patrick.net

New Renter says

SolarFX claims their stills can operate even at night and on cloudy days due to their use of mineral oil as a working fluid. I can also see they might be able to modify the stills to produce electricity by superheating the steam and using a steam based generator while continuing to produce fresh water. That would allow the stills to continue their usefulness in wet years.

The thing here is that it's using the heat/light of the sun, to do its actual work, which is the boil/distill the briny water.

Rin says

New Renter says

SolarFX claims their stills can operate even at night and on cloudy days due to their use of mineral oil as a working fluid. I can also see they might be able to modify the stills to produce electricity by superheating the steam and using a steam based generator while continuing to produce fresh water. That would allow the stills to continue their usefulness in wet years.

The thing here is that it's using the heat/light of the sun, to do its actual work, which is the boil/distill the sea water.

I wonder if California can have a combined-cycle fracking/RO setup.

Perhaps the waste water from RO can be used to extract shale gas, which can in turned be used to power the RO? I don't know anything about the process. Just throwing ideas around.

Peter P says

combined-cycle fracking/RO setup.

How about making it three way ... the Solar station does much of the work and during that time, the fracking sends power back to the grid, and when the Solar output declines, lack of sunshine, then the fracking powers the RO. In the end, the water purification is a 7x24 operation.

Rin says

Peter P says

combined-cycle fracking/RO setup.

How about making it three way ... the Solar station does much of the work and during that time, the fracking sends power back to the grid, and when the Solar output declines, lack of sunshine, then the fracking powers the RO. In the end, the water purification is a 7x24 operation.

Excellent! I like three-ways. :-)

Peter P says

Rin says

Peter P says

combined-cycle fracking/RO setup.

How about making it three way ... the Solar station does much of the work and during that time, the fracking sends power back to the grid, and when the Solar output declines, lack of sunshine, then the fracking powers the RO. In the end, the water purification is a 7x24 operation.

Excellent! I like three-ways. :-)

We're not in Montreal right now, get your head out of the gutter.

New Renter says

The idea is not to pump seawater to the central valley for desalination. The idea is to use local water currently too saline to be used as is.

Just out of curiosity, exactly how does the local inland water get salty in the first place?

Rin says

Peter P says

combined-cycle fracking/RO setup.

How about making it three way ... the Solar station does much of the work and during that time, the fracking sends power back to the grid, and when the Solar output declines, lack of sunshine, then the fracking powers the RO. In the end, the water purification is a 7x24 operation.

And here's the part that gets the farmers who buy his water most excited: His solar desalination plant produces water that costs about a quarter of what more conventionally desalinated water costs: $450 an acre-foot versus $2,000 an acre-foot.

That's why. That's $2000/acre foot assuming the plant is in constant use. Shuttering an RO plant makes the water that much more expensive:

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_25859513/nations-largest-ocean-desalination-plant-goes-up-near

It makes no economic sense to build a hugely expensive RO plant for part time use.

zzyzzx says

New Renter says

The idea is not to pump seawater to the central valley for desalination. The idea is to use local water currently too saline to be used as is.

Just out of curiosity, exactly how does the local inland water get salty in the first place?

Agriculture runoff and local geology.

New Renter says

It makes no economic sense to build a hugely expensive RO plant for part time use.

Since this one RO plant is already built, perhaps it can be the "backup" for SoCal and the rest of AZ & NM.

Then, smaller Solar stations can be deployed elsewhere, to make up 80% of the demand for potable water.

Rin says

New Renter says

It makes no economic sense to build a hugely expensive RO plant for part time use.

Since this one RO plant is already built, perhaps it can be the "backup" for SoCal and the rest of AZ & NM.

Then, smaller Solar stations can be deployed elsewhere, to make up 80% of the demand for potable water.

The Carlsbad plant at best provides but 7% of the current needs of San Diego County, and none for LA county. Its but a very expensive drop in a very big bucket.

AZ and NM are on their own here.

AZ and NM could however benefit greatly from Solar Desal assuming they have enough local brackish water available to make it work

New Renter says

Its but a very expensive drop in a very big bucket.

Not a problem, just put it in the defense budget.

RO is all about driving salt water through a membrane. I wonder if it can be used in a tidal setup. Desalination can be powered by gravity.

Peter P says

RO is all about driving salt water through a membrane. I wonder if it can be used in a tidal setup. Desalination can be powered by gravity

I'd tested the solar distillation with a Fresnel lens with a jug of water, a long time ago. It was rather effective.

Rin says

I'd tested the solar distillation with a Fresnel lens with a jug of water, a long time ago. It was rather effective.

Cool.

Peter P says

Rin says

I'd tested the solar distillation with a Fresnel lens with a jug of water, a long time ago. It was rather effective.

Cool.

Given the amount of sunshine, SoCal gets, using reflective mirrors to heat up an input stream of sea water may be a great way to mass produce fresh water.

Rin says

Given the amount of sunshine, SoCal gets, using reflective mirrors to heat up an input stream of sea water may be a great way to mass produce fresh water.

SoCal also has expensive real estate though. Will mirrors take up too much space?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power

Peter P says

SoCal also has expensive real estate though. Will mirrors take up too much space?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power

Perhaps then, as a DoD project, an aqueduct into the SoCal deserts, with Solar distillation systems in place there. This could be covered under a black budget of *what if all the US's fresh water is contaminated* type of doomsday scenario. You see, once you move money out of the public funding space, anything can be done. Didn't the Pentagon lose a couple of trillion, not knowing where it went, a number of years ago?

Wouldn't it be easier to solar-distill inland grey/black water for those communities?

Peter P says

Wouldn't it be easier to solar-distill inland grey/black water for those communities?

This is a DoD project, so the idea is to mass produce fresh water, using the ocean as the source, not a local municipal thing. Then, the target distribution could be anywhere in the southwest regions.

So granted, it's not water for all of the US but more a fail-safe strategy so that if a shortage occurs, there's a backup plan in place. Just like the Eisenhower highway system was originally intended for military troops and vehicles, however, the net benefit was also for the civilian population.

Rin says

the net benefit was also for the civilian population.

Here's one potential future benefit ... New Mexico's northwest has a lot of coal mining. It's a perfect stop for a coal-to-gasoline conversion plant but here's the problem ... where would it get the vast amount of water, as synfuel production requires a huge water intake for the WGSR/Fischer-Tropsch synthesis?

Yes, it would be Cali's ocean water to the rescue.

Peter P says

RO is all about driving salt water through a membrane. I wonder if it can be used in a tidal setup. Desalination can be powered by gravity.

Highly unlikely:

For brackish water desalination the operating pressures range from 250 to 400 psi, and for seawater desalination from 800 to 1 000 psi.

http://www.oas.org/usde/publications/Unit/oea59e/ch20.htm

a one-metre (three-foot) column of seawater produces a pressure of about one decibar (0.1 atmosphere)

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/531121/seawater/301668/Density-of-seawater-and-pressure

So even with a high to low tidal difference of 10 feet you're only looking at 1/3 of an atmosphere pressure difference or 5 psi, nowhere near enough to push the water through a membrane.

New Renter says

So even with a high to low tidal difference of 10 feet you're only looking at 1/3 of an atmosphere pressure difference or 5 psi, nowhere near enough to push the water through a membrane.

What if it is concentrated at a small inlet?

Peter P says

New Renter says

So even with a high to low tidal difference of 10 feet you're only looking at 1/3 of an atmosphere pressure difference or 5 psi, nowhere near enough to push the water through a membrane.

What if it is concentrated at a small inlet?

Makes no difference. The weight of the water is supported by the container and the ground beneath as well as the small area of the membrane

Rin says

Just like the Eisenhower highway system was originally intended for military troops and vehicles, however, the net benefit was also for the civilian population.

Yes! Just like Hitler's Nazi Autobahn!

Rin says

Rin says

the net benefit was also for the civilian population.

Here's one potential future benefit ... New Mexico's northwest has a lot of coal mining. It's a perfect stop for a coal-to-gasoline conversion plant but here's the problem ... where would it get the vast amount of water, as synfuel production requires a huge water intake for the WGSR/Fischer-Tropsch synthesis?

Yes, it would be Cali's ocean water to the rescue.

Assuming you're not speaking tounge-in-cheek you'd also have to pump that water 800 miles and 5500 ft up, not an inexpensive proposition in itself.

It'd be a LOT better to just use local water out of the Navajo reservoir.

indigenous says

I have heard Peter Demandis say that this is just down the road, a machine the size of an office refrigerator could produce gallons of potable water from any water source.

Remember folks always bet on technology.

OK, feel free to leverage your life savings right here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersonic_transport

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion
http://www.fool.com/portfolios/rulebreaker/2000/rulebreaker001114.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/05/21/1210825/-Why-should-Californians-pay-for-50-billion-tunnel-boondoggle#

New Renter says

Agriculture runoff and local geology.

Why is there salt in agricultural runoff? I mean, it's not like farmers are salting their fields...

New Renter says

Makes no difference. The weight of the water is supported by the container and the ground beneath as well as the small area of the membrane

Or... Use wave action to pump the water into a column 1600 to 2000 ft high in order to generate the required pressure. Too ugly? Use the same pumping system to get it high enough to Roman aqueduct it to the central valley for solar processing?

New Renter says

Assuming you're not speaking tounge-in-cheek you'd also have to pump that water 800 miles and 5500 ft up, not an inexpensive proposition in itself.

It'd be a LOT better to just use local water out of the Navajo reservoir

Tongue/cheek, however, it also makes the point about the DoD, being able to transport large volumes of fresh water, anywhere in the zone.

Thus, the NM synfuel station would simply be a beneficiary of the black budget projects, as oppose to let's say Blackwater.

Of course, if the doomsday super-drought scenario occurs, that synfuel water feed stream, will then be loaded onto local NM aqueducts (or transporters) to be distributed to municipalities.

zzyzzx says

New Renter says

Agriculture runoff and local geology.

Why is there salt in agricultural runoff? I mean, it's not like farmers are salting their fields...

Actually they are - with ammonium nitrate, phosphates, etc.

Rin says

Thus, the NM synfuel station would simply be a beneficiary of the black budget projects, as oppose to let's say Blackwater.

Hey, some of my best friends are recipients of that sweet black budget money! All those HALO jumps and ammo don't pay for themselves you know!

New Renter says

Hey, some of my best friends are recipients of that sweet black budget money! All those HALO jumps and ammo don't pay for themselves you know!

I think your friends are still on the general ledger for the DoD. I'm talking about all the money which went missing from the books.

New Renter says

OK, feel free to leverage your life savings right here:

Ok Luddite, how about other inventions that have been quite helpful, but you want to throw out the baby with the bathwater? Sounds like Krugman saying the internet will go the way of the fax machine.

Rin says

I think your friends are still on the general ledger for the DoD. I'm talking about all the money which went missing from the books.

What was it Rumsfeld said? the books don't work that way or something?

That was 2.5 fucking trillion fucking dollars?

New Renter says

Peter P says

RO is all about driving salt water through a membrane. I wonder if it can be used in a tidal setup. Desalination can be powered by gravity.

Highly unlikely:

You're both wrong. We can separate a bazillion cubic meters of Hydrogen from the Ocean Water using some AAA Batteries and use the cheap, plentiful Hydrogen Gas to power it.

I run my car on water!

zzyzzx says

New Renter says

Agriculture runoff and local geology.

Why is there salt in agricultural runoff? I mean, it's not like farmers are salting their fields...

http://ponce.sdsu.edu/the_salt_predicament.html

Rin says

How about making it three way ... the Solar station does much of the work and during that time, the fracking sends power back to the grid, and when the Solar output declines, lack of sunshine, then the fracking powers the RO. In the end, the water purification is a 7x24 operation.

Yeah, what could possibly go wrong? Of course once Rin mentioned three way, his mind got REALLY distracted. We understand.

thunderlips11 says

We can separate a bazillion cubic meters of Hydrogen from the Ocean Water using some AAA Batteries

Yeah, but that is going to sky-rocket the price of the AAA batteries. To a point that only the 1%'ers will be able to buy them.

indigenous says

New Renter says

Blind faith in technology is a dangerous and expensive thing.

So you would rather go with government?

How is government the "other" choice from blind faith in technology?

Blind faith in religion would be more accurate. And far more dangerous.

New Renter says

Blind faith in technology is a dangerous and expensive thing.

The foolishness of humanity is more reliable.

New Renter says

indigenous says

New Renter says

Blind faith in technology is a dangerous and expensive thing.

So you would rather go with government?

How is government the "other" choice from blind faith in technology?

Blind faith in religion would be more accurate. And far more dangerous.

I'm not talking about faith, I'm talking about self evident truth, with 20/20.

If you removed technology from the earth what would we have?

If you removed government from the earth what would we have?

We would still have trade, money would be created organically by gold smiths or jewelers.

What about rule of law? Take Somalia for an example, the media would have you believe that they have none. The truth however is they have a rule of law that is brilliant. As opposed to us being subjugated to a lawyers who are not ethical.

What about National Defense that could be done privately. You would then say one party would dominate, oh you mean like now with the US? Could it be wore than what we have now? NO