patrick.net

The idea is that comparative advantage creates a win win, but this is not free trade this is cronyism.

China's stock market may be a bubble but not it's real estate which has come down in price every year this is not a bubble. They also require a 50% down payment so there is little leverage.

indigenous says

The idea is that comparative advantage creates a win win,

Comparative advantage is a basically BS. Other than for agriculture, comparative advantage doesn't exist.

Another thing is that China's devaluation of the currency automatically keeps their wages low. It is about their current account which makes the government a net saver. So as the RMB gets revalued the purchasing power of the worker goes up. So the slave wage thing may have been true at one point but it is no longer the case.

Strategist says

Sure trade kills some jobs, but trade also creates jobs. Overall, there is a net benefit to both countries that trade. Bay Area correctly points this out. It's not just one study that shows this, but study after study. If trade did not benefit us, Obama would not be promoting it.

That is also BS. Free trade has been a horrible disaster for the US. As a country, we have lost an immense amount of wealth. It boggles my mind that smart people still claim free trade is a win-win. It's most definitely a win-lose and the US has been losing for a LONG time.

tatupu70 says

Comparative advantage is a basically BS. Other than for agriculture, comparative advantage doesn't exist.

That is akin to saying there is no gravity

indigenous says

That is akin to saying there is no gravity

OK, how about you give me some examples of comparative advantage that don't involve the weather.

The US is the largest manufacturer in the world. If there is no such thing as comparative advantage why wouldn't China make there own airplanes, cars, tractors?

indigenous says

The US is the largest manufacturer in the world. If there is no such thing as comparative advantage why wouldn't China make there own airplanes, cars, tractors?

Care to try again?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacturers_of_China

http://www.made-in-china.com/catalog/item999i132/Tractor-2.html

http://english.comac.cc/

Where are they? Why isn't woggy bragging about their airplanes?

indigenous says

No dumb ass they do not. Because they are not as good Boeing

Well, if they had a comparative advantage, it appears to have disappeared.

http://english.comac.cc/news/mc/201506/17/t20150617_2579325.shtml

500 C919s and 300 of the ARJ21s on order. I think you'll be seeing them flying throughout Asia pretty soon.

Heraclitusstudent says

Heraclitusstudent says

If trade did not benefit us, Obama would not be promoting it.

Lol!

There is nothing funny about simple facts. Why do you think Obama, and every previous President in recent times has been promoting free trade?

tatupu70 says

OK, how about you give me some examples of comparative advantage that don't involve the weather.

Life saving drugs. Oil, which is our lifeline. Lithium, needed for new generation batteries.
Virtually every single product we can get cheaper through trade benefits us.
You guys are so damn short sighted.

Strategist says

Life saving drugs. Oil, which is our lifeline. Lithium, needed for new generation batteries.

Virtually every single product we can get cheaper through trade benefits us.

You guys are so damn short sighted.

OK, weather and what's buried beneath the earth.

How are life saving drugs a comparative advantage?

Strategist says

Virtually every single product we can get cheaper through trade benefits us.

That's the line that folks use when they try to convince you that free trade is good. But, as a country we are trading wealth for cheaper products. That is NEVER a good trade.

tatupu70 says

Strategist says

Life saving drugs. Oil, which is our lifeline. Lithium, needed for new generation batteries.


Virtually every single product we can get cheaper through trade benefits us.


You guys are so damn short sighted.

OK, weather and what's buried beneath the earth.

How are life saving drugs a comparative advantage?

The life saving drugs we create saves human lives in other parts of the world. Similarly, life saving drugs created or even partially created in Europe is an obvious benefit to us.
Without free trade we would not have those benefits, and neither would the rest of the world.
In the 1970's, Japanese cars with their better quality started displacing unreliable American cars. We were forced to make better cars, much to our benefit. Thanks to free trade.
The list goes on and on and on for ever.

tatupu70 says

Strategist says

Virtually every single product we can get cheaper through trade benefits us.

That's the line that folks use when they try to convince you that free trade is good. But, as a country we are trading wealth for cheaper products. That is NEVER a good trade.

We are trading pieces of paper with pictures of Ben Franklin for cheaper goods. Getting goods and services at half price doubles our standard of living.

Strategist says

The life saving drugs we create saves human lives in other parts of the world. Similarly, life saving drugs created or even partially created in Europe is an obvious benefit to us.

No kidding. But it's not comparative advantage. Which was the subject of the discussion.

Strategist says

Without free trade we would not have those benefits, and neither would the rest of the world.

That's debatable. It's not an all or nothing thing. And foreign companies can set up subsidiaries in the US. We would have life saving drugs no matter where they were invented.

Strategist says

In the 1970's, Japanese cars with their better quality started displacing unreliable American cars. We were forced to make better cars, much to our benefit. Thanks to free trade.

The list goes on and on and on for ever.

And all of those things would continue to happen with tariffs.

Strategist says

We are trading pieces of paper with pictures of Ben Franklin for cheaper goods. Getting goods and services at half price doubles our standard of living.

Nope--we are trading our wealth for cheaper goods. Getting goods and services at half price only doubles our standard of living IF we keep the same wages and employment levels. Which is clearly NOT the case.

The goal should be increasing real wages, not reducing price of goods.

tatupu70 says

Strategist says

The life saving drugs we create saves human lives in other parts of the world. Similarly, life saving drugs created or even partially created in Europe is an obvious benefit to us.

No kidding. But it's not comparative advantage. Which was the subject of the discussion.

It most definitely is comparative advantage. Technology and patents are all part of trade.

tatupu70 says

Strategist says

Without free trade we would not have those benefits, and neither would the rest of the world.

That's debatable. It's not an all or nothing thing. And foreign companies can set up subsidiaries in the US. We would have life saving drugs no matter where they were invented.

Setting up foreign subsidiaries is part of trade.

tatupu70 says

Strategist says

In the 1970's, Japanese cars with their better quality started displacing unreliable American cars. We were forced to make better cars, much to our benefit. Thanks to free trade.


The list goes on and on and on for ever.

And all of those things would continue to happen with tariffs.

Trading with tariffs is still trade.
You have not made even ONE valid point.

Do you think I'm against trade?? wtf?

Of course we need some trade. What we don't need is lopsided trade agreements that kill US jobs. That's what I've been arguing-not some strawman anti-trade stance that you've imagined for me.

There's one reason: the Chinese would steal the technology, open chinese airplane factories with an eerily similar build to Boeing planes, and crank out airplanes they won't have to pay royalties to a US company for.
Oh wait, that already happened.
The stupid execs at Boeing gave away the farm when they outsourced production to China. The idea was to bypass union labor and make more money for the company. Now, instead of having a lock on the world's most reliable and efficient planes they have cheap foreign competition that didn't have to pay anything for R&D.

Quigley says

There's one reason: the Chinese would steal the technology, open chinese airplane factories with an eerily similar build to Boeing planes, and crank out airplanes they won't have to pay royalties to a US company for.

Oh wait, that already happened.

That is just one reason to have free trade agreements, which would protect our intellectual property. The Russians used to steal our patents all the time, which is how they built eerily similar passenger jets.

Strategist says

That is just one reason to have free trade agreements, which would protect our intellectual property. The Russians used to steal our patents all the time, which is how they built eerily similar passenger jets.

lol--you're kidding, right? How does a free trade agreement keep a country from stealing our technology??

Strategist says

Comparative is not determined by the ease of moving something around, it's determined by what a country can produce better than other countries. Technology, patents, copyrights, software, and movies are all included.

You're kidding, right?
Any company having patents, copyrights, software blah blah, can send its production to China and do it cheaper.
Technology, patents, copyrights, capital, human skills: none of this represents a competitive advantage of a country.
At least not workers in this country.

No Rep/Con/Teas have ever bought any COMMUNIST CHINA product, not even one,because America.
Dumb fucks losing jobs because of outsourcing. No problem,how many are sucking the govt. teat?

Heraclitusstudent says

Technology, patents, copyrights, capital, human skills: none of this represents a competitive advantage of a country.

At least not workers in this country.

Sure it does, you're kidding right?

indigenous says

Heraclitusstudent says

Technology, patents, copyrights, capital, human skills: none of this represents a competitive advantage of a country.


At least not workers in this country.

Sure it does, you're kidding right?

Did you care to elaborate and explain why you think Herc is wrong? Or do you think just stating it is persuasive?

indigenous says

Sure it does

No it doesn't.
If you want to argue this way, have at it.

tatupu70 says

We would have life saving drugs no matter where they were invented.

YUP.

And a most of the top ten RX Companies are in SOCIALIST!!! Europe.
http://www.fiercepharma.com/special-reports/top-15-pharma-companies-2014-revenue

#2 Novartis - Switzerland
#3 Roche - Switzerland
#5 Sanofi - Horrible Socialist Basketcase France
#7 GlaxosmithKline - UK
#8 AstraZeneca - UK
#9 Bayer - Socialist Early Retirement, 2nd lowest Work Hours among the OECD, Lazy Germany

thunderlips11 says

tatupu70 says

We would have life saving drugs no matter where they were invented.

YUP.

Without trade we wouldn't.

thunderlips11 says

YUP.

And a most of the top ten RX Companies are in SOCIALIST!!! Europe.

http://www.fiercepharma.com/special-reports/top-15-pharma-companies-2014-revenue

#2 Novartis - Switzerland

#3 Roche - Switzerland

#5 Sanofi - Horrible Socialist Basketcase France

#7 GlaxosmithKline - UK

#8 AstraZeneca - UK

#9 Bayer - Socialist Early Retirement, 2nd lowest Work Hours among the OECD, Lazy Germany

n. Korea,
All those countries practice capitalism. Countries that practiced communism - Russia, China, N Korea, Cuba invented next to nothing.

Dear skeptical friends. Check this out.
http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/09/law-comparative-advantage.asp

Do you know what the greatest comparative advantage of the USA is?
It's capitalism. Capitalism created Silicon Valley and the thousands of companies that 24/7 turn out futuristic products. Apple, Tesla, Google. The list never ends. Ever wonder why Russia, N Korea and the Cubans have no silicon valley that produces spectacular products? No one is stopping them from making the next Apple, right? It's Capitalism, Capitalism and Capitalism.
We are the center of the universe and the world revolves around us.

Strategist says

Dear skeptical friends. Check this out.

http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/09/law-comparative-advantage.asp

Thanks, but we're all aware of the definition and concept of comparative advantage. I just maintain that it's BS. Nothing in that nice webpage convinces me otherwise.

Strategist says

We are the center of the universe and the world revolves around us.

Sorry, I forgot the capacity of Americans to, when challenged, wrap themselves with their flags and roll on the floor kicking and screaming: "USA! USA!".

tatupu70 says

Thanks, but we're all aware of the definition and concept of comparative advantage. I just maintain that it's BS. Nothing in that nice webpage convinces me otherwise.

"I just maintain that it's BS" That my friend, is where the problem lies.

Heraclitusstudent says

Sorry, I forgot the capacity of Americans to, when challenged, wrap themselves with their flags and roll on the floor kicking and screaming: "USA! USA!".

At one point I seriously considered becoming a Professor. But while tutoring, I noticed the most hated subject was Econ and Stats. Most people claimed "It makes no sense at all" "What use is it" "Its so boring"

Strategist says

No one is stopping them from making the next Apple, right?

...Which dellivers 90% of its jobs to China. You have the company shell but not the jobs. Even most of the money stays overseas to avoid contributing to this society. Too expensive.
Nice comparative advantage for the US...

Strategist says

But while tutoring, I noticed the most hated subject was Econ and Stats. Most people claimed "It makes no sense at all" "What use is it" "Its so boring"...

... and "it's BS!".
At some point you need to have a cursory glance at the reality around you.

Heraclitusstudent says

... and "it's BS!".

At some point you need to have a cursory glance at the reality around you.

You should follow you own advice.

The very reason that the world has progressed from the ability to control fire to the technology we have today is comparative advantage. The very reason that silicon valley is the center of technology today is because of comparative advantage.

Your whining ignores the influence of mercantilism and the affects of our government allowing it and endorsing cronyism at the cost of small business.

Heraclitusstudent says

Strategist says

No one is stopping them from making the next Apple, right?

...Which dellivers 90% of its jobs to China. You have the company shell but not the jobs. Even most of the money stays overseas to avoid contributing to this society. Too expensive.

Nice comparative advantage for the US...

So why is Silicon Valley the center of the Universe for technology, and not China, Russia or Cuba?

Strategist says

So why is Silicon Valley the center of the Universe for technology, and not China, Russia or Cuba?

Because California is to Military Spending like Manitoba is to Wheat. Larry Ellison got his start working for Ampex, a Cali firm which had a juicy contract with the CIA to make databases.

Lockheed-Martin, General Dynamics, General Electric, Boeing, Honeywell, Raytheon etc. etc. all big Defense Contractors. There were even more in the 40s-70s before the Merger Era.

thunderlips11 says

Strategist says

So why is Silicon Valley the center of the Universe for technology, and not China, Russia or Cuba?

Because California is to Military Spending like Manitoba is to Wheat. Larry Ellison got his start working for Ampex, a Cali firm which had a juicy contract with the CIA to make databases.

Lockheed-Martin, General Dynamics, General Electric, Boeing, Honeywell, Raytheon etc. etc. all big Defense Contractors. There were even more in the 40s-70s before the Merger Era.

So to be a Silicon Valley you have to be big spender of the military?
I thought Russia was a military Superpower. No Silicon Valley there?
The truth is, you have to have capitalism in order to achieve what Silicon Valley has achieved, isn't it?

thunderlips11 says

Because California is to Military Spending like Manitoba is to Wheat. Larry Ellison got his start working for Ampex, a Cali firm which had a juicy contract with the CIA to make databases.

Bullshit, once again class it is about comparative advantage. It is about when ideas have sex:

http://www.ted.com/talks/matt_ridley_when_ideas_have_sex?language=en

Indulge me this is interesting and if you get your ego out of the way you might learn something.