patrick.net

Ironman says

So, in your mind, the people who are in the "Rich People" category is because of mommy and daddy??

The most important factor for being rich is definitely to choose your parents wisely. Always was, always will be.

The fact is, the majority of Rich people are born rich. That doesn't mean that a poor person is unable to become rich (Hi errc!), but it takes a bit of luck. Plenty of poor folk get educated, work very hard, and never become even remotely wealthy

So then it pays to have connections in the guf??

rando says

The most important factor for being rich is definitely to choose your parents wisely. Always was, always will be.

It can happen but it's the rare case that is grudgingly allowed so that the people don't revolt against the non-productive rent-seekers who inherited everything and then tax the rest of us.

I suppose we should all be grateful for that crumb of hope and keep our mouths shut so they don't take that away too.

BlueSardine says

So then it pays to have connections in the guf??

"Gross Upper Fup, the next step beyond the first roll of fat above the female genitalia."

Ew.

The truth may be painful, but it is not ad hom

The thing is, nobody considers you rich or successful. And judging by your posts on here, you definitely aren't in the company of rich a/o successful people.

Rich and successful people don't scrimp and save all year just to take a short Carnival Cruise in the Caribbean

I think some form of Georgism is the ultimate answer.

Everyone should get to keep all of what they really earn, but get taxed on what they take from others without working. Henry George would have just taxed land rent, but a few other taxes on non-productive rent seeking would be good too.

rando says

I think some form of Georgism is the ultimate answer.

Everyone should get to keep all of what they really earn, but get taxed on what they take from others without working. Henry George would have just taxed land rent, but a few other taxes on non-productive rent seeking would be good too.

Lets just tax the hell out of anyone who has more than $10 million in net assets. More so the billionaires.

Vietnamese play lots of poker. By definition almost all Vietnamese in LA are self made. Vietnamese have a lot of interesting stories. Certainly not the excuses offered up in this thread

errc says

The fact is, the majority of Rich people are born ricH.

This seems to be a crucial point in this thread. So prove it.

Strategist says

Lets just tax the hell out of anyone who has more than $10 million in net assets. More so the billionaires.

I'm actually opposed. I think we should distinguish between assets earned by productive work and assets earned by forcing others to pay you for the right to live on earth.

Sure, taxes should be progressive, but some people really are very productive and should get to keep the majority of what they really created.

rando says

Strategist says

Lets just tax the hell out of anyone who has more than $10 million in net assets. More so the billionaires.

I'm actually opposed. I think we should distinguish between assets earned by productive work and assets earned by forcing others to pay you for the right to live on earth.

No Patrick, anyone with more than $10 million, is unlikely to have made it through productive work alone.

I suppose it hinges on how much you value the contributions of the supporting cast.

Lots of people have founded productive companies and made more than $10 million dollars by owning equity which appreciated. Would the value of that equity exist if they had not done it?

But otoh, they really didn't do it entirely alone. They inevitably got a lot of help from paid workers. It gets kind of messy there.

Georgism is really beautiful in that it correctly points out that no one created the land, so no one deserves to get rent from land. Owners should just get rent from creating and maintaining the buildings on the land. But what percent of wealth is land these days? Taxing land and other natural resources alone may not be sufficient to run government.

I don't know, this country has an awful lot of valuable land. Think of just the value of all the coastal land alone! Are people going to stop going to the beach if we replace the Federal Income tax with a Federal Land Value tax?

My property was just subjected to a county-wide revaluation. The Land Value doubled. Somehow, the value of the building increased as well, just by aging in the elements for another dozen years. Strange

rando says

I suppose it hinges on how much you value the contributions of the supporting cast.

Lots of people have founded productive companies and made more than $10 million dollars by owning equity which appreciated. Would the value of that equity exist if they had not done it?

But otoh, they really didn't do it entirely alone. They inevitably got a lot of help from paid workers. It gets kind of messy there.

The paid workers got their compensation. The American system that made it all happen should get their fair compensation. All these successful billionaires like my hero Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, and others would not have made it in any other country except America. America needs to get compensated, fair and simple, and it should be upon death so as not to interfere with the businesses they run.

@Ironman, don't go having a midnight meltdown just because the truth hurts your feelings.

You didn't actually think you were rich and successful, did you? Oh dear...

errc says

I don't know, this country has an awful lot of valuable land.

There's something like $15 trillion in land values: https://patrick.net/1304077/2017-03-18-us-government-budget-vs-various-other-large-numbers

All government revenue (fed, state, local) is about $7 trillion per year.

So land would have to be taxed at about half of its value per year. That doesn't seem viable, even if all other taxes go away.

Maybe I've got a big error somewhere. Does government really annually take in 7 trillion / 300 million = $23,000 per human being of any age?

I bet the total value of all land in the US is actually quite a bit higher than $15 trillion.

Strategist says

The paid workers got their compensation. The American system that made it all happen should get their fair compensation. All these successful billionaires like my hero Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, and others would not have made it in any other country except America. America needs to get compensated, fair and simple, and it should be upon death so as not to interfere with the businesses they run.

What would you say to the people who object that that wealth is what remains after taxation when they were alive? Why should it get double taxed?

Maybe it is what we have to do to prevent hereditary aristocracy, but can it be justified?

rando says

Strategist says

The paid workers got their compensation. The American system that made it all happen should get their fair compensation. All these successful billionaires like my hero Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, and others would not have made it in any other country except America. America needs to get compensated, fair and simple, and it should be upon death so as not to interfere with the businesses they run.

What would you say to the people who object that that wealth is what remains after taxation when they were alive? Why should it get double taxed?

Maybe it is what we have to do to prevent hereditary aristocracy, but can it be justified?

I see it in a different light. The tax that was paid is a rate everyone pays. But what made you worth billions is what the American system made it possible, which makes it a partner in the wealth created. I don't believe all of it should be passed on to the heirs who did nothing. Yes, i am a true believer in capitalism as an incentive to create wealth, but once you go to heaven, please pay the system that made it all possible.

I saw a different version of this on Reddit yesterday. Looking for it.

Yeah here. Maybe same guy. Get's to the point more directly.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/61vf1e/the_secret_of_success_from_the_perspective_of_the/

Ironman says

Strategist says

Yes, i am a true believer in capitalism as an incentive to create wealth, but once you go to heaven, please pay the system that made it all possible.

A better plan is to spend it all and have a zero balance when you "check out".

ha ha ha
A negative balance. That's my vile plan if i don't die rich. Screw the banks.
It's only if i have more than $10 million, that i should have to pay the death tax.

Ironman says

rando says

But otoh, they really didn't do it entirely alone.

Oh No, now you sound like Obama, "You didn't build that".

-

Good comic addressing that, also from the reddit thread.

https://digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/

Ironman says

Too many losers on this site. They whine, they complain, call for revolution, blame others, and think they got screwed even though they contributed nothing.

Ironman says

Strategist says

A negative balance. That's my vile plan if i don't die rich. Screw the banks.

make sure you max out the credit cards too before you check out.

he he he
Those stupid banks keep trying to get me to take their money with zero interest. If I go broke, i will. They can kiss my ass when i refuse to pay.

errc says

My property was just subjected to a county-wide revaluation. The Land Value doubled. Somehow, the value of the building increased as well, just by aging in the elements for another dozen years. Strange

Government is pretty good at helping themselves to our money, they are never good at doing something with it though in return.

Hard work helps, but it's not everything. Knowing right people is more important, because no idea has a chance to succeed without money behind it.

All the rich who I know are are either: (1) talented people who got lucky; or (2) beneficiaries of family business or inheritance.

With family wealth behind, one can afford to take risks, which opens up the possibility to strike big.

Hard work is neither necessary nor sufficient.

Ironman says

The Poor don't believe in using Abilities, Education or Hard Work to get ahead. Another proof that they want something for nothing or want wealth taken away from the people who do those activities.... There's another name for those people: Bernie voters.

Most of my colleagues were Bernie voters. All of them have abilities, education, and work pretty hard.

Ironman says

The Poor don't believe in using Abilities, Education or Hard Work to get ahead.

Is it that ? Or is it that they explain their not being rich that they didn't cheat and they didn't have the connections or start up capital.

I agree that they would have been better off to believe that education and hard work is the ticket. But it may be their belief about cheating (and start up capital) is more about how they think others got rich rather than how they think they will or could.

By the way, for a while now America has no longer had the upward mobility that it once did. Several other countries beat us in that regard now.

Patrick says

Differing views on how people get to be rich  

What people think reality is does not necessarily reflect what reality is.

Ironman says

Fucking White Male says

errc says

The fact is, the majority of Rich people are born ricH.

This seems to be a crucial point in this thread. So prove it.

Good luck having him support any of his assertions with proof.

Of the mega rich, around 30-40% inherited and the rest of course had a HUGE leg up in life. That's around 400 people.

As to the rest, it looks like 80-85% are self made.

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/real-1-percent

Considering the very incorrect suppositions, this thread is nearly worthless.

And the Koreans, Cubans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Armenian, Iranian, Israeli and African first generation immigrants would all like to have a word with you.

Dan8267 says

Patrick says

Differing views on how people get to be rich  

What people think reality is does not necessarily reflect what reality is.

Exactly.

marcus says

Ironman says

The Poor don't believe in using Abilities, Education or Hard Work to get ahead.

Is it that ? Or is it that they explain their not being rich that they didn't cheat and they didn't have the connections or start up capital.

I agree that they would have been better off to believe that education and hard work is the ticket. But it may be their belief about cheating (and start up capital) is more about how they think others got rich rather than how they think they will or could.

By the way, for a while now America has no longer had the upward mobility that it once did. Several other countries beat us in that regard now.

Why do you despise first generation immigrants Marcus?

FP says

Ironman says

The Poor don't believe in using Abilities, Education or Hard Work to get ahead. Another proof that they want something for nothing or want wealth taken away from the people who do those activities.... There's another name for those people: Bernie voters.

Most of my colleagues .... work pretty hard.

Bullshit.

FP says

All the rich who I know are are either: (1) talented people who got lucky; or (2) beneficiaries of family business or inheritance.

With family wealth behind, one can afford to take risks, which opens up the possibility to strike big.

You don't know nearly enough people in nearly enough circles.

Fucking White Male says

And the Koreans, Cubans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Armenian, Iranian, Israeli and African first generation immigrants would all like to have a word with you.

Indians as well, who are prob higher paid on average than the rest in above list.

Fucking White Male says

Why do you despise first generation immigrants Marcus?

Because he's black and they(esp Africans) make people like him look bad.

Fucking White Male says

Why do you despise first generation immigrants Marcus?

Right. You're the one that voted for Trump.

I agree that the super rich need to be taxed way more. Billionaires have way too much power, and no one needs even close to that much money.

I think most anyone can make 6 figures and live an awesome life through hard work and good decisions, so the poor are delusional.