patrick.net

lostand confused says

What you propose was already tried in the former soviet union-didn't work out so well.

Nonsense. I'm not advocating communism. Just equal opportunity for all. Isn't that the American Way?

zzyzzx says

The supply of college graduates in the US already exceeds demand. This has been the case for decades. Why should the taxpayers subsidize further oversupply?

It does? College educated unemployment is always lower than high school educated or dropout.

http://www.morningstar.com/cover/videocenter.aspx?id=659385

tatupu70 says

Nonsense. I'm not advocating communism. Just equal opportunity for all. Isn't that the American Way?

Nonsense, you are proposing communism. All are equal-kumbayah!!!! The American way is or was you earn and move your way up. Nowadays, with unfair divorce laws, or communist tax plans, you are engineering equality, by taking money and giving it to the freeloaders.

lostand confused says

Nonsense, you are proposing communism. All are equal-kumbayah!!!! The American way is or was you earn and move your way up. Nowadays, with unfair divorce laws, or communist tax plans, you are engineering equality, by taking money and giving it to the freeloaders.

Giving equal opportunity is the American Way. All of your strawman arguments don't change that.

tatupu70 says

Giving equal opportunity is the American Way. All of your strawman arguments don't change that

LOL-since when did communism become the American way. You do not give equal opportunity-you work and take opportunity and make your destiny. No wonder this country is in such dire straits. The takers feel entitled and bold.

lostand confused says

Don't we have enough college graduates working at Starbucks? Perhaps the solution is not make their education free, but to look at reality and realize not everyone needs a college education. Society functions when all aspects of it are considered-a toll collector , garbage truck driver, plumber, etc do not need to go to college at other people's expense. Why is it the left feels so entitled to other people's money??

Last Saturday I was working (an overtime day ... gasp) - in the morning I was listening to a local radio talk show which centered around cars (mechanical issues, ideas, suggestions, problems - these guys have over 100 years of experience combined, they are familiar with typical problems that certain engines/year of car have). They talked about how a local community college had teamed up with NAPA and the local automotive shops to offer curriculum to train mechanics, in addition internships with the various shops where offered so the student could learn and have hands on experience by the time they graduated. They had the ability to come out of community college at age 20 with little or no debt and a job that started out at $20 an hour or more. The hosts were pleading with any interested souls to look into the program.

On a different note - my wife had a car accident a while back (she was not injured and the damage to the car was minor), it was the other person's fault so we had to go through their adjuster. The insurance firm that we were dealing with was State Farm, he said that in Houston alone, State Farm employed over 1800 adjusters (remember this is Houston, the fourth largest city in America). It's another job where you didn't need a college degree. Met a girl at the airport the other day (remember I work at an airport) who was getting her airport badge. She worked for a smaller, private airline (Signature Airline) and worked as a concierge, basically she took care of the needs of passengers and pilots. Not sure how much she made, but she's been with the company for two years and had accepted the opportunity to transfer (gladly accepted a transfer from Washington DC) and was staying with the company. So I seriously believe she is making more than $15 an hour (oh, and she works 13 hours a day, 3 days a week, has 4 days to play with 2 of those 4 days being Friday and Saturday).

So yeah, there are a TON of jobs out there that don't require a college degree.

So builders didn't build their businesses and you didn't get smart on your own.
Obama and the Educators did that.

mmmarvel says

So yeah, there are a TON of jobs out there that don't require a college degree.

And there are a TON more people without college degrees.

tatupu70 says

College educated unemployment is always lower than high school educated or dropout.

LOL! Has more to do with people needing to take ANY job to pay off their debt that anything else. Please explain why the taxpayers should subsidize further oversupply of college graduates? You are avoiding my question.

indigenous says

No the reason is that the cost goes up as colleges compete for government money, similiar to healthcare.

You could just as easily argue that costs will need to be controlled so that colleges can compete for government money. As the article states:

"States that guarantee "no-loan" tuition at four-year public schools and free tuition at community colleges would be eligible to receive federal funds."

zzyzzx says

LOL! Has more to do with people needing to take ANY job to pay off their debt that anything else. Please explain why the taxpayers should subsidize further oversupply of college graduates? You are avoiding my question.

I'm not avoiding your question, I'm showing you data that contradicts the assumption implicit in your question.

mmmarvel says

So yeah, there are a TON of jobs out there that don't require a college degree.

I presume that students will still have to be accepted into college. This would just allow some of those without the money and who are qualified to do so. Seems reasonable to not have to base that decision entirely on your financial circumstances.

tatupu70 says

I'm not avoiding your question, I'm showing you data that contradicts the assumption implicit in your question.

Yes you are.

tatupu70 says

Please explain?

Wrap your wits around this definition, that doesn't mean ignore it like you usually do.

Economics is the study of the use of scarce resources which have alternative uses.

zzyzzx says

Yes you are.

I disagree (who decides what job needs a college education, anyway?), but like Bigs said--even if you think there are too many college educated people now, shouldn't the decision to go to college be based on academics and not one's family finances?

indigenous says

Economics is the study of the use of scarce resources which have alternative uses

Do you think that's some earth shattering revelation there? Please explain how that definition is relevant to our discussion?

tatupu70 says

shouldn't the decision to go to college be based on academics and not one's family finances?

No. It' certainly should not be at the taxpayer's expense if they are not needed. It's just common sense. you don't use taxpayers money to subsidize something that you already have too many of. Why do you hate common sense???

The score is Tat/Bigby=0 everyone else=a shitload

The college education thang is just more propaganda brought to you by indoctrination/edjumication industry, this like Keynesian economics, the military industrial complex, public transfers, and a million other alphabet soup parasites are a bad case of the kings new clothes.

tatupu70 says

Do you think that's some earth shattering revelation there? Please explain how that definition is relevant to our discussion?

It encompasses a shade more than supply and demand...

What I find hilarious is that no politician is willing to entertain the idea of legally defaulting on loans. That would be the ultimate check in whether money gets loaned out and also the amount of tuition these colleges charge to begin with.

zzyzzx says

No. It' certainly should not be at the taxpayer's expense if they are not needed. It's just common sense. you don't use taxpayers money to subsidize something that you already have too many of. Why do you hate common sense???

It's not common sense to me. If we're going to start to stop subsidizing things that we already have too many of--let's begin with fighter planes, tanks, battleships, etc.

I think society is much better off giving opportunity for everyone to have a college education than it is building more weapons.

indigenous says

It encompasses a shade more than supply and demand

OK great--so explain how it's relevant to our discussion.

indigenous says

The score is Tat/Bigby=0 everyone else=a shitload

Sure, because you've made a convincing argument that your country benefits when a student is blocked from going to college purely on financial grounds. Oh, hang on, no you haven't.

Bigsby says

Sure, because you've made a convincing argument that your country benefits when a student is blocked from going to college purely on financial grounds. Oh, hang on, no you haven't.

What kind of strange rationale. Someone can't buy something because he couldn't afford it-not the end of the world. They can go to college later if they so desire. What else do you takers want to mandate-do we have to pay for your pets too and maintain them in the comfy lifestyle of the pets in rich people's homes?? Really good poor students already get scholarship-the rets can get non college degree jobs.

lostand confused says

What kind of strange rationale. Someone can't buy something because he couldn't afford it-not the end of the world. They can go to college later if they so desire. What else do you takers want to mandate-do we have to pay for your pets too and maintain them in the comfy lifestyle of the pets in rich people's homes?? Really good poor students already get scholarship-the rets can get non college degree jobs.

You've got to be kidding me. We're not talking about someone buying a 40" LCD TV here. Education is an investment. A highly educated workforce is extremely beneficial to society.

You're literally advocating a caste system. Things will certainly cost less when only a small fraction of the population have any money....

tatupu70 says

OK great--so explain how it's relevant to our discussion.

No gawd dammit, this is your MO, and it is a huge time waster.

Bigsby says

Sure, because you've made a convincing argument that your country benefits when a student is blocked from going to college purely on financial grounds. Oh, hang on, no you haven't.

The argument is simply what is valuable and what is not. It gets skewed by government meddling. IOW a college education would not be as valuable if the market did not demand it.

indigenous says

No gawd dammit, this is your MO, and it is a huge time waster.

My MO? Asking you to make an argument or shut the hell up? I'm sorry, but you are an idiot. Please leave so the adults can have a discussion.

lostand confused says

What kind of strange rationale. Someone can't buy something because he couldn't afford it-not the end of the world. They can go to college later if they so desire. What else do you takers want to mandate-do we have to pay for your pets too and maintain them in the comfy lifestyle of the pets in rich people's homes?? Really good poor students already get scholarship-the rets can get non college degree jobs.

There's nothing strange about it. It's the US that's been the exception in the developed world. What has paying for pets got to do with allowing well-qualified students from poor backgrounds access to higher education that they would otherwise have to forfeit? There's fuck all benefit from me subsidizing your pets. There's plenty for society to gain from allowing these kids to get further education. The mere fact you start blathering on about pets as an equivalence says it all.

indigenous says

It gets skewed by government meddling. IOW a college education would not be as valuable if the market did not demand it.

lol--you can't even make this argument coherently. The MARKET demands it. It has nothing to do with government. Government is just helping folks achieve what the market demands.

tatupu70 says

My MO? Asking you to make an argument or shut the hell up?

Go fuck yourself, you always want me to splain you stuff, to which you reply that's not it.

indigenous says

The argument is simply what is valuable and what is not. It gets skewed by government meddling. IOW a college education would not be as valuable if the market did not demand it.

Education is valuable. Allowing well-qualified kids access to higher education who would otherwise miss out is valuable.

mmmarvel says

So I seriously believe she is making more than $15 an hour (oh, and she works 13 hours a day, 3 days a week, has 4 days to play with 2 of those 4 days being Friday and Saturday).

So yeah, there are a TON of jobs out there that don't require a college degree.

How does on "live" in washington dc on $15 and hour? That's netting less than 1600 a month. Good luck.

So yeah there are a TON of jobs out there that don't REQUIRE a college degree, but so many people with a degree apply the companies just throw out applications that don't have one. Go look at what HR is doing with applications some time

tatupu70 says

lol--you can't even make this argument coherently. The MARKET demands it. It has nothing to do with government. Government is just helping folks achieve what the market demands.

Congratulations you regurgitate the slogan perfectly...

indigenous says

Go fuck yourself, you always want me to splain you stuff, to which you reply that's not it.

Yes, god forbid you actually make an argument.

Bigsby says

There's plenty for society to gain from allowing these kids to get further education.

No there is not. They can always go to community college and/or choose to go to college at a later stage. For the truly brilliant among the poor-there is the scholarship and grants route.Bigsby says

It's the US that's been the exception in the developed world

Does not mean we have to follow them -the European settlers came to escape their native countries-not to recreate the same .
Bigsby says

The mere fact you start blathering on about pets as an equivalence says it all

Your kind never stops taking. it is always something more you want to take away from the hard working folks and you always feel so high and mighty.

Call it Crazy says

Another post that shows how TOTALLY clueless you are. EVERY kid that wants to go to college sends out multiple applications in hopes that one college will accept him... Common sense (which you have NONE) would tell you that there a ton more applications versus acceptances

No kidding. It's pretty easy to adjust for that. Doesn't hurt my argument at all.

Bigsby says

Education is valuable. Allowing well-qualified kids access to higher education who would otherwise miss out is valuable.

Yup the market for engineers is tremendous and apparently for code writers.

Not for Greek History or similiar.

tatupu70 says

Yes, god forbid you actually make an argument.

Projecting...

lostand confused says

Your kind never stops taking. it is always something more you want to take away from the hard working folks and you always feel so high and mighty

There's the rub. I want to take from the non-hard working folks. The ones that are making PASSIVE income. Income they make by sitting on their ass all day.

YOUR kind are the ones who keep changing the tax code to take more and more from the hard working folks.

indigenous says

Yup the market for engineers is tremendous and apparently for code writers.

Not for Greek History or similiar.

So what? The choice of the course is up to the student. Just because you don't see value in a particular course doesn't mean that it has none. And your point is irrelevant anyway because you aren't arguing for the funding to be directed. You're arguing for it not to be introduced at all.