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http://finance.yahoo.com/news/survey-finds-math-science-grads-earn-top-dollar-072124599--finance.html

Ok, in this piece someone finally says something ...

Excerpt: 'Le said there also is a "glass-ceiling effect" in the math, science and technology fields. "In a lot of cases, STEM jobs have fewer promotion ladders than other positions" in areas like finance or advertising, he said.'

All right, now this is the first pro-STEM article, which hints at the notion that not everything is rosy at the end of the rainbow.

btw, when I was in grad school. One of the students in another lab synthesized a new polymer that was her idea and it ended up having some good minor medical applications. Her boss, who was a blithering idiot and had no business in science is still going around giving talks about the polymer and got herself promoted to dean prior to age 40.

theoakman says

btw, when I was in grad school. One of the students in another lab synthesized a new polymer that was her idea and it ended up having some good minor medical applications. Her boss, who was a blithering idiot and had no business in science is still going around giving talks about the polymer and got herself promoted to dean prior to age 40.

If this wasn't so common, I'd get really upset over this story. Unfortunately, it's the way it is.

The subject of this thread, the 16 year old prodigy, is ripe for being taken advantage of by similar academic advisors. His parents, instead of being some South Asian *model minority* taskmasters, should make him aware of the world at large and prevent him from becoming a statistic.

Rin says

If I hear MD-PhD ... meaning, *no debt upon graduation, but ok, I'll put up with a d*ck advisor for some time* to become a debt free anesthesiologist, then you'll hear me, cheering in the aisles.

Can you explain how MD-PhD is a clever way to become a debt free anesthesiologist? This one rang a bell for me but I had not realized there was a connection...

justme says

Rin says

If I hear MD-PhD ... meaning, *no debt upon graduation, but ok, I'll put up with a d*ck advisor for some time* to become a debt free anesthesiologist, then you'll hear me, cheering in the aisles.

Can you explain how MD-PhD is a clever way to become a debt free anesthesiologist? This one rang a bell for me but I had not realized there was a connection...

If one is a top student, like this kid, instead of applying for an MD, like the rest of the premeds, he can apply for a joint MD-PhD program. In those programs, the first two years are the first two years of medical school. Then, starting from year three, the student does research for an academic advisor with the idea of getting it done during a 4 year span. And finally, the last year and half are the clinical rotations of medical school. In the end of 8 years, the person has two degrees.

The competitive scholarships for these programs, sometimes called Medical Scientist Training Program, tend to provide a stipend and tuition waiver for up to 8 years. And normally, unlike a PhD, an MD-PhD is suppose to have a finite time of schooling. The smart persons I'd known, who'd done these joint programs, never stayed for more than 7-8 years. But sure, during those 8 years, they were rather busy, not having more than their Sundays off.

Still, unlike other PhD candidates, a residency in medicine, was waiting for them, upon graduation.

Basically, no debt and a whole future in front of them.

justme says

Rin says

If I hear MD-PhD ... meaning, *no debt upon graduation, but ok, I'll put up with a d*ck advisor for some time* to become a debt free anesthesiologist, then you'll hear me, cheering in the aisles.

Can you explain how MD-PhD is a clever way to become a debt free anesthesiologist? This one rang a bell for me but I had not realized there was a connection...

MD PhD candidates are provided with free tuition to the Med School for 7 years. 3 of those years, they do research. For the entire 7 years, they receive a stipend in addition to free tuition that is usually around 30k. So you graduate debt free and get 30k a year tax free. Some of them offer state employee type health insurance on top of it.

theoakman says

3 of those years, they do research

From what I'd heard, the research is closer to 4 years and the MD part is compressed into 3 to 3.5 years. Basically those 4th year MD electives are gone from the menu.

Rin says

theoakman says

btw, when I was in grad school. One of the students in another lab synthesized a new polymer that was her idea and it ended up having some good minor medical applications. Her boss, who was a blithering idiot and had no business in science is still going around giving talks about the polymer and got herself promoted to dean prior to age 40.

If this wasn't so common, I'd get really upset over this story. Unfortunately, it's the way it is.

The subject of this thread, the 16 year old prodigy, is ripe for being taken advantage of by similar academic advisors. His parents, instead of being some South Asian *model minority* taskmasters, should make him aware of the world at large and prevent him from becoming a statistic.

I've seen advisor take these things, form a start up company, and come up with a very similar discovery with some slight modifications. Then, they quickly get bought out by a pharma company before they make a lot of money. So they use public money to fund their research, screw over their students who do the actual work, and then they finagle their way into getting themselves paid.

theoakman says

So they use public money to fund their research, screw over their students who do the actual work, and then they finagle their way into getting themselves paid.

Sigh .....

And that's the whole point of this thread.

The reason why I wrote this rant is that the parents, guidance counselors, friends of the family, etc aren't talking about this.

Instead, every time this kid scores a 98% on complex variables, they say 'great', now let's give him some more homeworks, more term papers, more lab assignments.

Instead, they need to train him to *pretend to want to be a serf*. And then, once he gains admissions to the MD-PhD with MSTP scholarship or whatever it's called these days, then he can get back to following his interests, provided that he does the expected work for the PhD part of the program.

Rin says

theoakman says

So they use public money to fund their research, screw over their students who do the actual work, and then they finagle their way into getting themselves paid.

Sigh .....

And that's the whole point of this thread.

The reason why I wrote this rant is that the parents, guidance counselors, friends of the family, etc aren't talking about this.

Instead, every time this kid scores a 98% on complex variables, they say 'great', now let's give him some more homeworks, more term papers, more lab assignments.

Instead, they need to train him to *pretend to want to be a serf*. And then, once he gains admissions to the MD-PhD with MSTP scholarship or whatever it's called these days, then he can get back to following his interests, provided that he does the expected work for the PhD part of the program.

Well, on the flip side, I had a student 2 years ago that I really admire. Brilliant kid and he is now at Duke studying engineering. He formed a team to compete in an electric car contest and took first place. He hasn't even graduated yet but he was flown out to visit the Tesla headquarters to have a meeting with the board of directors. He really is amazing because he did it all basically on his own time in a garage. The second he graduated high school, I knew he was destined to go far...even as an engineer.

There's another kid who just graduated that is a complete genius and probably puts the kid in this article to shame. He probably could have been in college at age 11 but he stayed in high school just to be around his friends and have a social life. But long story short, the kid is a math genius, established himself as the very top student in the entire nation in Math, Physics, Biology, and Chemistry as a sophomore in high school. He's going to Harvard this year. I really am curious to see if he can manage to turn his gifts into money.

theoakman says

He really is amazing because he did it all basically on his own time in a garage.

Well that's just it. He did it on his own terms. What's happening to the kid in the article is that he's following the guidelines of society, which is why he has 3 associates degrees because somewhere in his and his parents' minds, is that more certificates are better.

theoakman says

But long story short, the kid is a math genius, established himself as the very top student in the entire nation in Math, Physics, Biology, and Chemistry as a sophomore in high school.

Well, I knew someone exactly like that, representing the USA in international science competitions from the New England region.

He'd attended CalTech on a full scholarship but later, burned out after getting his dual PhD in EE & ChemE. Yes, it was the whole psycho advisor thing. I forgot which evil grad school was his undoing but his parents refused to talk about it.

I think he's some technician at a national lab today, but his career wasn't so spectacular after the crash/burn.

Rin says

I think he's some technician at a national lab today, but his career wasn't so spectacular after the crash/burn.

Ok, got off the phone with a classmate to get an update.

This former superstar academician is today, a lab assistant for a national lab, doing data analysis on sensor arrays. He's not a principal investigator but is a helping hand. The good part of this work is that the pressure is low [ all govt/defense money, no real deadlines ] but so is the pay, some ~$45K, only a thousand or two, more than an academic postdoc.

Years ago, he'd represented the USA, as one of its top students in Math and Chemistry, for various international competitions. Though he didn't attend my own high school, he was known among the community, as he'd routinely attended the local math contests and basically, blew away the entire coastal region from Connecticut to Maine.

There were countless ppl, dumber than this guy, who earn over a $100K today. If I were to avg out his earnings to brainpower index, he'd be the least successful person I'd ever heard of.

HydroCabron says

I am kind of surprised that this news item is getting any interest. Yawn.

Agree. It's pretty boring, and who gives a crap if he has three useless associates degrees. He could have used his time more wisely than that, as Rin said. Probably mom and dad made him take these stupid community college classes because they weren't creative enough to encourage him to do things that might further a career or get him into a good graduate/professional program.

The other stupid forwarded article was the one about that guy who got into all 8 Ivy league schools. Really? Because he was too stupid to apply only to the 2 he most wanted to go to and wasted his time on the other 6?

That said, I know people who got into all 8 who didn't make the news like that fool, but most of them were athletes. They were all overrepresented ethnicities, unlike the guy in the article, and went to very good public high schools.

corntrollio says

The other stupid forwarded article was the one about that guy who got into all 8 Ivy league schools. Really? Because he was too stupid to apply only to the 2 he most wanted to go to and wasted his time on the other 6?

He could have applied in all 8 instead of 2 because he did not want to put all his eggs in 2 baskets. It could also be a strategy to see who offers him the best terms and scholarships.

Strategist says

He could have applied in all 8 instead of 2 because he did not want to put all his eggs in 2 baskets.

That just means he was lazy and didn't do his research to figure out why one would be more suitable than the other, or his mom and dad made him apply to all of them.

Strategist says

It could also be a strategy to see who offers him the best terms and scholarships.

Ivy League schools give no merit-based scholarships for undergrads by Ivy League policy. For the top ones (Yale, Harvard, Princeton), the aid packages are need-based and admissions is need-blind. The financial aid packages for these schools are largely standardized because they are based on the forms for the most part. The other Ivies may do different things, but these three schools are the most generous.

I believe most or all of the other Ivies are now need-blind too, at least for US-based students, although they didn't all used to be. Some of them still try to make money off foreigners by not being need-blind for foreign students. I know one school used to be 97% need-blind not that long ago (meaning, they filled their class mostly need-blind, but for the last few percentages, they looked at financial aid in making an admissions decision), but is now need-blind.

corntrollio says

who gives a crap if he has three useless associates degrees. He could have used his time more wisely than that, as Rin said. Probably mom and dad made him take these stupid community college classes because they weren't creative enough to encourage him to do things that might further a career or get him into a good graduate/professional program.

The problem is that there are numerous parents, guidance counselors, etc, who keep saying, 'take more classes', 'do more labs', and so forth.

I've seen this kind of brain dead thinking, all over the place.

corntrollio says

That just means he was lazy and didn't do his research to figure out why one would be more suitable than the other, or his mom and dad made him apply to all of them.

Trust me, many kids don't know what they're doing. They generally defer to mommy/daddy for key decision making.

corntrollio says

I believe most or all of the other Ivies are now need-blind too, at least for US-based students, although they didn't all used to be. Some of them still try to make money off foreigners by not being need-blind for foreign students. I know one school used to be 97% need-blind not that long ago (meaning, they filled their class mostly need-blind, but for the last few percentages, they looked at financial aid in making an admissions decision), but is now need-blind.

Only someone closely associated with Universities would know details like this. Are you a teacher/professor?

I was told that Brown Univ was the premier Ivy college, which specifically shopped around for the richest student body, so that it could offer that perfect blend of a lazy, *bumming around* college experience, plus some prestige, and money coming back from well off alumni later.

That's why a lot of booksmart people gravitate towards medicine by default. They at least have a guaranteed income that is well above average. Problem is, the finance arm of this industry bleeds the kids now for all they can with tuition and debt.

Doctors are a labor cartel of A students that prevent anyone from entering their field unless they have the grades. They are also well banded together to prevent non-doctors from performing menial tasks.

theoakman says

That's why a lot of booksmart people gravitate towards medicine by default. They at least have a guaranteed income that is well above average. Problem is, the finance arm of this industry bleeds the kids now for all they can with tuition and debt.

Doctors are a labor cartel of A students that prevent anyone from entering their field unless they have the grades. They are also well banded together to prevent non-doctors from performing menial tasks.

You're one of the few persons, who's willing to say this out loud.

Everyone else makes these so-called claims that they could have been law partners or bankers but instead, chose medicine to help humanity.

What BS!

Many MDs will have failed in law, finance, consulting, etc, because those areas are about politics and playing corporate games.

Rin says

Many MDs will have failed in law, finance, consulting, etc, because those areas are about politics and playing corporate games.

My only interest in medical school, after this hedge fund work, is so that I have a guaranteed degree (within 4 years) where I can conduct research and publish papers, w/o being in some 6-10 year neverending PhD program.

Rin says

Rin says

Many MDs will have failed in law, finance, consulting, etc, because those areas are about politics and playing corporate games.

My only interest in medical school, after this hedge fund work, is so that I have a guaranteed degree (within 4 years) where I can conduct research and publish papers, w/o being in some 6-10 year neverending PhD program.

Well, as a veteran of grad school, I can tell you that the way you get out of the neverending PhD program is to go on interviews and lie about your expected graduation date. The second you get a job offer, they suddenly become willing to graduate you.

Strategist says

Only someone closely associated with Universities would know details like this. Are you a teacher/professor?

No, this is/was public knowledge on their website, and they stated it openly on tours. It's not insider knowledge at all unless you choose not to read information available to you.

Rin says

I was told that Brown Univ was the premier Ivy college, which specifically shopped around for the richest student body

If I remember correctly, Brown was the one that used to be 97% need-blind.

Rin says

The problem is that there are numerous parents, guidance counselors, etc, who keep saying, 'take more classes', 'do more labs', and so forth.

I've seen this kind of brain dead thinking, all over the place.

This kind of nonsense is very common among East Asian and Indian immigrant parents. All they know is "become a doctor", and they typically know fuck-all about how college/grad schools really work in this country, and they have a very limited view of the job market. Some of the upper middle class parents who are doctors may be able to direct their kids to something that will help them get into med school, but otherwise they are mostly clueless and just encourage their kids to do more without knowing what more is. For example: "You should become an Eagle Scout. Jawaharlal became an Eagle Scout, and now he goes to Harvard."

corntrollio says

Rin says

The problem is that there are numerous parents, guidance counselors, etc, who keep saying, 'take more classes', 'do more labs', and so forth.

I've seen this kind of brain dead thinking, all over the place.

This kind of nonsense is very common among East Asian and Indian immigrant parents. All they know is "become a doctor", and they typically know fuck-all about how college/grad schools really work in this country, and they have a very limited view of the job market. Some of the upper middle class parents who are doctors may be able to direct their kids to something that will help them get into med school, but otherwise they are mostly clueless and just encourage their kids to do more without knowing what more is. For example: "You should become an Eagle Scout. Jawaharlal became an Eagle Scout, and now he goes to Harvard."

There's a large white house at the highest point in Yorba Lind overlooking the 91 freeway. It's owned by an Indian family where the parents and children are all doctors. The land used to belong to Arnold Schwarznegger who sold it because the city would not allow a helicopter pad on the property.
The home is for sale for $21 million.

Strategist says

There's a large white house at the highest point in Yorba Lind overlooking the 91 freeway. It's owned by an Indian family where the parents and children are all doctors. The land used to belong to Arnold Schwarznegger who sold it because the city would not allow a helicopter pad on the property.

The home is for sale for $21 million.

You're talking about Satsang? Their property tax valuation is still under $4M, so they probably paid dick for the land and then they built a tacky house on it. I'm not really sure what your point is, in any case.

theoakman says

Rin says

Rin says

Many MDs will have failed in law, finance, consulting, etc, because those areas are about politics and playing corporate games.

My only interest in medical school, after this hedge fund work, is so that I have a guaranteed degree (within 4 years) where I can conduct research and publish papers, w/o being in some 6-10 year neverending PhD program.

Well, as a veteran of grad school, I can tell you that the way you get out of the neverending PhD program is to go on interviews and lie about your expected graduation date. The second you get a job offer, they suddenly become willing to graduate you.

Or if your advisor suddenly dies.

Not that I'd condone it...but I understand.

New Renter says

Or if your advisor suddenly dies.

Not that I'd condone it...but I understand.

So they don't make you start over?

Thanks much for the post Rin. Bet that guy is smarter than I am. And perhaps he is interested in straightening out civilization, if he knows how to bring these USA histories widely to people's attention.
The Public Be Suckered
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