patrick.net

New Renter says

Why don't you go back to school, slog it out in a STEM program all the way up to Ph.D. and see how the world thanks you for your accomplishments?

After all its up to YOU to make the world a better place for the rest of us.

I flunked Chemistry. :(

Rin says

New Renter says

First it will be remote access surgery where a cheap foreign surgeon operates the robot remotely and the patient is taken care of by on site assisting staff. A small staff of on site surgeons can handle any emergencies that come up.

Ok, how about a pharmaceutical salesman?

Why don't you guys become Pharmacists? Starting pay $150,000, easy to find a job.

Strategist says

I flunked Chemistry. :(

Consider yourself one of the lucky ones.

Many, who shine in the physical sciences, suffer in the end, sans the premed, pre Patent law, or pre-finance/business types.

Strategist says

Rin says

New Renter says

First it will be remote access surgery where a cheap foreign surgeon operates the robot remotely and the patient is taken care of by on site assisting staff. A small staff of on site surgeons can handle any emergencies that come up.

Ok, how about a pharmaceutical salesman?

Why don't you guys become Pharmacists? Starting pay $150,000, easy to find a job.

We were talking about the kid.

I already work for a hedge fund. I've gone the way of evil, though not a wolf, but perhaps, a *Bobcat of Wall Street*.

Rin says

Strategist says

Rin says

New Renter says

First it will be remote access surgery where a cheap foreign surgeon operates the robot remotely and the patient is taken care of by on site assisting staff. A small staff of on site surgeons can handle any emergencies that come up.

Ok, how about a pharmaceutical salesman?

Why don't you guys become Pharmacists? Starting pay $150,000, easy to find a job.

We were talking about the kid.

I already work for a hedge fund. I've gone the way of evil, though not a wolf, but perhaps, a *Bobcat of Wall Street*.

So, you raking it in?

Strategist says

I already work for a hedge fund. I've gone the way of evil, though not a wolf, but perhaps, a *Bobcat of Wall Street*.

So, you raking it in?

Well, I'm in the starting dozen, and the P/L just started a few years ago.

Now that I'd left STEM work for good, I realize that the big ppl in finance/trading, do not live in the same world as the rest of those, who toil for a living.

I'd never changed my lifestyle so my mortgage is paid off and I'm saving for retirement.

Being on the phone all day, however, has turned me into an animal of sorts.

Strategist says

Why don't you guys become Pharmacists? Starting pay $150,000

Average pay $114k:

http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/pharmacist/salary

Strategist says

easy to find a job.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/life/overdose-pharmacy-students

Pharmacists are already on the robot chopping block.

singularityhub.com/2012/06/03/meet-robot-rx-the-robot-pharmacist-doling-out-350-million-doses-per-year/

Strategist says

New Renter says

Why don't you go back to school, slog it out in a STEM program all the way up to Ph.D. and see how the world thanks you for your accomplishments?

After all its up to YOU to make the world a better place for the rest of us.

I flunked Chemistry. :(

Don't let THAT stop you! Never give up!

Rin says

New Renter says

Why don't you go back to school, slog it out in a STEM program all the way up to Ph.D. and see how the world thanks you for your accomplishments?

After all its up to YOU to make the world a better place for the rest of us.

Thanks New Renter.

Since I didn't attend graduate school myself, I wasn't in the position to do the alley-opp tomahawk jam.

Thanks for completing the play.

Someone has to beat some sense into there people!

New Renter says

Strategist says

New Renter says

Why don't you go back to school, slog it out in a STEM program all the way up to Ph.D. and see how the world thanks you for your accomplishments?

After all its up to YOU to make the world a better place for the rest of us.

I flunked Chemistry. :(

Don't let THAT stop you! Never give up!

OK, I never took it in college, just high school. All those flying electrons made me dizzy. And the periodic table made me fall asleep. What's a guy to do?
I remember H2SO4, which I wanted pour over my teachers head. I also remember Au, I wanted lots of it. Other then that I thought I'd leave it to the geniuses with glasses.

Rin says

Well, there are still areas like dermatology

Pays peanuts.

Straw Man says

Rin says

Well, there are still areas like dermatology

Pays peanuts.

Ever heard the joke, "What do elephants and scientists have in common?"

"They both work for peanuts"

A perfect score on the SAT ?

I've known a several people that got perfect scores on the Math SAT, including my brother and also a close childhood friend did as well. But perfect score on the verbal too (not just a high score) ? I can tell you that's pretty rare.

The kid is gifted, not just because he knows a lot, but because of the kind of focus involved in getting a perfect score. And he will get a full ride to a top school (unless his parents are high income), and the world is wide open as far as possibilities go. Chances are very high that he will use that intelligence of his to make good choices with what he does.

OR he might just pursue money.

Either way the next dozen years or so should be very interesting for him. I would encourage him to keep an open mind for at least the next 3 years and just study a lot of different things.

marcus says

Chances are very high that he will use that intelligence of his to make good choices with what he does.

There's an olde saying for law school graduates.

The 'A' students become professors; the 'B' students become judges, but it's the 'C' students who make all the money.

Of course, grade inflation has changed all that but the principle remains.

If you really think that academic stuff like GPA/SAT/LSAT/MCAT etc make successful ppl then you haven't really worked in the real world.

I suspect, that if this fellow isn't a very outgoing/social kid, chances are, he'll be a postdoc and be taken advantage of by the academic establishment.

Read the Bill Sidis story in the links in the above postings.

Rin says

If you really think that academic stuff like GPA/SAT/LSAT/MCAT etc make successful ppl then you haven't really worked in the real world.

THe two people I was thinking of who got perfect Math SAT scores, were (and are) very successful. One has been retired very well off since he was about 56. The other one of my older brothers is very successful (including financially)and still working because he likes his work and because it's important work.

So you don't think most guys that get perfect Math scores on their SATs and go to MIT of CalTech end up being successful ?

I would say there are parts of the real world that you know next to nothing about.

marcus says

So you don't think most guys that get perfect Math scores on their SATs and go to MIT of CalTech end up being successful ?

I would say there are parts of the real world that you know next to nothing about.

Well, I have a perfect Math SAT but you don't see me bragging.

Replace the word, "most" with many or more than 35-40%.

I do know a number of them and they work at Kendall Sq, right next to MIT. And really, it's because their alma mater working in those places hires 'em, right off the campus, and gives 'em that first/second job.

Afterwards, like everyone else, they fade away because being able to simply nail exams, *bust the curve* or what have you, isn't what it takes to really succeed in the work world.

Think corporate politics, dealing with MBA-ologists, etc.

Rin says

being able to simply nail exams, *bust the curve* or what have you, isn't what it takes to really succeed in the work world.

I know several people who nailed exams, went to Caltech, and are not setting the world on fire by any means - doing no better or worse than others who went to bad state schools didn't work. I also know one guy who had perfect SATs and 5s on 12 AP exams who nearly dropped out of college.

This does not mean that they are living dull/meaningless lives, but life is such a matter of intangible skills and luck that we should not buy into the idea of wunderkinds having it made.

One of the most successful people I know never learned his multiplication tables, schmoozed and bullshitted his way through school, barely finishing college, and is now in management at an extremely famous software firm. From the first day of freshman year (h.s.) until graduation day, he kissed ass to the most popular seniors - in fact, senior year was hard for him, because he had fewer asses above him to kiss, so he seemed lost. When I run into him now, he can't stop talking about himself. And it works on me, too: I actually like the guy, as amusing/irritating as I find him.

I am kind of surprised that this news item is getting any interest. Yawn.

HydroCabron says

I know several people who nailed exams, went to Caltech, and are not setting the world on fire by any means. I also know one guy who had perfect SATs and 5s on 12 AP exams who nearly dropped out of college.

Well, no one needs to set the world of fire, however, ppl do need to be able to follow their creativity and passions.

What academics and others preach is that simply logging the hours, doing homeworks, getting A's, publishing papers, yada, yada, means that in the end, there's a pot of gold waiting where the rainbow ends.

This is the common lie, which folks like Marcus and others, believe.

The truth is that today, I'm making a ton of money, being a salesman for a hedge fund. Being a BS artist is not my passion in life and this isn't what I originally wanted to do but it's necessary, to get out with a bronze parachute, to do what I really want with my life.

Rin says

What academics and others preach is that simply logging the hours, doing homeworks, getting A's, publishing papers, yada, yada, means that in the end, there's a pot of gold waiting where the rainbow ends.

I try to cut professors some slack, because few have worked more than 2-3 years in the real world, and I believe it takes about 5 for the brainwashing of academe to fade away. Academe selects for people who never worked outside it, and never paid much attention to the real world, other than to feel superior to it.

I am still amazed by how different the culture and values of the outside world are from what surrounded me when I was in school. The difference is so stark that I wonder if sending kids to elite/selective liberal arts, Ivies, or MIT/Caltech/Harvey Mudd sorts of places is very bad for them. I am dead serious.

HydroCabron says

I am still amazed by how different the culture and values of the outside world are from what surrounded me when I was in school. The difference is so stark that I wonder if sending kids to elite/selective liberal arts, Ivies, or MIT/Caltech/Harvey Mudd sorts of places is very bad for them. I am dead serious.

In all honesty, the purpose of those schools is to help students get recruited by management consulting or financial firms, nothing else. Thus, those elite firms, like McKinsey, can tell the world that they recruit from the 'best American universities'. Otherwise, they don't offer much value.

Where ppl like Marcus and others often get it wrong is that they confuse the submission of a homework assignment and then getting feedback like 97%, having this direct causation on some success in a creative (or discovery) endeavor.

Like that flash of steadfast concentration (the R&D worker bee) then spills over into some contemplative idea generation machine, along with a task force of patent attorneys.

What the parents need to teach their prodigy son is that if he has an original idea, DO NOT write it down in a work or academic lab environment. Keep it at home. And unfortunately, many parents will never teach this obvious fact.

Thus, as time goes by, those original ideas (that is if he has any) become the property of someone else and before you know, the kid's advisor has patents under his name or his company's R&D director, now has a new product launch division.

And yes, when that occurs, very often, the kid gets sacked (if he doesn't play along as a peon) and is then, barred from using similar ideas elsewhere due to anti-compete agreements. Of course, who in academia will teach this principle? None, because they depend upon the pilfering of younger ppl's ideas and know-how.

Rin says

What the parents need to teach their prodigy son is that if he has an original idea, DO NOT write it down in a work or academic lab environment. Keep it at home. And unfortunately, many parents will never teach this obvious fact.

The problem with this is that an idea by itself is not worth very much. Investors want proof of concept at the very least. If the idea is just a new program that the kid can write at home "in his free time" that's one thing. If however its say a new cancer drug that will take real resources that one can't find in a typical garage and will be well outside the budget of a typical STEM worker unless s/he has a meth operation on the side.

Rin says

This is the common lie, which folks like Marcus and others, believe.

I'd prefer you wouldn't speak for what I believe. One would think you could make your point without trolling me.

What I think, based on observation is that the kind of students who get perfect SAT scores, mostly As as grades, and a lot of 5s in AP classes, have a fairly rare combination of three things

1) intellectual aptitude
2) work ethic
3) focus

All 3 of these are pretty much required, to be this kind of student, but these people will differ in which of these they are the strongest in.

I am not making absolute generalizations, but if people show a rare combination of these 3 traits as teenagers, yes, often they are going to be fairly successful later in life as well. And sometimes very much so.

This is not to suggest that academic success is necessary for success later. In fact it's obvious that since 99% of children do not possess this combination of traits (plus the motivation to be so successful academically), you don't need to be as smart as one of these kids to conclude that most highly successful people do not have this kind of academic background.

marcus says

but if people show a rare combination of these 3 traits as teenagers, yes, often they are going to be fairly successful later in life as well. And sometimes very much so.

The reason why I depart from this line of thinking is that the 4.0 - Science UGPA / 42 - MCAT / 2 undergrad publications profile, while is great at let's say getting accepted to a Johns Hopkins medical school (MD program), is not the vector of what gets ppl ahead at a Boston Consulting Group, JP Morgan, or even my firm, where having business skills, plus a bit of sales and networking support, gets one into the higher levels.

And you're correct, if you attend Hopkins MD and then later, finish your residency in neurosurgery there or at a peer institute like Mayo Clinic, then you're right, you'll be successful. And in this case, it's clearly the USMLE exam scores and medical GPA which got you there, along with recommendations from your residency directors. Outside of a field, like medicine, this sort of direct causation between schoolwork and success is less likely.

marcus says

you don't need to be as smart as one of these kids to conclude that most highly successful people do not have this kind of academic background.

In general, the folks with MBAs (including the Whartons of the world) are able to get the B+'s and A-'s, however, their greatest talent is forming associations with an angle for self-promotion. It's that latter skill, which makes 'em Jr Equity partner at an investment bank or a COO of a Fortune 1000, not the fact that they won some mathematics contests in college. All of our senior partners here are of the above quality.

Rin says

In general, the folks with MBAs (including the Whartons of the world) are able to get the B+'s and A-'s, however, their greatest talent is forming associations with an angle for self-promotion. It's that latter skill, which makes 'em Jr Equity partner at an investment bank or a COO of a Fortune 1000, not the fact that they won some mathematics contests in college. All of our senior partners here are of the above quality.

So... long story short, it's not about accomplishing anything? It's just about making friends and promoting yourself.

theoakman says

Rin says

In general, the folks with MBAs (including the Whartons of the world) are able to get the B+'s and A-'s, however, their greatest talent is forming associations with an angle for self-promotion. It's that latter skill, which makes 'em Jr Equity partner at an investment bank or a COO of a Fortune 1000, not the fact that they won some mathematics contests in college. All of our senior partners here are of the above quality.

So... long story short, it's not about accomplishing anything? It's just about making friends and promoting yourself.

Well, you can kinda have your cake and eat it as well, however, if the seniors at this firm, didn't back my friends and I with real clients (& their clients' capital), we wouldn't be in business today despite our so-called *original* use of phase boundary & fuzzy control theory in the overall system of risk projection/containment.

Plus, our first deal was won by my presentation. And that's when I understood that sales was 'it'. My pitch had little do with applied chemistry or electrical engineering ideas but stressed the culture of the organization and how it addressed the major client concerns.

Personally, I think we're lucky which is why I'm calling it quits after this job. This isn't a career for a real engineering person. Like I said, I'm the *Bobcat of Wall St*. To survive long term, you need to be the Wolf.

And these senior partners are Wall St fellas, Wharton/Columbia b-school types. I think one's also got an additional law degree in there, though I'm not sure if it's Penn, NYU, or London. But you get the picture, pedigree with Wall St and City of London connections, not academicians and scholars.

Here we go again ...

http://news.yahoo.com/video/program-prepares-students-careers-stem-042154723.html

So in this propaganda piece, hands-on will get ppl to study STEM.

So when 25% of freshman HSers want to major in STEM, by senior year, that number is down to 12% but having a role model, along with hands-on experience, will prevent that attrition. At least that's the theory.

Since I'd gone through STEM, here's what educators don't get ... professors do not want to give everyone B+'s and higher in the field. The idea is to get enough kids to get C's (or below) in weed out courses like statistical thermodynamics, signals & systems, and so forth. In other words, the homeworks and exams are suppose to be hard and aren't suppose to appeal to this 'hands-on' technician type of careerist.

By default or design, STEM is suppose to be a leaky pipeline!

The end result is that senior STEM graduates are prepared to enter graduate school for the applied sciences. Once again, why doesn't anyone talk about this?

If a person wants hands-on, he should go to a trade school and become a machinist. Thus, this STEM focus is a farce.

If anything, I think kids are smart for not opting for STEM careers, outside of premed, pre-Patent law, pre-business/finance.

haha, Rin, it's sad but you're right. I went through graduate school, got the PhD in Physical Chemistry, and the whole Pharma industry high tailed it out of my state in a short period. Now, there are no good jobs for me unless I wanted to work for $40k. So I went into teaching. Anotehr field with no monetary award. Now, what do I do? I push kids into majoring in science and engineering, so they can continue the vicious cycle of going no where.

That being said, in certain professions, being the best simply ensures you get no where. In my profession, it's not possible to get a raise in district. So if I jump ship to another district, I can negotiate a new salary. Right now I teach AP Physics and pretty much have the best results in the state 2 years running and it's only my 3rd year teaching the course. 5th year teaching overall. I've been on a few interviews the past two years. No supervisor is willing to hire me. Why? Because I'm probably much smarter and better than them at what they did. I get the distinct impression that they are 100% against hiring someone that can potentially take their job.

After two years of completely dominating my field, I'm pretty sure that if I ever wanted to get hired anywhere else, I need to do a crappier job. No one likes the new guy coming in and kicking their ass, especially in education where people are so defensive about the job they do.

theoakman says

I get the distinct impression that they are 100% against hiring someone that can potentially take their job.

This is one of the M.O.s of the work world ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dilbert_principle

New Renter says

If however its say a new cancer drug that will take real resources that one can't find

In this case, it may have more to do with a type of structural integrity vis-a-vis affinity coefficient. A very smart person will be able to deduce a type of optimization schematic, where the various test conditions could be derived statistically, w/o overdoing the brute force way of trying everything under the sun approach.

Thus, he still needs to keep some of the above secret, otherwise, his employer will have a basis of trying out countless ligands, in a short amount of time, thus making it even harder for the kid to breakout on his own, w/o stealing corporate IP.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/survey-finds-math-science-grads-earn-top-dollar-072124599--finance.html

Ok, in this piece someone finally says something ...

Excerpt: 'Le said there also is a "glass-ceiling effect" in the math, science and technology fields. "In a lot of cases, STEM jobs have fewer promotion ladders than other positions" in areas like finance or advertising, he said.'

All right, now this is the first pro-STEM article, which hints at the notion that not everything is rosy at the end of the rainbow.

btw, when I was in grad school. One of the students in another lab synthesized a new polymer that was her idea and it ended up having some good minor medical applications. Her boss, who was a blithering idiot and had no business in science is still going around giving talks about the polymer and got herself promoted to dean prior to age 40.

theoakman says

btw, when I was in grad school. One of the students in another lab synthesized a new polymer that was her idea and it ended up having some good minor medical applications. Her boss, who was a blithering idiot and had no business in science is still going around giving talks about the polymer and got herself promoted to dean prior to age 40.

If this wasn't so common, I'd get really upset over this story. Unfortunately, it's the way it is.

The subject of this thread, the 16 year old prodigy, is ripe for being taken advantage of by similar academic advisors. His parents, instead of being some South Asian *model minority* taskmasters, should make him aware of the world at large and prevent him from becoming a statistic.

Rin says

If I hear MD-PhD ... meaning, *no debt upon graduation, but ok, I'll put up with a d*ck advisor for some time* to become a debt free anesthesiologist, then you'll hear me, cheering in the aisles.

Can you explain how MD-PhD is a clever way to become a debt free anesthesiologist? This one rang a bell for me but I had not realized there was a connection...

justme says

Rin says

If I hear MD-PhD ... meaning, *no debt upon graduation, but ok, I'll put up with a d*ck advisor for some time* to become a debt free anesthesiologist, then you'll hear me, cheering in the aisles.

Can you explain how MD-PhD is a clever way to become a debt free anesthesiologist? This one rang a bell for me but I had not realized there was a connection...

If one is a top student, like this kid, instead of applying for an MD, like the rest of the premeds, he can apply for a joint MD-PhD program. In those programs, the first two years are the first two years of medical school. Then, starting from year three, the student does research for an academic advisor with the idea of getting it done during a 4 year span. And finally, the last year and half are the clinical rotations of medical school. In the end of 8 years, the person has two degrees.

The competitive scholarships for these programs, sometimes called Medical Scientist Training Program, tend to provide a stipend and tuition waiver for up to 8 years. And normally, unlike a PhD, an MD-PhD is suppose to have a finite time of schooling. The smart persons I'd known, who'd done these joint programs, never stayed for more than 7-8 years. But sure, during those 8 years, they were rather busy, not having more than their Sundays off.

Still, unlike other PhD candidates, a residency in medicine, was waiting for them, upon graduation.

Basically, no debt and a whole future in front of them.

justme says

Rin says

If I hear MD-PhD ... meaning, *no debt upon graduation, but ok, I'll put up with a d*ck advisor for some time* to become a debt free anesthesiologist, then you'll hear me, cheering in the aisles.

Can you explain how MD-PhD is a clever way to become a debt free anesthesiologist? This one rang a bell for me but I had not realized there was a connection...

MD PhD candidates are provided with free tuition to the Med School for 7 years. 3 of those years, they do research. For the entire 7 years, they receive a stipend in addition to free tuition that is usually around 30k. So you graduate debt free and get 30k a year tax free. Some of them offer state employee type health insurance on top of it.

theoakman says

3 of those years, they do research

From what I'd heard, the research is closer to 4 years and the MD part is compressed into 3 to 3.5 years. Basically those 4th year MD electives are gone from the menu.

Rin says

theoakman says

btw, when I was in grad school. One of the students in another lab synthesized a new polymer that was her idea and it ended up having some good minor medical applications. Her boss, who was a blithering idiot and had no business in science is still going around giving talks about the polymer and got herself promoted to dean prior to age 40.

If this wasn't so common, I'd get really upset over this story. Unfortunately, it's the way it is.

The subject of this thread, the 16 year old prodigy, is ripe for being taken advantage of by similar academic advisors. His parents, instead of being some South Asian *model minority* taskmasters, should make him aware of the world at large and prevent him from becoming a statistic.

I've seen advisor take these things, form a start up company, and come up with a very similar discovery with some slight modifications. Then, they quickly get bought out by a pharma company before they make a lot of money. So they use public money to fund their research, screw over their students who do the actual work, and then they finagle their way into getting themselves paid.

theoakman says

So they use public money to fund their research, screw over their students who do the actual work, and then they finagle their way into getting themselves paid.

Sigh .....

And that's the whole point of this thread.

The reason why I wrote this rant is that the parents, guidance counselors, friends of the family, etc aren't talking about this.

Instead, every time this kid scores a 98% on complex variables, they say 'great', now let's give him some more homeworks, more term papers, more lab assignments.

Instead, they need to train him to *pretend to want to be a serf*. And then, once he gains admissions to the MD-PhD with MSTP scholarship or whatever it's called these days, then he can get back to following his interests, provided that he does the expected work for the PhD part of the program.

Rin says

theoakman says

So they use public money to fund their research, screw over their students who do the actual work, and then they finagle their way into getting themselves paid.

Sigh .....

And that's the whole point of this thread.

The reason why I wrote this rant is that the parents, guidance counselors, friends of the family, etc aren't talking about this.

Instead, every time this kid scores a 98% on complex variables, they say 'great', now let's give him some more homeworks, more term papers, more lab assignments.

Instead, they need to train him to *pretend to want to be a serf*. And then, once he gains admissions to the MD-PhD with MSTP scholarship or whatever it's called these days, then he can get back to following his interests, provided that he does the expected work for the PhD part of the program.

Well, on the flip side, I had a student 2 years ago that I really admire. Brilliant kid and he is now at Duke studying engineering. He formed a team to compete in an electric car contest and took first place. He hasn't even graduated yet but he was flown out to visit the Tesla headquarters to have a meeting with the board of directors. He really is amazing because he did it all basically on his own time in a garage. The second he graduated high school, I knew he was destined to go far...even as an engineer.

There's another kid who just graduated that is a complete genius and probably puts the kid in this article to shame. He probably could have been in college at age 11 but he stayed in high school just to be around his friends and have a social life. But long story short, the kid is a math genius, established himself as the very top student in the entire nation in Math, Physics, Biology, and Chemistry as a sophomore in high school. He's going to Harvard this year. I really am curious to see if he can manage to turn his gifts into money.

theoakman says

He really is amazing because he did it all basically on his own time in a garage.

Well that's just it. He did it on his own terms. What's happening to the kid in the article is that he's following the guidelines of society, which is why he has 3 associates degrees because somewhere in his and his parents' minds, is that more certificates are better.

theoakman says

But long story short, the kid is a math genius, established himself as the very top student in the entire nation in Math, Physics, Biology, and Chemistry as a sophomore in high school.

Well, I knew someone exactly like that, representing the USA in international science competitions from the New England region.

He'd attended CalTech on a full scholarship but later, burned out after getting his dual PhD in EE & ChemE. Yes, it was the whole psycho advisor thing. I forgot which evil grad school was his undoing but his parents refused to talk about it.

I think he's some technician at a national lab today, but his career wasn't so spectacular after the crash/burn.