patrick.net

What about Muslim hate for non-Muslims, as instructed on nearly every page of the Koran?

Do you find it objectionable? If not, why not?

rando says

Do you find it objectionable?

Of course. But I find the Christian crusades against "heretics" just as objectionable. Faith is bad because it's mutually exclusive with reason. Specific mythology does not matter. The willingness to engage in delusion does matter.

rando says

Do you find it objectionable?

I don't know Patick. Is it that you really don't have any idea what my point of view is ?

Of course the fundamentalists are bad, the radical terrorist types that use it as an excuse for violence are evil.

I just don't believe that returning hate for hate is the answer, especially if it is returned to the generalized majority for the crimes of a tiny minority. Hasn't history proven this ? Maybe there was a logical reason for Jesus suggesting that we should turn the other cheek. Maybe it's basically game theory.

Why do I have to explain this again. You know. You're not stupid. I believe that growing the moderate part of Islam may in the long run be more important than we can possibly imagine (versus walling them off until they learn ?) This happens by bringing Muslims in to the west. It might not be the only reason Europeans are doing it. They have a demographic crisis - not reproducing enough to keep the economy going strong. But that's another story. We are fortunate to have Mexico. But again, that's another story.

I don't embrace Muslim ideology as moron_k suggested liberals do above. That's stupid. Maybe you guys just can't handle things not being black and white ?

Dan8267 says

Specific mythology does not matter.

Specific instructions, such as "Kill the unbelievers where ever you find them" do actually matter a lot though.

The Koran teaches hate for non-Muslims from start to finish. That's the core message.

Christianity's core message is quite the opposite, and that does have an influence on believers. Believe it or not, lol.

SO you're saying religious war is good ? Our religion is better than your religion, nya nya nya nya nya.

Not at all.

I'm saying that Islam is exceptionally violent, far beyond any other religion, and we should be honest about that fact because it has real consequences.

marcus says

SO you're saying religious war is good ? Our religion is better than your religion,

We are a secular society. Islam wants us subjugated or dead.

What's objectionable is that people believe shit that is not supported by any proof.
Which one of the gods do I worship?
I've lately had Bigfoots visiting but they stay mostly in the underbrush at the edge of the woods.
I'm glad that the UFOs that come around are always fixed for silent running. They always wave.
I will try to be a better boy so Santa will leave me SOMETHING!
The Easter Bunny never leaves me the big,solid chocolate bunny.
Suck it Tooth Fairy! All you left me for my tooth was a stinkin' dime.

This whole society tells lies & continually brainwashes their offspring.
Now Johnny! Don't tell fibs like all the lying adults.
How many times have you lied or talked about crap you have no means of proving?
You do so enjoy bumping your gums.

Homework this weekend: An essay on critical thinking.

Goran_K says

Islam has held an entire region of 1.2 billion people back in the medieval era while the entire world has moved on

Geography isn't your strong point is it? Only 20% of muslims live in the middle east and north africa. The middle east only has 200 million people total, including non muslims.

bob2356 says

Geography isn't your strong point is it? Only 20% of muslims live in the middle east and north africa. The middle east only has 200 million people total, including non muslims.

Did Goran mention the Middle East at all? I don't think so.

Or are you claiming he should consider Pakistan, for example, as a successful country?

rando says

I'm saying that Islam is exceptionally violent, far beyond any other religion, and we should be honest about that fact because it has real consequences.

Do you want to point out all the exceptional violence in the 80% of the muslims not living in the middle east? You've been called out on this before and responded with nothing but crickets chirping.

Islam in the middle east is a trojan horse for seeking power and money just like christianity was for almost 2 millennia. Centers for easy grabbing of wealth in the name of religion (crusades, conquistadors, dum diversas, india, africa, etc.) don't exist in the christian world any more. They do in the middle east with everyone trying to control oil wealth and power.

Maybe some people here should consider thinking instead of regurgitating mindless dogma.

rando says

Did Goran mention the Middle East at all? I don't think so.

Goran_K says

Islam has held an entire region of 1.2 billion people back in the medieval era while the entire world has moved on

Which region do you suppose he was talking about then?

rando says

Or are you claiming he should consider Pakistan, for example, as a successful country?

There are scores of countries that are far less successful than Pakistan that have virtually no muslims. How did that happen?

Lots of people die from things other than cancer. So by your logic, cancer is not bad.

bob2356 says

Do you want to point out all the exceptional violence in the 80% of the muslims not living in the middle east?

Sure, here you go:

Other Recent "Misunderstandings of Islam"
2017.08.03 (Myanmar) Three woman are among six Buddhists hacked to death by Muslim 'insurgents'
2017.08.03 (Afghanistan) Two children are among three civilians disassembled by Islamic bombers.
2017.08.02 (Nigeria) Boko Haram storm a village, shooting and beheading seven innocents.
2017.08.02 (Kenya) Islamists fire on a bus along the highway, killing three passengers.
2017.08.01 (Afghanistan) A suicide bomber detonates at a Shiite mosque, sending thirty-two worshippers straight to Allah.

from http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Human competition creates winners and losers in both physical and psychological sense.
Those who can NOT face the pain will start to develope religion to ease the pain.
There is nothing wrong with any form of belief, be it any form of religion or isms.
But if any one uses violent forces to others, let's do it on the battle field.
Religion and violence is seemingly related, but they are in fact orthogonal. In other words, true, Islam is violent, and so did the kings and slave owners and even businesses producing weapons and eager to sell them for profit. People is suit could be more violent, although you do not see blood on their hands.
just let people believe what ever they want, and if anyone starts to use violence, let's spill blood until it stops.

rando says

bob2356 says

Do you want to point out all the exceptional violence in the 80% of the muslims not living in the middle east?

Sure, here you go

Also more than a million non-Muslims slaughtered in Bangladesh, FKA East Pakistan, by the Pakistani government and Islamic militias. Pakistan remains a terrorist state, and a failed state totally dependent on American and Saudi "aid". That "aid" enables Pakistan to lead a "Muslim world plan" against blasphemy, including capital punishment for blasphemy on FB, with FB cooperating against its own users enabling Pakistan to impose legally the death penalty. Saudis paid Pakistan to hide OBL from us, while Pakistan was also taking "aid" $$$ from us to help find him, because Allah is the "best deceiver." The only way Pakistan can actually be called more successful than "scores of countries" is in the deception and exploitation of the USA, including the development of nuclear weapons with technical help from North Korea and $$$ from the USA and then using those weapons to blackmail further $$$ from the USA.

marcus says

SO you're saying religious war is good ?

Patrick has never said that. Islam says that. By defending Islam, YOU are defending a doctrine that commands religious war. You seem to believe in NAMALT, i.e. not all Muslims join the violent jihadis (even though huge numbers of Muslims support them, and in most countries that have Muslim majorities, most Muslims demand Sharia). That's like saying not all Nazis joined the Luftwaffe, therefore you consider Nazis AOK and support appeasement (e.g. pay Pakistan to execute "moderately" blasphemers as per Sharia), because it makes you feel good. If you lived in San Barnardino and got injured by jihadis, you might feel differently, because your feelings are entirely subjective. Islam says what it says and does what it does, those are objective facts that have nothing to do with how you feel or your disingenuous trolling comments.

marcus says

Maybe you guys just can't handle things not being black and white ?

But why aren't things black and white--Christianity is good, Islam is bad? This is a microcosm of the philosophy that has plagued Europe over the past 30 or so years, the rejection of its own historical culture, freedoms, traditions, music, art work, literature, beautiful cathedrals inspired by Christianity, none of them seem of any value anymore, in fact many find them deplorable and part of a huge plot against the rest of the human race, not worth fighting for or preserving. This attitude is the one that has opened the flood gates to those who would plunder what the last 1,000 or so years has produced because its present beneficiaries don't value it. A book in this context is the current one by Douglas Murray, "The Strange Death of Europe":

www.youtube.com/embed/wsFBjKuRy4M

rando says

Lots of people die from things other than cancer. So by your logic, cancer is not bad.

by your logic cancer kills people so everything that kills people is cancer.

P N Dr Lo R says

the rejection of its own historical culture, freedoms, traditions, music, art work, literature, beautiful cathedrals inspired by Christianity, none of them seem of any value anymore

I agree with this. Although it's not really being rejected. Some will try to reject it, just as some will try to blame white males for their own failures. I don't understand taking these things personally. I'm more likely to react to those who over react to rhetoric demonizing white males. It becomes an excuse for racism. Does anyone really think that Trumps campaign against affirmative action at colleges is anything other than him desperately holding on to his 35% of the electorate ? Look at the timing. (Same with trannies in the military.) He may be right to an extent about the reverse racism inherent with quotas. But it's also true that many groups were excluded from education opportunities in recent centuries. And that forcing the issue brings more minorities into the middle and upper middle class in the future - as the descendants of those benefiting in the present.

If only Trump had the balls to do something popular that was also substantive - like bringing about single payer. An extreme majority of Americans would support this. (Note: liberals aren't like the sorry ass republicans. If Trump got behind single payer - democrats would love it - even if it is coming from Trump and he gets credit for it).

Back to your point. European and American culture isn't going away. The thing that threatens us the most is inequality. That's what will potentially destroy the legacy of European and Christian culture.

rando says

Other Recent "Misunderstandings of Islam"

2017.08.03 (Myanmar) Three woman are among six Buddhists hacked to death by Muslim 'insurgents'

2017.08.03 (Afghanistan) Two children are among three civilians disassembled by Islamic bombers.

2017.08.02 (Nigeria) Boko Haram storm a village, shooting and beheading seven innocents.

2017.08.02 (Kenya) Islamists fire on a bus along the highway, killing three passengers.

2017.08.01 (Afghanistan) A suicide bomber detonates at a Shiite mosque, sending thirty-two worshippers straight to Allah.

and so what? a lot more people get killed every day from drug misunderstandings than islamic misunderstandings. There are people getting shot,bombed,knifed all over the world every day in conflicts of every description. There are something like 75 groups in active conflict in DRC right now committing atrocities every day and none of them are muslim.

Maybe going after the problem of saudi financed, taught, and promoted terrorism rather than ranting and raving islam is bad would be a more productive approach. Pretty unlikely with presidents sucking face with the saudi's. Take the money and teaching away and the problem will go away.

One would think someone named patrick would appreciate the irony in that fact that everything he says about muslim immigrants is exactly what was said 100 years ago about the irish. Lazy, violent, criminal, followers of a violent world conquering religion. The KKK was almost non existent until the irish and italian immigration then experienced a tremendous resurgence to fight against catholics in america. I guess not though.

rando says

Or are you claiming he should consider Pakistan, for example, as a successful country?

We could ask why not Indonesia? Also a third world country, that is becoming more and more stridently Muslim with each passing day. Somalia or the northern part of Kenya or Nigeria, also not in the MENA? Bangladesh?

Actually, the Irish were more violent and more alcoholic than most other immigrant groups. But that had nothing to do with the teachings of Catholicism, and the Irish did not teach hate or kill at random.

Islam does teach hate, and Muslims do kill at random because of Islam, every day.

The Koran also explicitly enshrines and endorses Slavery and the enslavement of Non-Muslims; the New Testament does not explicitly encourage more Slaves nor for Christians to make non-Christians slaves.

30,000 terror deaths last year, and it's probably a huge undercount; think of all the isolated Afghan or Somali villages that get attacked, the Students of Islam kill some villagers and move on, never reported.

Funny how so many Secular Liberal Westerners, most of whom never read the Koran and certainly not in Arabic, whose formal education on the subject is perhaps a few hours as a small segment of a college survey course, or worse, an apologist course on TV or via Corporate/Government HR Training, are telling people who spend hours and hours reading and memorizing the Koran, listening to Tapes of PhD-equivalent Imams who are completely conversant in Classic Arabic and went to the Greatest, Most Prestigious Schools in the Muslim World, what Islam "Really Means".

P N Dr Lo R says

This is a microcosm of the philosophy that has plagued Europe over the past 30 or so years, the rejection of its own historical culture, freedoms, traditions, music, art work, literature, beautiful cathedrals inspired by Christianity, none of them seem of any value anymore, in fact many find them deplorable and part of a huge plot against the rest of the human race, not worth fighting for or preserving. This attitude is the one that has opened the flood gates to those who would plunder what the last 1,000 or so years has produced because its present beneficiaries don't value it

Plagued? Floodgates? Plunder? Deplorable? Hyperbole much? Where is this quoted from anyway?

rando says

But that had nothing to do with the teachings of Catholicism, and the Irish did not teach hate or kill at random.

You've never heard of Óglaigh na hÉireann. That's surprising.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Funny how so many Secular Liberal Westerners, most of whom never read the Koran and certainly not in Arabic

You've read the Koran in Arabic?

marcus says

If only Trump had the balls to do something popular that was also substantive - like bringing about single payer. An extreme majority of Americans would support this.

I don't know that most Republicans would support it, but it would be a major accomplishment -- if it also limits medical costs. If costs are allowed to remain arbitrarily high and simply pushed onto taxpayers, we're pretty much back where we started.

The key is to contain costs.

The first step is to require every provider to publish their real medical price lists online. Second step is for providers to actually charge everyone the same for the same service. Third step is to require providers to print out a complete bill with those prices, in advance of all non-emergency service, so that patients can shop around. If Trump could get that done, he would have done far more than Obama.

rando says

The first step is to require every provider to publish their real medical price lists online.

Yeah, I don't really get this.

For one thing, medical care is expensive, so publishing price lists might scare people that need care away from taking care of what they need to. Also, it's understood that doctors will sometimes charge a different price to those without insurance than those who have it.

I would keep my prescription far more general.

1) Take the profit motive out of medicine where possible.

2) Use the fact that we are the very last first world country to have a public health system to do some serious research and implement the best elements of what other countries do, while preserving the opportunities for our plutocrats to get the cutting edge "money is no object" medical care that they want.

marcus says

I believe that growing the moderate part of Islam may in the long run be more important than we can possibly imagine

Does the moderate part of Islam use the moderate Koran, or the radical Koran that the terrorists know and love so well?

rando says

Does the moderate part of Islam use the moderate Koran, or the radical Koran that the terrorist know and love so well?

I don't know Patrick. Have them use the parts of the Koran that this guy uses.

www.youtube.com/embed/fqnoGDQ2i2k

How does someone "dislike" that ?

marcus says

How does someone "dislike" that ?

It's yet more of your NAMALT non-argument. If a tobacco shill points to George Burns smoking at 100, that doesn't negate the fact smoking kills. If you understood logic, you would know this.

curious2 says

If you understood logic, you would know this.

If you understood logic, you would know I wasn't making an argument. I was answering Patricks question - and pointing out a highly religious Islamic man that is a better man than I.

Any argument you infer from that is your own doing.

marcus says

I was answering Patricks question

No, that is a lie. He asked you a question about the Koran, which you failed to answer, probably because you have not read it. You can read it online, instead of merely trolling.

curious2 says

No, that is a lie.

Leave your emotions out of it. I was answering Patricks question. If you didn't understand my very clear answer, it doesn't make it a lie.

marcus says

rando says

Does the moderate part of Islam use the moderate Koran, or the radical Koran that the terrorist know and love so well?

I don't know Patrick. Have them use the parts of the Koran that this guy uses.

Implied in Patricks question is that the parts of the Koran that terrorist use to justify their hate and violence will be in the Koran that moderates use. Implied in my answer is that religious people use small fractions of ancient religious texts. And that moderate Muslims should focus on the better parts of the Koran (just as Christians don't focus on the ugliest parts of the bible). Obviously that guy in the video probably focuses on parts of the Koran that focus on values and behavior that I respect.

marcus says

I don't know Patrick. Have them use the parts of the Koran that this guy uses.

It would be interesting to know if he cares for non-Muslim children, or only Muslim ones. I don't see any children's names in the articles, so it's hard to tell.

Traditionally, Muslims give no charity or help to non-Muslims. And this makes sense, given the Koran's incessant disparagement of non-Muslims.

marcus says

I don't really get this.

For one thing, medical care is expensive, so publishing price lists might scare people that need care away from taking care of what they need to.

Medical care is expensive partly because people don't know what it costs and don't shop around.

Market forces can do a lot to bring prices down. This is why the medical establishment resists publishing prices.

rando says

Specific instructions, such as "Kill the unbelievers where ever you find them" do actually matter a lot though.

Then explains this. For 1800 years, Christians raped, pillaged, committed genocide, tortured, and killed the unbelievers by burning them at the stake. The instructions in the Bible haven't changed over the past 200 years. So either the instructions of Christianity aren't materially different from the instructions of Islam, or it's not the instructions that matter.

It is invalid to say that Christianity 2000 years after its inception is better than Islam 1470 years after its inception, therefore Christianity is inherently better than Islam or Christianity is better than Islam because the former's teachings are better than the latter's. The teachings of the Bible have changed no more in the past 1000 years than the teachings of the Quran.

Also, you really should be comparing the two family of religions at the same point in their development. So you should be comparing Islam today with Christianity in 1470. Both come out completely barbaric.

So what has really changed in the Christian world over the past 400, and especially the past 200, years? It wasn't that new pages of the Bible were found. It wasn't the return of Jesus. It wasn't that the mythology or stories changed. No. The real answer is that over the past few centuries the power of Christian faith and Christian churches has diminished almost entirely. It used to be that a Christian's entire life revolved around the faith and the church. Today, with damn few exceptions, Christians only pay lip service to their faith, and then only because their social status in their community requires them to do so. Yes, the few nuts are dangerous because when elected they do things that compromise our safety like opposing climate change mitigation policies, but since Christianity is largely a joke in America and Europe today, it's not nearly as dangerous as it was.

It's not that Christianity is inherently less dangerous than Islam. History proves that it is absolutely as dangerous. It is only that faith has been all but extinguished from the western world. Yeah, you can tolerate any religion, including Islam, if the followers don't have real faith and don't act on their faith. It's still a bad thing, but it's a small evil. The danger is that faith once diminished can return with vigor. We saw this happen in the second half of the 20th century with Islam. It could also happen with Christianity, and if it does, you can expect Christians to return to their Medieval behavior. And then we'd be hearing about gays and atheists burned at the stake on a daily basis.

Patrick, I take it that you don't actually believe in the bullshit about Jesus being divine and rising from the dead. You seem to rational for that nonsense. So I have to ask, why defend Christianity at all? What is the up side to it? Do you really believe in the Useful Lie Hypothesis?