quickly.

In all three cases, government would pay for the various operations. Laws would apply equally to men or women.

indigenous says

Do you really think that, wow

I only repeat what has been in the news lately:
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/85-of-the-world-s-richest-people-now-own-the-same-amount-of-wealth-as-3-5-billion-of-the-world-s-poorest-142701296.html

thunderlips11 says

I only repeat what has been in the news lately:

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/85-of-the-world-s-richest-people-now-own-the-same-amount-of-wealth-as-3-5-billion-of-the-world-s-poorest-142701296.html

That's the wealth of the top 1%, not the top 85 people, according to the article.

I don't understand why you guys are arguing over a nitpick like that, though. Whether you're talking about the top 1%, the top 5%, or the top 0.0001%, the point remains that the wealth is concentrated in too few hands.

John Bailo says

If you took the wealth of the top 85 people and gave it to the bottom half, they'd each get $500. Sure, they might have the time of their life for a few weeks, but after that, not much to show.

Huh? Then where would that $500 per person go? To the people, the businesses, the entities that EARN their business.

Why are we afraid to make the wealthy business tycoons work to keep, and compete for their lucre?

The point of the economy is for the money to flow. There is no growth without it, right?

Homeboy says

That's the wealth of the top 1%, not the top 85 people, according to the article.

Jesus, fuck me I'm bad at math. And reading comprehension.

Okay, I've just totally confused myself.

$110T divided by 7.5M people (1% of the worlds ~7.5B people) = over $14k

That's impossible. I can't believe that only 1 in 100 people averages only ~$14k in wealth. This includes children and old people, I guess, so maybe households?

In other words does anybody think there aren't 7.5M people in the USA alone, that don't have at least $14.5K? Cars, Homes, Jetskis, IRAs, Timeshares?

What's missing from this equation is corporate assets, which aren't counted under individual wealth, even though the individual has total control of it.

thunderlips11 says

$110T divided by 7.5M people (1% of the worlds ~7.5B people) = over $14k

thunderlips11 says

Jesus, fuck me I'm bad at math. And reading comprehension.

You are correct, you suck at math. You left off three zero's. $14,666,666

yup1 says

You are correct you suck at math. You left off three zero's. $14,666,666

thunderlips11 says

$110T divided by 7.5M people (1% of the worlds ~7.5B people) = over $14k

I think you used too many zeroes.

110,000,000,000 / 7,500,000 = $14,666

I did that three times to be absolutely sure I wasn't having MEGO syndrome.

thunderlips11 says

What did I just say?

You said you suck at math and are confused. I was trying to help you by fixing your math which should also fix your confusion.

thunderlips11 says

yup1 says

You are correct you suck at math. You left off three zero's. $14,666,666

thunderlips11 says

$110T divided by 7.5M people (1% of the worlds ~7.5B people) = over $14k

I think you used too many zeroes.

110,000,000,000 / 7,500,000 = $14,666

110,000,000,000,000. Dumbass.

Trillion, Billion, Million, Thousand, Hundred. You know 3rd grade math.

Okay, I just copied:
110,000,000,000
from Calc
I am dividing (copying again) by
7,500,000
and I get
14,666.666666667

thunderlips11 says

Okay, I just copied:
110,000,000,000
from Calc
I am dividing (copying again) by
7,500,000
and I get
14,666.666666667

STOP USING 110 BILLION!

I got it now, thanks YUP!

And yes, I did have a very hard time with math in school, and avoid it like the plague.

Homeboy says

thunderlips11 says

I only repeat what has been in the news lately:


http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/85-of-the-world-s-richest-people-now-own-the-same-amount-of-wealth-as-3-5-billion-of-the-world-s-poorest-142701296.html

That's the wealth of the top 1%, not the top 85 people, according to the article.

I don't understand why you guys are arguing over a nitpick like that, though. Whether you're talking about the top 1%, the top 5%, or the top 0.0001%, the point remains that the wealth is concentrated in too few hands.

It is not nitpicking to say that 85 people have 1.3 trillion dollars in personal assets. Bill Gates does not have 1/20 of that, give me a break.

You guys fail to realize is that:

#1 disparity does not matter i.e. the poor in the US are way better off than the middle class in most of the world.

#2 the disparity increases from government intervention. This has happened the most right now and in the early 30's both times was because of the FED intervention.

#3 In the profound words of Jody Chudder, paraphrasing, the scum that keep point out the straw man, keep you monkeys flinging your feces at each other over this stuff, Rs vs Ds 1% vs the rest of us, so you don't take the time to actually look.

I freely admit to making a complete ass of myself in this thread, having a bad case of MEGO syndrome today.

Jesus, you were dividing by trillions and billions in 3rd grade math? I think I was just memorizing multiplication tables back then, like 2x2=16.

thunderlips11 says

I got it now, thanks YUP!

Let me learn you something. There are a thousand thousand in a million, there are thousand million in a billion, there are a thousand billion in a trillion.

Now are fine POTUSs have created debt of 17 x 1000 x 1000 x 1000 x 1000

thunderlips11 says

I freely admit to making a complete ass of myself in this thread, having a bad case of MEGO syndrome today.

Jesus, you were dividing by trillions and billions in 3rd grade math? I think I was just memorizing multiplication tables back then, like 2x2=16.

Don't feel bad you went to public school

thunderlips11 says

Jesus, you were dividing by trillions and billions in 3rd grade math?

It might have been 4th grade. I am just anal about numbers. Numbers tell a story. You can't fake simple math.

indigenous says

#1 disparity does not matter i.e. the poor in the US are way better off than the middle class in most of the world.

You can keep saying this, but it's still wrong. Inequality is the #1 problem in the US today.

indigenous says

#2 the disparity increases from government intervention. This has happened the most right now and in the early 30's both times was because of the FED intervention.

Again--completely wrong. You are a poor student of history. Government inaction leads to disparity. Laissez Faire leads to inequality. Unrestrained capitalism naturally leads to inequality.

indigenous says

Let me learn you something. There are a thousand thousand in a million, there are thousand million in a billion, there are a thousand billion in a trillion.

Now are fine POTUSs have created debt of 17 x 1000 x 1000 x 1000 x 1000

Let me learn you the difference between our and are. One is a pronoun, and the other is a verb.

Homeboy says

the point remains that the wealth is concentrated in too few hands.

Do this as a mental experiment.

(1) Take everything the rich own -- however you define it -- and subtract it from the Earth.

(2) Now subtract the rich themselves as defined above.

(3) Now divide what's left equally among the remaining people. Call this World#1.

(4) Now put back everything that you subtracted, except for the rich people. Now take everything and again divide it equally and call this World#2.

How different would the life a person in World#1 be from World#2?

Again, the point being, with so many people, even great wealth would soon be exhausted. Therefore, it is creating a sustainable, clean, intelligent society that is of the utmost important.

The "super rich" are a giant clown show to act as a distraction. Anyone with brains can see the pickle in which we are in. It's up the the smart people do what has to be done.

John Bailo says

How different would the life a person in World#1 be from World#2?

VERY different. I don't think you comprehend the amount of wealth that the 1% actually has right now. If you did, you wouldn't ask that question.

tatupu70 says

ndigenous says

#1 disparity does not matter i.e. the poor in the US are way better off than the middle class in most of the world.

You can keep saying this, but it's still wrong. Inequality is the #1 problem in the US today.

I explain why your's is tautology.

tatupu70 says

indigenous says

#2 the disparity increases from government intervention. This has happened the most right now and in the early 30's both times was because of the FED intervention.

Again--completely wrong. You are a poor student of history. Government inaction leads to disparity. Laissez Faire leads to inequality. Unrestrained capitalism naturally leads to inequality.

Why because you say so? once again tautology

tatupu70 says

indigenous says

Let me learn you something. There are a thousand thousand in a million, there are thousand million in a billion, there are a thousand billion in a trillion.

Now are fine POTUSs have created debt of 17 x 1000 x 1000 x 1000 x 1000

Let me learn you the difference between our and are. One is a pronoun, and the other is a verb.

Yea sometimes I mix up your and you are as well getting old i guess. So fucking what?

indigenous says

I explain why your's is tautology

I'm waiting for the explanation.

indigenous says

Why because you say so? once again tautology

Nope--because history says so. Look at 1929. Look at the history of real wage gains and understand why gains were high in the 1945-1980ish time period, but have basically stopped since.

indigenous says

It is not nitpicking to say that 85 people have 1.3 trillion dollars in personal assets. Bill Gates does not have 1/20 of that, give me a break.

Yeah, it really is a nitpicky thing to have an extended argument about, because the top 1% DOES have $110 trillion, and that's too much money for only the top 1% to have. So what's your point here? You think it's reasonable for the top 1% to have $110 trillion?

indigenous says

#1 disparity does not matter i.e. the poor in the US are way better off than the middle class in most of the world.

The question should be whether the poor in the US are better off than other DEVELOPED countries, and they are not.

indigenous says

the disparity increases from government intervention. This has happened the most right now and in the early 30's both times was because of the FED intervention.

No shit, Sherlock. Why would you assume I "don't realize" that?

indigenous says

#3 In the profound words of Jody Chudder, paraphrasing, the scum that keep point out the straw man, keep you monkeys flinging your feces at each other over this stuff, Rs vs Ds 1% vs the rest of us, so you don't take the time to actually look.

Sorry, what are you trying to say? Sounds like gibberish.

tatupu70 says

indigenous says

I explain why your's is tautology

I'm waiting for the explanation.

Should read:
I explain why, your's is tautology

tatupu70 says

indigenous says

Why because you say so? once again tautology

Nope--because history says so. Look at 1929. Look at the history of real wage gains and understand why gains were high in the 1945-1980ish time period, but have basically stopped since.

I'm waiting for an explanation

indigenous says

I'm waiting for an explanation

I've explained it a million times. What question exactly do you have? So I make sure I give you the correct explanation.

Homeboy says

The question should be whether the poor in the US are better off than other DEVELOPED countries, and they are not.

Lets see the numbers

Homeboy says

indigenous says

#3 In the profound words of Jody Chudder, paraphrasing, the scum that keep point out the straw man, keep you monkeys flinging your feces at each other over this stuff, Rs vs Ds 1% vs the rest of us, so you don't take the time to actually look.

Sorry, what are you trying to say? Sounds like gibberish.

It means that there is so much noise that it distracts people from what is important

Nope--because history says so. Look at 1929. Look at the history of real wage gains and understand why gains were high in the 1945-1980ish time period, but have basically stopped since.

tatupu70 says

I've explained it a million times. What question exactly do you have? So I make sure I give you the correct explanation.

splain that

John Bailo says

Do this as a mental experiment.

(1) Take everything the rich own -- however you define it -- and subtract it from the Earth.

(2) Now subtract the rich themselves as defined above.

(3) Now divide what's left equally among the remaining people. Call this World#1.

(4) Now put back everything that you subtracted, except for the rich people. Now take everything and again divide it equally and call this World#2.

How different would the life a person in World#1 be from World#2?

The way you worded that seems needlessly confusing, but let's see if we can figure this out: World population is 7 billion. Total worldwide wealth is about $220 trillion. So that would be $31,000 for each man, woman, and child on the planet , if divided equally. The top 10% own 86% of the wealth, which is $189 trillion. So 700 million people control $189 trillion, which would average $270,000 each. Therefore, the bottom 90% owns 14% of the wealth, which is $30.8 trillion. This averages to $49 each.

If all the wealth in the world were divided equally, the bottom 90% would go from an average of $49 to an average of $31,000. That would be PROFOUNDLY life changing.

Sources: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-02/its-1-world-who-owns-what-223-trillion-global-wealth

http://links.org.au/node/3569

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

indigenous says

Homeboy says

The question should be whether the poor in the US are better off than other DEVELOPED countries, and they are not.

Lets see the numbers

Sure:

Earnings at the 10th percentile as a share of median worker earnings in selected OECD countries, late 2000s

http://www.epi.org/publication/ib339-us-poverty-higher-safety-net-weaker/

Looks like we're actually dead last.

http://depts.washington.edu/wcpc/povertyintheus

Homeboy says

Sure:

Earnings at the 10th percentile as a share of median worker earnings in selected OECD countries, late 2000s

A couple of things leap out at me one is that the statistics are based on household income which is known for misleading numbers. This is because as the divorce rate skyrocketed a couple of decades ago which distorts household income. My theory is that foreign countries were not hit as hard by the Gloria Steinem meme as the US

The second trick that these guys use is that government transfers are not counted as income in the lowest quin tile this includes things like section 8 housing, WIC, food stamps, welfare, healthcare etc. This skews the numbers. I think this gives Mexican immigrants a big advantage in the work place as they are subsidized by the government.

A third thing is that categories are not real flesh and blood people so changes in a category do not reflect real people. This is because people move out of categories very quickly they are Absolutely not static.

Graphs have many inputting factors which do not isolate the things they are purported to show. This is the reason that Austrians don't use them as much as Keynesian who want to solve everything with math. While ignoring logic.

indigenous says

A couple of things leap out at me one is that the statistics are based on household income which is known for misleading numbers. This is because as the divorce rate skyrocketed a couple of decades ago which distorts household income. My theory is that foreign countries were not hit as hard by the Gloria Steinem meme as the US

The second trick that these guys use is that government transfers are not counted as income in the lowest quin tile this includes things like section 8 housing, WIC, food stamps, welfare, healthcare etc. This skews the numbers. I think this gives Mexican immigrants a big advantage in the work place as they are subsidized by the government.

LOL - you are so full of shit. Sure, any data that proves you wrong is a "trick". Riiight... You lobbed a ball at me and I smashed it right back down your throat. Now you're hemming and hawing like a fiend. Just admit you lost the argument - everyone knows it.