patrick.net

smaulgld says

Dan8267 says

Not to mention hypocritical as the Boomers have had no problems generalizing about "Never trust anyone over 30. etc"

Individuals made up those slogans, not a generation

And multitudes of individual repeated them.

Not every Muslim in the Middle East hates America, but there are a lot chanting "Death to America". So it's not unreasonable to generalize that US-Middle-Eastern relations needs improvement.

For those of us under 40, the deck is stacked against us. There's still opportunity, but we have to be a little wierd in the way we live to take advantage of it.
What's "wierd?" Glad you asked. A recent poster asked if he should keep his $4500/month rent or buy a condo for 1.5 million. I just couldn't get past the first statement. Maybe his income is a bit more than mine, but I would never consider paying so much for rent of an apartment. The way to get ahead in this life is to save capital and then put it to work. The first step requires that you minimize your expenditures. Paying double or more for housing is just a waste IMHO, and keeps you from saving. Buying new cars does the same, with the price, payment, insurance, and high taxes. Having to buy everything new, instead of gently used is also not making good use of your income. Having to throw expensive parties and give elaborate gifts also sets you back.
Everything you spend money on, REGARDLESS of your income, sets you back in the game of capital acquisition.

I recently bought a house, whether or not that was a great decision, but the monthly financials made sense. But I couldn't have done this without having saved a large amount of cash using the same practices I've delineated here.
We drive ten and twelve year old cars that I maintain carefully. We have kids, but try not to spoil them, encouraging learning and artistic craftsmanship over consumerist values. It's not what you have that matters, it's what you can DO! After all, nearly all products decrease in value precipitously, rendering the money used for their purchase lost. Their value, then, lies in their usage between those points of purchase and disposal.

sbh says

I'll make a wild guess and posit that the Boomers who acted responsibly with debt and lifestyle during their time of prosperity did so because they took to heart the hard lessons of their parents' generation. My parents were born in the late 20s, with my father having been born in the year of the crash. If you revere your parents you tend to cherish the foundations of their wisdom and learned experience. Even though we don't want to be them, or live the life they lived in the world they lived in, in our own way and in our own time we recapitulate their strength and virtue as best we can. If we can pull that off we will be a burden to no one, and we will leave the remainder of our wealth to the good of the future.

To the few like you, my hat is off and I give you full credit for being a shinning exception.

Quigley says

Paying double or more for housing is just a waste IMHO, and keeps you from saving. Buying new cars does the same, with the price, payment, insurance, and high taxes. Having to buy everything new, instead of gently used is also not making good use of your income. Having to throw expensive parties and give elaborate gifts also sets you back.

Everything you spend money on, REGARDLESS of your income, sets you back in the game of capital acquisition.

I recently bought a house, whether or not that was a great decision, but the monthly financials made sense. But I couldn't have done this without having saved a large amount of cash using the same practices I've delineated here.

We drive ten and twelve year old cars that I maintain carefully. We have kids, but try not to spoil them, encouraging learning and artistic craftsmanship over consumerist values. It's not what you have that matters, it's what you can DO!

We are kindred spirits for sure. :-)

smaulgld says

It's not a recovery its a road block to first time home buyers

I think it is more than that.

It is very interesting to read the various view points and back and forth on this site.

To me, forgive me, I am not racist, but this is a good way to put it.

We have all become the 'Black People' of the 1960's.

The system is designed and laws are in place where the top .01%, the banks, the wealthy, the oligarch's can freely invest without risk, and if they fail, the debt becomes public debt. Too bad Beeoch is the prevailing attitude.

We are all being financially discriminated against.

Need an example? Please name one property auction site that actually wants to sell property to 'street people' with a loan?

"Investor financing available" is what you will find. They simply have no interest in dealing with any other type of customer.

Or, cash buyers can go to the court house steps.

Sure, we can pay the street price offered with a loan.

sbh says

Be careful voicing support of a liberal on patnet, it will result in numerous automatic insults and dislikes. As an admittedly redneck liberal I fail the purity test.

Did you see how it went the last time I agreed with you? You are right. I've been waiting for Strategist to write something like, "Boomers are cool, do you not like success" or something equally as WTF and off the point.

It's not that you are too liberal, it's that you are too logical for most on this site.

jazz music says

Extremely well paid right wing announcers are everywhere telling us to blame the poor in need, and the sick, the exact opposite of the truth. Anything that could slow wealth accumulation is probable terrorism. Announcers take the tone of some irritable authority figure or owner's voice. They use patriotic nostalgic images. People like to identify with that, that's the side that's winning, that angry voice sounds like the grown up in the room, the side that ought to win.

Join the police force, they still get a dignified retirement where they get to monopolize local legislation and politics.

Maybe this sounds like a crazy old man, but it sure feels like "repent, the end is near" might be a pretty good idea about now.

Apologies in advance for painting such a thoroughly horrible landscape. What ever you do, don't go kill yourself, okay? You can still snuggle a puppy or play music.

Jazz, you always make me smile. :-)
Great post.

jazz music says

Modern day California is losing it's status as the place everyone wants to be.

It continues to become more of a shithole in its own doing. Places like the Bay Area are so anti-development that cost of living is too high and it's super business-unfriendly, although somehow tech has managed to thrive nonetheless. The legislature keeps de-funding schools and universities, which won't help. California isn't spending enough money to maintain existing infrastructure, much less improve it for the future (although hopefully HSR goes through and counters that a bit). Prop 13 has taken away local control of local issues in favor of state control by an incompetent legislature. Public employee pensions are insane. Cost of living keeps getting higher, and taxes are already high excluding property tax, so people's standard of living keeps dropping. This is not the California that people remember.

Giving credit to my healthy MIL, who barely makes it to boomer status, being born in 1943, but makes it just the same. She agreed with every word and reposted on her Facebook with title " Shame on us," so clearly there are exceptions to the rule, plus boomers who care, as proven by my MIL, sbh and jazz.

It's good to feel some boomers truly care and see our plight for what it is. Honestly, it helps just to know some of the boomers are on our side and sympathize.

curious2 says

Boomers grew up with that being public policy, the 30-year federally guaranteed mortgage began after WWII, the same time the boomers were born, so it's their patriotic duty. As Lilly Allen would say, "I am a weapon of massive consumption, it's not my fault it's how I'm programmed to function." I also find myself losing respect for Paul Krugman, who keeps exhorting America to borrow and spend more money; he has no children, and he seems to be saying, "Après moi, le déluge."

Very true, and I love that song. I choreographed to it this year. I'm sure some parents will be shocked, but it's modern ballet, it's okay to shock a little. :-)

hrhjuliet says

The middle-class is dying, and this practice of exorbitant home prices is shoving the middle-class right out the door. The middle-class in America is going to die with the boomers if we don't make changes.

What changes do you propose?

hrhjuliet says

All I am asking is that people take responsibility and simply admit that the housing "recovery" is for the boomers, the mega rich, real estate agents and foriegners. Admit that's what you mean by "recovery" and admit we have it tough. Go ahead keep up your "grab all" living, I am not asking you give up your high standard of living in sacrifice for the next two or three undeserving generations, all I ask, with a heartfelt plea, is that you admit people under forty have it rough, give us some credit, and stop using the term recovery or stabilized.

Isn't that kinda pessimistic?

hrhjuliet says

id you see how it went the last time I agreed with you? You are right. I've been waiting for Strategist to write something like, "Boomers are cool, do you not like success" or something equally as WTF and off the point.

Oh gawd, I need another drink. You are just like my wife.

You did exactly what I said you would do? Why prove me right Strategist? My goodness you poor man, yes, get yourself a drink and your poor wife too.

Sounds like a touching Winston Churchill moment between Strategist and hrhjuliet.

"if you were my husband, I would poison your tea."

"if you were my wife, I would drink it."

Ceffer says

Sounds like a touching Winston Churchill moment between Strategist and hrhjuliet.

"if you were my husband, I would poison your tea."

"if you were my wife, I would drink it."

He he he.
I still love you, hrhjuliet.

Strategist says

Ceffer says

Sounds like a touching Winston Churchill moment between Strategist and hrhjuliet.

"if you were my husband, I would poison your tea."

"if you were my wife, I would drink it."

He he he.

I still love you, hrhjuliet.

Actually, I must concede that I would be very sad to not see your posts. You do make a solid point sometimes.

This is interesting...very much so.

I always felt a bit different, especially so from those just a few years after me.

I'm solidly GenX, my parents and almost all the older people in my family are Silent Generation. I can't think of any that qualify as Baby Boomers.

Growing up, my extended family was close. I knew what my grandparents and great aunts and uncles had been through during the great depression and WWII. I loved history so I listened to them. I also loved baseball and baseball history from a very young age and when I looked at a guy like Ted Williams career stats and saw two periods of several years where he didn't play...my curiousity was aroused even more.

In my studies and research had always hated the 60's and 70's. I couldn't figure out what the heck people were doing. The drug use was just nonsense IMO. What I did see is an older generation that had literally gone through hell. And wound up building a near nirvana. At least on the outside. And before anyone brings up race issues, outside the south and selected areas like east Texas and urban white areas on the "wrong side of the tracks", blacks were seeing unprecedented financial success...at least until the Great Society. I'm sure there was psychological trauma that boiled through at this time. But overall, we had one of the most prosperous forward thinking societies ever. A bit restrictive, but counterculture was doing a real good job addressing that.

But then the damn kids looked the gift horse in the mouth. Couldn't just take life on its own terms...work hard, enjoy your spare time, love and care about your family and your community. And out of all that crap...once the drugs and communes and screwing any willing cunt went away....it turns out that the Boomers were a bunch of greedy fucks who were so selfish that they couldn't even be bothered to properly raise their own kids.

Also FU to the Boomers for spawning horrible movies like Parenthood. Lets all work out our weirdness because I couldn't before I got married and have kids *sticks finger down throat".

Pick up the load GenXers and start having lots of kids. We need the taxes!

Blurtman says

Pick up the load GenXers and start having lots of kids. We need the taxes!

Having kids will only increase the consumption of tax revenues. For 22 years, the kids won't produce anything. And when they finally reach adulthood, they will still consume more than they produce because of the lack of jobs. Just look at the unemployment rate for Millennials.

How about we get the unemployment rate down to zero, and then you can bitch and moan about how we need more workers.

Just remember that every time the Boomers outsourced a job to Chindia, they also gave away the tax revenue that job produced. Same for H1B Visas. A job that would normally pay 100k+/yr and produce 30k/yr in taxes, now pays 40k/yr and produces 5k/yr in taxes due to lower tax rate, foreign tax deduction, etc.

Dan8267 says

Blurtman says

Pick up the load GenXers and start having lots of kids. We need the taxes!

Having kids will only increase the consumption of tax revenues. For 22 years, the kids won't produce anything. And when they finally reach adulthood, they will still consume more than they produce because of the lack of jobs. Just look at the unemployment rate for Millennials.

How about we get the unemployment rate down to zero, and then you can bitch and moan about how we need more workers.

Just remember that every time the Boomers outsourced a job to Chindia, they also gave away the tax revenue that job produced. Same for H1B Visas. A job that would normally pay 100k+/yr and produce 30k/yr in taxes, now pays 40k/yr and produces 5k/yr in taxes due to lower tax rate, foreign tax deduction, etc.

The stock market is booming. What you describe cannot be a problem.

Any posters above expressing remorse or guilt for acting in their own interest in their life, see a shrink ASAP.

If someone studied, worked, saved, borrowed, etc. he shouldn't feel guilty about it.

Most boomers I know were paid jack shit unless they became lawyers or doctors. This may explain why there are so many lawyers around, lots of guys got out of college with nothing to do.

The media was on about the "misery index" in the 70's, along with global cooling, Russia agression. Carter told us we were in a "malaise", etc. it's deja vu with Obama.

Our parents were thrifty but generally didn't know about mutual funds or investing. The houses our parents bought were the single payment they made out of income that wasn't consumed.

Many boomers are living with either their children or caring for an older parent, some cases both. In my and my friend's case, one of each applies.

A lot of boomers are paying for their own parents support simultaneously while supporting their children. That's a pretty common squeeze for them.

The Professor says

Sure we get options, but we never get to choose.

worse and worser

clambo says

Many boomers are living with either their children or caring for an older parent, some cases both.

And this is different that X/Y how?

Consider these track records of OURS:
http://patrick.net/?p=1230886
Consider the remedy: we need to remember these track records, AND we need to much more consistently keep our heads out in the light.

JH says

, but Reagan's policies are spewed daily from Fox News and everyone in Washington is too chicken shit to oppose them.

Than we need to stop being chicken poop and start acting like citizens of a great Republic. Fake it until we make it if we have to.

hrhjuliet says

Than we need to stop being chicken poop and start acting like citizens of a great Republic. Fake it until we make it if we have to

Unfortunately, I'm not sure what that looks like. Except the 99% march thing a year or so ago. But that just enraged Republicans more.

JH says

Unfortunately, I'm not sure what that looks like. Except the 99% march thing a year or so ago. But that just enraged Republicans more

It looks like a very organized and very solid boycott movement. Republicans can't touch that, Democrats can't touch that, police can't arrest you for it (yet) and free market advocates can't complain, Libertarians can't complain and neither can the Green party.
It's your freedom to choose.

Boycott the Made in China goods, or any goods made in a place that uses children or political prisoners. Boycott Monsanto, Phillip Morris, Walmart, Nestlé, Dow, Pfizer, Chevron, Coca Cola, etc. If they have a record that hits all three: human rights abuses, murder and pollution, then start with them.

Use less oil. Drive your car less.

Don't buy diamonds, or anything unethically mined.

Don't buy an overpriced home, and work with for sale by owner.

Use cash whenever you can.

Use open source

Buy less, buy necessities. If you have to buy, then buy fair trade.

Cut off the blood supply to the corporations you despise and the candidates they fund.

Or are you all too comfortable and chicken?

Really? Someone disliked the above? Why?

hrhjuliet says

Really? Someone disliked the above? Why?

Just did this today:
http://patrick.net/?p=1242076

I am generation X. Regarding prices at twice median income theory - there are some cities in bay area, where median income is around 95K such as fremont and dublin. So what you are proposing is that homes go for 190K. However, if you are in the market for a single family home rental, you are easily looking at 3K per month. So essentially, you want a steal - you want to buy a house for under 5.5 annual rents! You want a steal, morally that' no different than an "boomer" who wants to sell a house at 30 annual rents. Why not just do the fair thing and create a sale in the 15-20 annual rents range?

Fiurther, there's a "slight" logistical problem. At 2X income there would be a glut of qualified buyers competing for a very limited supply (if any since builders will not want to build and "boomers" will not want to sell). May I ask who determines who will get the house. Or are we gonna have a soviet style "propiska" where a government will assign you to a house and then you will be charged with a crime if you live elsewhere...

On a deeper level, I find some of the threads that have been blaming boomers by gen X and get Y to be somewhat misplaced. Gen X and Y were never deliberately oppressed by the power structure via broken treaties, land theft, bio deseases (native americanss), were not brought here and enslaved against their will (african americans). There populations have legitimate reasons to be angry. Boomers have never made a concerted organized effort to screw X and Y - heck most of the decisions that resulted in the screwing were purely incidental - most boomer "executives" had no foresight to look past next 2 fiscal quarters much less 20-50 years into the future.

Additionally, X and Y need to own up to some of the things that they have done. They didn't really fight demise of the unions. They wanted more "flexibility" in the work world which eventually manifested itself in lack of benefits and contract employment. These things sound much better on paper than in reality.

hrhjuliet says

Really? Someone disliked the above? Why?

Wasn't me, but your list is difficult for a middle class income with kids.

hrhjuliet says

Boycott the Made in China goods

Everything my kids own (and all my cheap clothes, too).

hrhjuliet says

Walmart

Just bought a nice sleeping bag from them for a summer camping trip. Would've cost me considerably more to buy from a local sports shop.

hrhjuliet says

Use less oil. Drive your car less.

Don't buy diamonds, or anything unethically mined.

Don't buy an overpriced home, and work with for sale by owner.

Done, done, and done.

hrhjuliet says

Use cash whenever you can

But then I won't get my glut of airline reward miles!!

Etc, etc, etc.

Again, I feel like a hamster on a wheel. In theory your ideas would help, if everybody did that. But we have a middle class who is squeezed. I think my responses/rebuttals are reasonable, and it would be difficult to convince enough of the middle class to, for example, pay more for their clothes.

dublin hillz says

Why not just do the fair thing and create a sale in the 15-20 annual rents range?

Sounds good to me. That would be a fair compromise: boomers ask 30+ and we ask 5-10.dublin hillz says

Fiurther, there's a "slight" logistical problem. At 2X income there would be a glut of qualified buyers competing for a very limited supply

Until everyone bought, settled down, and was not house poor. Then they would have a lot more budget room to spend spend spend. Exactly what it would take to get out of this recoverecession. The dust could settle at lower prices than it is today.

hrhjuliet says

Boycott the Made in China goods, or any goods made in a place that uses children or political prisoners. Boycott Monsanto, Phillip Morris, Walmart, Nestlé, Dow, Pfizer, Chevron, Coca Cola, etc. If they have a record that hits all three: human rights abuses, murder and pollution, then start with them.

And pretty much every corporation on the planet. You would have to live the Amish lifestyle.
Even my iphone is made in China, anyone who tries to take it away from me faces severe bodily harm. If we buy cheap low margin toys from China, and they use the money to buy expensive high margin Boeing jets and Disneyland tickets, we both end up being better off.

hrhjuliet says

Use less oil. Drive your car less.

I'll give everyone a little hint - PRIUS.

hrhjuliet says

Or are you all too comfortable and chicken?

Honestly, I don't know how I could do it in this day and age. I'm chicken.

hrhjuliet says

Don't buy diamonds, or anything unethically mined.

Can you have a word with my wife too?
Lie to her if you have to.

dublin hillz says

I am generation X. Regarding prices at twice median income theory - there are
some cities in bay area, where median income is around 95K such as fremont and
dublin. So what you are proposing is that homes go for 190K

Hence, part of the problem - you want to fit/meet the theory, then move. Here in Houston it's pretty easy to find some fairly nice homes in the $100K to $150K range, some even lower. But I have reason to believe that you'd never (almost never) consider moving. You and your family WANT to live somewhere in the SF area, or at least be in CA. And good for you. But there is a price to pay for making that decision and three of the prices are high priced homes, high cost of living and high taxes.

The conditioning for high rent/buy in SFBA starts in college - there are students living off campus sharing a 2 bd apt going for $2500 per month. 4 people splitting it at $625 per head start believing that this type of "living" is normal so when they graduate and find that in regular cities (not college towns) they can get a much more luxurious apartment for that price it cements this belief.

Call it Crazy says

dublin hillz says

The conditioning for high rent/buy in SFBA starts in college

I guess what they are NOT teaching in college there is critical thinking and math skills... Maybe Economics should be a mandatory course???

The students don't feel it cause their parents are often paying for it or they are getting student loans which when they are 18-22 may feel like free found money. And in cities like berkeley with artificially restricted supply (and hence higher rents for new residents) due to rent control, the housing is often old and poorly maintained, yet students put up with it because they want to live close to campus.

Every generation has challenges - boomers dealt with the draft, overt racism, homophobia etc... I could tell you stories of what I've personally been through that thankfully rarely occur today. My advice for my kids is basically what I've lived by myself: play the cards you've been dealt to the best of your ability and try to stay positive. As you think, so shall it be. If you think you can't, then you can't etc...; I came from a background of poverty and drug addiction and found that life is what you make it. I think most of what happens in life is basically neutral - we make events and circumstances positive or negative based on whatever spin we put on it. Often times I've been told by friends and relatives that some event that seemed like a catastrophe ended up being a blessing in disguise. For every perceived disadvantage your generation has there are innumerable advantages undreamed of by older generations. Overall life keeps getting better for all people - although progress is uneven and it seems like two steps forward and one step back. Even little things such as the fact that when I started my first engineering job (in SF) I came home from work reeking of cigarette smoke b/c several people in the office smoked. It was unhealthy and disgusting and today people throughout the country and in much of the world take it for granted that they don't have to deal with that. It's a little thing but it's an example of the progress we've made. My kids can't believe the kind of racist, homophobic, misogynist statements that were routine in the workplace (in SF!) and I'm in my mid 50s. The truth is you can have the life you desire and it is more possible now than it ever was.