patrick.net

thunderlips11 says

That's the scam. Universities are expanding PhD programs across the board, and they already turn out graduates by the bushel.

But we need more Education! More! We're all unskilled.

It's not a problem, if everyone knows that it isn't a pipeline for a job.

If I had a full eggs nest and little to do with my time, sure, I'd get a PhD in Norse Archaeology or some ancient Etruscan language.

Rin says

If I had a full eggs nest and little to do with my time, sure, I'd get a PhD in Norse Archaeology or some ancient Etruscan language.

Oh sure, pick the ONE area that there is a demand.

HydroCabron says

The stories of adjunct hell have been around since the 1980s, if not before, but back then it was just Ramen, roommates, and driving that 3rd-hand Chevy Vega with no rear brakes and no air conditioning.

Used to hear stories of search committees sifting through 750 applications for a tenure-track position. It's much worse now, as there are now state schools which are adjunct-only, and even elite private colleges are hiring more adjuncts. It's possible that all departments will become 75% adjunct in the future.

None of this is secret, restricted knowledge that is being hidden from undergraduates.

And yet people still go to graduate school. Amazing.

Graduate programs should be shutting down by the hundreds for lack of students.

Agreed. I worked with quite a few post-docs in the early '80's. Two had nervous breakdowns back then, and several are no longer walking the planet after checking out in their '50's from natural causes.

mmmarvel says

Rin says

If I had a full eggs nest and little to do with my time, sure, I'd get a PhD in Norse Archaeology or some ancient Etruscan language.

Oh sure, pick the ONE area that there is a demand.

The point is that there is no demand for a PhD, a.k.a Piled Higher and Deeper.

Even a great research petrochemical engineer is really an experienced MS level educated person, who'd done some extra work on some aspect of a unit operation, for that PhD title. More often than not, what he does in industry will depart from his PhD topic.

Thus, I'd say that instead of making these degrees more marketable, let's just say that they are for ppl, who like to think about a particular problem but don't need a job.

So in my hypothetical PhD case, when I'm rich and not doing anything, I can ponder all I want on those Viking ship wrecks, off the coast of Newfoundland, and write articles and blogs on the ancient cultural exchanges with native tribes on the mainland.

Of course, in the real world, even if I were rich, I'd rather attend medical school and still have a practical degree next to my name.

Rin says

Of course, in the real world, even if I were rich, I'd rather attend medical school and still have a practical degree next to my name.

I prefer XXX, KBE over XXX, MD.

Peter P says

Rin says

Of course, in the real world, even if I were rich, I'd rather attend medical school and still have a practical degree next to my name.

I prefer XXX, KBE over XXX, MD.

I'd rather buy a title of nobility from the UK like ...

Lord Rin Rockefeller the Great

Rin says

Peter P says

Rin says

Of course, in the real world, even if I were rich, I'd rather attend medical school and still have a practical degree next to my name.

I prefer XXX, KBE over XXX, MD.

I'd rather buy a title of nobility from the UK like ...

Lord Rin Rockefeller the Great

You are right, a knight is just a commoner, whereas a peer is peerless. :-)

Sadly, my only acquaintance with a Rockefeller last name is an oyster.

Peter P says

my only acquaintance with a Rockefeller last name is an oyster.

Food must have been bland and gross back then, if they would have done this horrible thing to a delicious Oyster.

Preheat oven to 450 degrees F (220 degrees C). Place bacon in a large, deep skillet. Cook over medium high heat until evenly brown. Drain, crumble and set aside.
Clean oysters and place in a large stockpot. Pour in enough water to cover oysters; bring the water and oysters to a boil. Remove from heat and drain and cool oysters. When cooled break the top shell off of each oyster.
Using a food processor, chop the bacon, spinach, bread crumbs, green onions, and parsley. Add the salt, hot sauce, olive oil and anise-flavored liqueur and process until finely chopped but not pureed, about 10 seconds.
Arrange the oysters in their half shells on a pan with kosher salt. Spoon some of the spinach mixture on each oyster. Bake 10 minutes until cooked through, then change the oven's setting to broil and broil until browned on top. Serve hot.

I just break them open leave the salt water in the shell, spoon on horseradish, few dashes of Tabasco(no substitute), sprinkle of salt, and a squeeze of a Lemon wedge, then slurp it down.

Great now I'm thinking about Tarks.

CaptainShuddup says

Food must have been bland and gross back then, if they would have done this horrible thing to a delicious Oyster.

I do prefer raw oysters, with no condiments at all.

I do too, but every thing in my cocktail is supposed to kill what ever may be lurking.

I just eat raw garlic cloves. Who needs a vampire slayer?

I wonder if there are adjunct teachers? if and adjunct Professor is good enough to teach college students, can't an adjunct be a teacher of kids too?

I don't think that article is accurate.

I know several teachers. Some teach middle school, some elementary. They all live in expensive houses, drive reasonable cars... no clunkers there, go on vacations a lot, and their retirement is secure with a pension.

Maybe it's not like that everywhere else, but that article tries to make it out like every teacher out there is working for minimum wage. And in reality that's just not the case by a mile.

FortWayne says

I don't think that article is accurate.

I know several teachers. Some teach middle school, some elementary. They all live in expensive houses, drive reasonable cars... no clunkers there, go on vacations a lot, and their retirement is secure with a pension.

Maybe it's not like that everywhere else, but that article tries to make it out like every teacher out there is working for minimum wage. And in reality that's just not the case by a mile.

Well the article is about adjunct proffessors-not teachers. I was wondering as to why they don't have adjunct teachers?

A PhD is a terrible investment. Being a professor used to be a prestige. No longer. There are easier and better ways now.

Professors must be on food stamps and section 8 in order to fully be attuned to philosophical ideas especially to ponder the fact how some professors can command a $250,000 annual salary while lecturing twice a week about the dangers to the economy posed by the 1% while tuition is raised every year "because there is no funding."

sbh says

Peter P says

Being a professor used to be a prestige.

Boston University has been incredibly generous to the pater familias, but, after all, it's a prestigious and incredibly wealthy institution. As a true academic, he always used to take the academic position: education is for education's sake. Nowadays he has admitted in front of witnesses that it's just not worth it for today's young adults.

When I was a kid I dreamed of becoming a professor. I even got accepted to an Ivy League PhD program. Fortunately, I decided to stay in California. :-)

sbh says

Perhaps inn thirty years the job market will be better for philosophy and theology students.

It is more about what the particular student chooses to do with the knowledge.

Philosophy, theology, or better yet, philosophical theology would be great training for the next business leader or hedge fund manager. It is all about the human condition. Understanding what people choose to belief is already tremendously useful in the market.

Philosophy was my favorite subject in college. I nearly flunked Bioethics though. People in applied ethics tend to lack a sense of humor.

sbh says

The bulk of my parents' estate will be managed by my brother and me until our deaths, then to be given to BU as an endowment.

Why? Are your parents under the illusion their estate will benefit actual working faculty or students and NOT be funneled into administrator bonuses for figuring out how to raise tuition yet again?

sbh says

Perhaps inn thirty years the job market will be better for philosophy and theology students.

It will only because it can't get any worse.

Peter P says

People in applied ethics tend to lack a sense of humor.

Yeah, eugenics has a way of doing that.

FortWayne says

I know several teachers. Some teach middle school, some elementary. They all live in expensive houses, drive reasonable cars... no clunkers there, go on vacations a lot, and their retirement is secure with a pension.

Some teachers CAN make good money. I have been told a kindergarten teacher at Harker Academy here in SJ can make $99k/yr.

That IS for someone with 30 yrs of seniority but still, damn! Kindergarten!

But still I have to ask - are those teachers you know affording all that on a teachers income? And did they buy those expensive houses within the past 20 years or so?

New Renter says

It will only because it can't get any worse.

Some philosophy majors can make great software developers. They possess very good meta-thinking skills.

HOw is it that the cost of a college education has gone up so much, at the same time that they are spending so much less on professors ?

Seriously. This is fucked up.

People are going to answer that it's administrators. But I don't see how that's possible. What the hell are they doing ? How do they justify their existence ? THere has to be a board of governors or some high level people that can figure this out.

And then here comes online college classes.

They better figure out ho to cut costs. And it's a shame that it has to come from those who make the biggest difference, that is the professors.

New Renter says

sbh says

The bulk of my parents' estate will be managed by my brother and me until our deaths, then to be given to BU as an endowment.

Why? Are your parents under the illusion their estate will benefit actual working faculty or students and NOT be funneled into administrator bonuses for figuring out how to raise tuition yet again?

Many of BU's students had come from well off backgrounds. I'd known quite a few, back in those days. Thus, for those trustafarians, I wouldn't be worried if their BA to PhD studies only rendered them a job at their family's firm.

And then, considering that BU's tuition has always been rising and now, even companies which used to reimburse professionals for their MBA studies, can't cover BU's runaway tuition. I only hope that these newly minted managers aren't let go, for they're on the hook for whatever they'd borrowed.

I suspect that whatever they get from donors will be handled by the administration, in other words, the fox guarding the hen house. So while there may be a few nice build outs, etc, I suspect that the faculty don't see much of it.

sbh says

This endowment will pertain to the philosophy of religion.

It is an interesting area of philosophy.

marcus says

HOw is it that the cost of a college education has gone up so much, at the same time that they are spending so much less on professors ?

Buildings, sports teams, rec centers, luxury dormitories, sexual allegation payoffs, you name it.

Making those rape accusers go away ain't cheap!

sbh says

As my father has over decades raised millions for his departments in several universities he knows how to structure funding such that the institutions can't just piss it away.

Rin says

I suspect that whatever they get from donors will be handled by the administration, in other words, the fox guarding the hen house. So while there may be a few nice build outs, etc, I suspect that the faculty don't see much of it.

Any money granted strictly to fund one thing (e.g. faculty compensation) only frees up that portion of the regular budget to be redirected to administrator compensation.

New Renter says

marcus says

HOw is it that the cost of a college education has gone up so much, at the same time that they are spending so much less on professors ?

Buildings, sports teams, rec centers, luxury dormitories, sexual allegation payoffs, you name it.

Making those rape accusers go away ain't cheap!

This about sounds right.

Rin says

New Renter says

marcus says

HOw is it that the cost of a college education has gone up so much, at the same time that they are spending so much less on professors ?

Buildings, sports teams, rec centers, luxury dormitories, sexual allegation payoffs, you name it.

Making those rape accusers go away ain't cheap!

This about sounds right.

Been there, seen it.

Students are !@#$%#$% stupid, they'll vote for fancy rec centers and luxury food courts and then complain to high heaven about skyrocketing tuition hikes.

New Renter says

luxury food courts

Well, I don't have a problem with nice food courts. And I don't believe that they can't make 'em cheaply.

As for rec centers ... I say, buy some dumbbells and screw that.

Rin says

New Renter says

luxury food courts

Well, I don't have a problem with nice food courts. And I don't believe that they can't make 'em cheaply.

As for rec centers ... I say, buy some dumbbells and screw that.

FAncy rec cetners don't exlain it. They already own the land. They can amortize it over 40 years. Sure it costs something, but it doesn't account for such crazy tuition hikes. And all the while they are paying half of what they used to pay for professors.

At the state schools it's because it's not subsidized by the states as much. Part of the REagan revolution was shifting government costs back to the state level,

I don't know. I've heard it's the administrative salaries. NOt just how much they've gone up, but the increase in the entire administrative bureaucracy. I still say it doesn't make sense though.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-14/bureaucrats-paid-250-000-feed-outcry-over-college-costs.html

Purdue has a $313,000-a-year acting provost and six vice and associate vice provosts, including a $198,000 chief diversity officer. It employs 16 deans and 11 vice presidents, among them a $253,000 marketing officer and a $433,000 business school chief.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323316804578161490716042814

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/septemberoctober_2011/features/administrators_ate_my_tuition031641.php?page=all

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/06/higher-ed-administrators-growth_n_4738584.html

http://goldwaterinstitute.org/article/administrative-bloat-american-universities-real-reason-high-costs-higher-education

etc, etc, etc....

Great work if you can get it, I guess.

jazz music says

Your point is not made as it applies to engineers. A Phd will be a strong asset to the credibility of an independent consulting engineer and Phds in the corporate setting will commonly be used in high-profile positions to enhance the image of huge business proposals, and interface with key customer technical contacts.

In other words, it's a finishing school type of award.

Right now, once my equity is bought out in this hedge fund, I could attend a PhD program in chemical engineering, since I have the prerequisite credentials. A bunch of folks can later hire me, even though I don't need the salary anymore, as their CTO, and then, we can sell ourselves as tech leaders/specialists.

Rin says

New Renter says

luxury food courts

Well, I don't have a problem with nice food courts. And I don't believe that they can't make 'em cheaply.

Nope, no reason at all food courts can't be attractive, functional and inexpensive, especially when as Marcus points out the university already owns the land.

HOWEVER

My experience in witnessing the construction of a prominent campus building elucidated for me the magnitude of the bureaucracy involved in such a project. Committee after committee and everyone with many layers of sillyness from each. We ended up with a less than optimally functional yet VERY expensive, energy intensive building completed just in time for the rolling blackouts of 2003.

The best part was when the dean decided to try to raise funding by selling the naming rights to the building. There were no takers.

The students also voted for a very expensive new rec center to be constructed. They were cutting edge 2001 tech with several *gasp* large plasma TV's in the foyer.

Seriously, WHY the F*CK does anyone need $20k worth of energy gulping plasma TV's just to to show static announcements?

Your tax, tuition and donation dollars at work folks.

jazz music says

Rin says

The point is that there is no demand for a PhD

Your point is not made as it applies to engineers. A Phd will be a strong asset to the credibility of an independent consulting engineer and Phds in the corporate setting will commonly be used in high-profile positions to enhance the image of huge business proposals, and interface with key customer technical contacts.

But are employers actually PAYING for those credentials?

Are newly minted, no-postdoc Ph.Ds being actively recruited with multiple, highly lucrative offers?

Rin says

engineer is really an experienced MS level educated person, who'd done some extra work

There is a hell of a lot to be said getting your 'advanced' degree from the school of hard knocks or at least the real world. We were working on a bridge, it was a retro-fit. There were some real issues regarding the top of the structure where the mechanism which raised and lower the bridge wasn't working as the engineers planned/drew the plans. We had a two hour round table session where all the engineers (about six of them), the lead men for the contractor and some other principle workers talked about the solution. In the end, one fellow who only had a high school diploma but had been a welder for eight years and a crane operator; who had actually been up and looked at the problem himself was the one who came up with the solution. If we'd waited for the pencil and paper engineers to figure it out, we'd still have the problem. Not enough credit is given to experience any more.

Peter P says

Fortunately, I decided to stay in California.

Fortunately??? While I'm not keen on the Ivy League nonsense, I hope the decision to stay in CA doesn't come back to bite you in the rear. What is fortunate is that somewhere down the road, when you come to your senses, you still can leave and find a better life elsewhere.

FortWayne says

I know several teachers. Some teach middle school, some elementary. They all live in expensive houses, drive reasonable cars... no clunkers there, go on vacations a lot, and their retirement is secure with a pension.

Most teachers I know work a second job over the summer. Teachers salaries are public record. Post the salaries and the school district to back this up. Let's see how their teachers salaries are paying for expensive houses and lots of vacations. That is if you're not talking out your ass.

New Renter says

Are newly minted, no-postdoc Ph.Ds being actively recruited with multiple, highly lucrative offers?

Absolutely, if they are from india and are willing to work 90 hours a week for 30k.

bob2356 says

New Renter says

Are newly minted, no-postdoc Ph.Ds being actively recruited with multiple, highly lucrative offers?

Absolutely, if they are from india and are willing to work 90 hours a week for 30k.

That's a post-doc.