patrick.net

@Ironman, don't go having a midnight meltdown just because the truth hurts your feelings.

You didn't actually think you were rich and successful, did you? Oh dear...

errc says

I don't know, this country has an awful lot of valuable land.

There's something like $15 trillion in land values: https://patrick.net/1304077/2017-03-18-us-government-budget-vs-various-other-large-numbers

All government revenue (fed, state, local) is about $7 trillion per year.

So land would have to be taxed at about half of its value per year. That doesn't seem viable, even if all other taxes go away.

Maybe I've got a big error somewhere. Does government really annually take in 7 trillion / 300 million = $23,000 per human being of any age?

I bet the total value of all land in the US is actually quite a bit higher than $15 trillion.

Strategist says

The paid workers got their compensation. The American system that made it all happen should get their fair compensation. All these successful billionaires like my hero Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, and others would not have made it in any other country except America. America needs to get compensated, fair and simple, and it should be upon death so as not to interfere with the businesses they run.

What would you say to the people who object that that wealth is what remains after taxation when they were alive? Why should it get double taxed?

Maybe it is what we have to do to prevent hereditary aristocracy, but can it be justified?

rando says

Strategist says

The paid workers got their compensation. The American system that made it all happen should get their fair compensation. All these successful billionaires like my hero Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, and others would not have made it in any other country except America. America needs to get compensated, fair and simple, and it should be upon death so as not to interfere with the businesses they run.

What would you say to the people who object that that wealth is what remains after taxation when they were alive? Why should it get double taxed?

Maybe it is what we have to do to prevent hereditary aristocracy, but can it be justified?

I see it in a different light. The tax that was paid is a rate everyone pays. But what made you worth billions is what the American system made it possible, which makes it a partner in the wealth created. I don't believe all of it should be passed on to the heirs who did nothing. Yes, i am a true believer in capitalism as an incentive to create wealth, but once you go to heaven, please pay the system that made it all possible.

I saw a different version of this on Reddit yesterday. Looking for it.

Yeah here. Maybe same guy. Get's to the point more directly.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/61vf1e/the_secret_of_success_from_the_perspective_of_the/

Ironman says

Strategist says

Yes, i am a true believer in capitalism as an incentive to create wealth, but once you go to heaven, please pay the system that made it all possible.

A better plan is to spend it all and have a zero balance when you "check out".

ha ha ha
A negative balance. That's my vile plan if i don't die rich. Screw the banks.
It's only if i have more than $10 million, that i should have to pay the death tax.

Ironman says

rando says

But otoh, they really didn't do it entirely alone.

Oh No, now you sound like Obama, "You didn't build that".

-

Good comic addressing that, also from the reddit thread.

https://digitalsynopsis.com/inspiration/privileged-kids-on-a-plate-pencilsword-toby-morris/

Ironman says

Too many losers on this site. They whine, they complain, call for revolution, blame others, and think they got screwed even though they contributed nothing.

Ironman says

Strategist says

A negative balance. That's my vile plan if i don't die rich. Screw the banks.

make sure you max out the credit cards too before you check out.

he he he
Those stupid banks keep trying to get me to take their money with zero interest. If I go broke, i will. They can kiss my ass when i refuse to pay.

errc says

My property was just subjected to a county-wide revaluation. The Land Value doubled. Somehow, the value of the building increased as well, just by aging in the elements for another dozen years. Strange

Government is pretty good at helping themselves to our money, they are never good at doing something with it though in return.

Hard work helps, but it's not everything. Knowing right people is more important, because no idea has a chance to succeed without money behind it.

All the rich who I know are are either: (1) talented people who got lucky; or (2) beneficiaries of family business or inheritance.

With family wealth behind, one can afford to take risks, which opens up the possibility to strike big.

Hard work is neither necessary nor sufficient.

Ironman says

The Poor don't believe in using Abilities, Education or Hard Work to get ahead. Another proof that they want something for nothing or want wealth taken away from the people who do those activities.... There's another name for those people: Bernie voters.

Most of my colleagues were Bernie voters. All of them have abilities, education, and work pretty hard.

Ironman says

The Poor don't believe in using Abilities, Education or Hard Work to get ahead.

Is it that ? Or is it that they explain their not being rich that they didn't cheat and they didn't have the connections or start up capital.

I agree that they would have been better off to believe that education and hard work is the ticket. But it may be their belief about cheating (and start up capital) is more about how they think others got rich rather than how they think they will or could.

By the way, for a while now America has no longer had the upward mobility that it once did. Several other countries beat us in that regard now.

Patrick says

Differing views on how people get to be rich  

What people think reality is does not necessarily reflect what reality is.

Ironman says

Fucking White Male says

errc says

The fact is, the majority of Rich people are born ricH.

This seems to be a crucial point in this thread. So prove it.

Good luck having him support any of his assertions with proof.

Of the mega rich, around 30-40% inherited and the rest of course had a HUGE leg up in life. That's around 400 people.

As to the rest, it looks like 80-85% are self made.

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/real-1-percent

Considering the very incorrect suppositions, this thread is nearly worthless.

And the Koreans, Cubans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Armenian, Iranian, Israeli and African first generation immigrants would all like to have a word with you.

Dan8267 says

Patrick says

Differing views on how people get to be rich  

What people think reality is does not necessarily reflect what reality is.

Exactly.

marcus says

Ironman says

The Poor don't believe in using Abilities, Education or Hard Work to get ahead.

Is it that ? Or is it that they explain their not being rich that they didn't cheat and they didn't have the connections or start up capital.

I agree that they would have been better off to believe that education and hard work is the ticket. But it may be their belief about cheating (and start up capital) is more about how they think others got rich rather than how they think they will or could.

By the way, for a while now America has no longer had the upward mobility that it once did. Several other countries beat us in that regard now.

Why do you despise first generation immigrants Marcus?

FP says

Ironman says

The Poor don't believe in using Abilities, Education or Hard Work to get ahead. Another proof that they want something for nothing or want wealth taken away from the people who do those activities.... There's another name for those people: Bernie voters.

Most of my colleagues .... work pretty hard.

Bullshit.

FP says

All the rich who I know are are either: (1) talented people who got lucky; or (2) beneficiaries of family business or inheritance.

With family wealth behind, one can afford to take risks, which opens up the possibility to strike big.

You don't know nearly enough people in nearly enough circles.

Fucking White Male says

And the Koreans, Cubans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Armenian, Iranian, Israeli and African first generation immigrants would all like to have a word with you.

Indians as well, who are prob higher paid on average than the rest in above list.

Fucking White Male says

Why do you despise first generation immigrants Marcus?

Because he's black and they(esp Africans) make people like him look bad.

Fucking White Male says

Why do you despise first generation immigrants Marcus?

Right. You're the one that voted for Trump.

I agree that the super rich need to be taxed way more. Billionaires have way too much power, and no one needs even close to that much money.

I think most anyone can make 6 figures and live an awesome life through hard work and good decisions, so the poor are delusional.

marcus says

Fucking White Male says

Why do you despise first generation immigrants Marcus?

Right. You're the one that voted for Trump.

What does that have to do with first generation immigrants Marcus? AFAIK, NO ONE has proposed reducing the level of immigrants the US allows.

Fwiw, if you ever crawled out of your hole and visited the garment district or the fashion district or played a few hands at Commerce Casino, or ate at some of the fantastic Chinese places in SGV or Vietnamese places in Westminster, you might meet some very successful first generation immigrants. Seems I live a much more diverse life than you.

marcus says

I agree that they would have been better off to believe that education and hard work is the ticket. But it may be their belief about cheating (and start up capital) is more about how they think others got rich rather than how they think they will or could.

Horrible thinking. A recipe to always be a loser.

marcus says

By the way, for a while now America has no longer had the upward mobility that it once did. Several other countries beat us in that regard now.

Certainly not for the ones who don't value education and hard work. For others, there are lots of opportunities. Look at Silicon Valley and tell me what you see.

Fucking White Male says

You don't know nearly enough people in nearly enough circles.

enough for what?

Strategist says

Look at Silicon Valley and tell me what you see.

Many talented, middle class people. Those among them who make it big, it's usually due to a lucky break.

Education, talent and work can get you comfortable middle class lifestyle, which can eventually lead to wealth accumulation (on the order of several million) after years of saving and investing. How many years depends on family situation.

Moving from poor to middle class is possible with a lot of work, but it is a lot harder than those who have never been poor believe. This by definition means that only few will succeed.

Ironman says

FP says

Moving from poor to middle class is possible with a lot of work,

FP says

Hard work is neither necessary nor sufficient.

Do you contradict yourself regularly???

There is no contradiction here. Because there are ways to become rich which do not require hard work, hard work is not a necessary condition.

Ironman says

I don't think Lottery winners were included in the chart in the OP.

Fortune/good luck was.

Fucking White Male says

Of the mega rich, around 30-40% inherited and the rest of course had a HUGE leg up in life. That's around 400 people.

As to the rest, it looks like 80-85% are self made.

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/real-1-percent

Considering the very incorrect suppositions, this thread is nearly worthless.

And the Koreans, Cubans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Armenian, Iranian, Israeli and African first generation immigrants would all like to have a word with you.

This article is bulls***. He talks about the 1% and how they are lawyers, doctors, sports figures, etc. and how they all have worked hard for their money. And yes, some of the 1% have worked hard to varying degrees. But these 1% are not the uber rich, the elite, the 0.1% who are in a completely different league from the rest of the measly millionaires. The author does not address how the 0.1% got their money, but moves into explaining how the uber rich ARE paying their federal taxes and goes on to use that same damn "job creation" justification of why the extremely rich need to stay extremely wealthy. Who else would give the poor people a job? WTF? What a manipulative commentary!

http://www.salon.com/2016/04/14/the_1_percent_are_the_real_villains_what_americans_dont_understand_about_income_inequality_partner/

Indiana Jones says

Fucking White Male says

Of the mega rich, around 30-40% inherited and the rest of course had a HUGE leg up in life. That's around 400 people.

As to the rest, it looks like 80-85% are self made.

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/real-1-percent

Considering the very incorrect suppositions, this thread is nearly worthless.

And the Koreans, Cubans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Armenian, Iranian, Israeli and African first generation immigrants would all like to have a word with you.

This article is bulls***. He talks about the 1% and how they are lawyers, doctors, sports figures, etc. and how they all have worked hard for their money. And yes, some of the 1% have worked hard to varying degrees. But these 1% are not the uber rich, the elite, the 0.1% who are in a comp...

The OP was regarding views on how people got rich as viewed by people of varying means. The article I linked to at least referenced a study into the true reasons vs perceptions. As such I don't really understand the point you are trying to make nor has anyone linked an article supporting the idea that most of the rich inherited the money, an opinion shared by several posters in this thread and backed with not one relevant fact.

Fucking White Male says

Seems I live a much more diverse life than you.

Certainly not if you define it that way. You don't think that a lot of the first generation immigrants you run into at the commerce or that work at asian restaurants in SGV are undocumented ? Really ?

marcus says

Fucking White Male says

Seems I live a much more diverse life than you.

Certainly not if you define it that way. You don't think that a lot of the first generation immigrants you run into at the commerce or that work at asian restaurants in SGV are undocumented ? Really ?

lol that's your counter? Ok then I agree with you. They should get deported too!

Here is a good read about the differences within the 1% from an investing manager from 2011. He breaks down the differences between the upper and lower halves of the 1%. The second link is the 2014 update

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/investment_manager.html

The Lower Half of the Top 1%

The 99th to 99.5th percentiles largely include physicians, attorneys, upper middle management, and small business people who have done well...

The Upper Half of the Top 1%

Membership in this elite group is likely to come from being involved in some aspect of the financial services or banking industry, real estate development involved with those industries, or government contracting...The higher we go up into the top 0.5% the more likely it is that their wealth is in some way tied to the investment industry and borrowed money than from personally selling goods or services or labor as do most in the bottom 99.5%. They are much more likely to have built their net worth from stock options and capital gains in stocks and real estate and private business sales, not from income which is taxed at a much higher rate. These opportunities are largely unavailable to the bottom 99.5%.

...Folks in the top 0.1% come from many backgrounds but it's infrequent to meet one whose wealth wasn't acquired through direct or indirect participation in the financial and banking industries....The picture is clear; entry into the top 0.5% and, particularly, the top 0.1% is usually the result of some association with the financial industry and its creations. I find it questionable as to whether the majority in this group actually adds value or simply diverts value from the US economy and business into its pockets and the pockets of the uber-wealthy who hire them...

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/investment_manager_2014.html

...Thus, an average physician — while doing very well by most people's standards — is unlikely to earn or accumulate enough to place him or her in the top 1% by income or net worth at the end of their career. Opportunity for most Americans, even physicians, is decreasing, even while net worth and income accelerate for those at the very top of the system. If an average physician today is unlikely to make it into the top 1% (Piketty and Saez's end-of-2012 data show that the 1% income line is crossed with an income of $396k per year), then it seems pretty clear that crossling that line via income, savings, and investments will be impossible for nearly every American in the future."

Fucking White Male says

nor has anyone linked an article supporting the idea that most of the rich inherited the money, an opinion shared by several posters in this thread and backed with not one relevant fact.

Here, I did your research for you.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/49167533

The Forbes list is an annual ode to the American dream. The roster of richest Americans is filled with stories of entrepreneurs who started with little (or at least not a lot) and built a business and personal fortune through hard work, good ideas and perfect timing.

Recent additions include Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook and Sara Blakely, the founder of Spanx.

But a new report claims that the story of self-made wealth on the Forbes list is just that – a story. The report, from the left-leaning United for a Fair Economy, says that 40 percent of the Forbes 400 richest Americans inherited a “sizeable asset from a spouse or family member.”

Forbes says that 30 percent of the Forbes 400 members inherited their wealth and the remaining 70 percent are entirely “self-made.”

“The truth is that Americans have never had an equal opportunity to become wealthy. Rather than concocting fables about our ‘opportunity society,’ the editors of Forbes should be examining the birthright privileges enjoyed by many of those on the list,” the report stated.

On its face, the question of whether a couple dozen billionaires made or inherited their wealth seems trivial. And even by United for a Fair Economy's calculations, the number of "self-made" rich is rising. In 1997, the group calculated that 50 percent of the Forbes list inherited all or part of their fortune.

But the question of what counts as “self-made” is now in the political spotlight after President Barack Obama’s “you didn’t build that” comments and attacks on Mitt Romney’s family privilege.

United for a Fair Economy breaks down the Forbes list using a baseball analogy. It says 35 percent of the list was born in the “batter’s box,” with a lower-middle class or middle-class background.

That includes people like Larry Ellison of Oracle , who was born in a lower-middle class part of Chicago. It also includes Harold Hamm, a one-time gas-station attendant who built an oil and gas empire.

The report says 22 percent of the list were born on first base: they came from a comfortable but not rich background and might have received some start-up capital from a family member. This group includes Mark Zuckerberg and hedge funder Louis Bacon, who started Moore Capital Management with help from a small inheritence.

Only 11.5 percent were born on second base, the report says. Second base is defined as people who inherited a medium sized company or more than $1 million or got “substantial” start-up capital from a business or family member.

This group includes Donald Trump, who built on his father’s real-estate business, and Donald Schneider who inherited the Schneider International trucking company.

The report says 7 percent were born on third base, inheriting more than $50 million in wealth or a big company. The report includes Charles Koch and Charles Butt on third base.

The report says 21 percent were born on home plate, inheriting enough money to make the list. The home-basers include Forrest Mars Jr. and Bill Marriott. The report listed 3.25 percent as “undetermined,” meaning there was insufficient information on their financial background.

How do you define “self-made” wealth? Can you inherit your dad’s company and still be self-made?

http://www.cnbc.com/2014/10/03/two-thirds-of-billionaires-made-it-themselves.html?view=story&%24DEVICE%24=native-android-tablet

Forbes has come out with a "self-made score" for its billionaires.

Here is Forbes' scoring system and billionaire examples for each score.

Inherited fortune, but not working to increase it: Laurene Powell Jobs
Inherited fortune, and has a role managing it: Forrest Mars Jr.
Inherited fortune, and helping to increase it marginally: Penny Pritzker
Inherited fortune, and increasing it in a meaningful way: Henry Ross Perot Jr.
Inherited small- or medium-size business, and made it into a 10-digit fortune: Donald Trump
Hired or hands-off investor, who didn't create the business: Meg Whitman
Self-made, who got a head start from wealthy parents and moneyed background: Rupert Murdoch
Self-made, who came from a middle- or upper-middle-class background: Mark Zuckerberg
Self-made, who came from a largely working-class background; rose from little to nothing: Eddie Lampert
Self-made, who not only grew up poor, but also overcame significant obstacles: Oprah Winfrey

"The truth is that Americans have never had an equal opportunity to become wealthy," the report said. "Rather than concocting fables about our 'opportunity society,' the editors of Forbes should be examining the birthright privileges enjoyed by many of those on the list."

Unprecedented government bailouts during the 2008-10 era enabled many to get rich or stay rich. TARP, QE, ZIRP, corrupt "robo-signing" settlements, HAMP, etc. Democrats declared they were "helping homeowners" when in fact they were helping bankers, landlords, and real estate developers. Almost nobody in commercial media pointed out that these programs were hurting Democrats' traditional constituencies, i.e. renters and savers. Prior to those interventions, Alan Greenspan had predicted that real estate prices would go "a lot lower," and they would have done so if the unprecedented interventions had not occurred. So, in that sense, the perception that connections and cheating enabled some few to preserve capital is correct.

Indiana Jones says

Inherited small- or medium-size business, and made it into a 10-digit fortune: Donald Trump

He has prospered, turning nine figures into probably ten, but I wonder how much of that resulted from the bailouts during 2008-10. Democrats pushed a fake news narrative claiming he had underperformed VOO, which didn't even exist at the time when at least one "journalist" wrote that he should have bought it. Democrats did not want to raise the issue of what would have happened to real estate prices (and thus his fortune) if the bailouts had not occurred. I suspect Democrats' unprecedented interventions to prop up real estate prices may have enabled Donald Trump to preserve much more of his capital than he could have otherwise, and thus enabled him to become President.

Indiana Jones, read my original postings and you'll see I already posted exactly what you did about the richest of the rich....That of the few hundred of the very wealthiest around 35-49% inherited the money and the rest certainly got a leg up.

So once again I do not understand the point you are making other than you are content to bitch about how much others have and don't care to explain how the other four million less rich got to be that way.