patrick.net

Hey, you guys keep claiming there is no such thing as an assault rifle, but want to use assault rifles in statistics. Sorry you can't have it both ways.

anon_ba2d2 says

Nope - not just an armed mere merchant ship. I am talking about the entire class of people who wanted a ship armed to the teeth - and had to become a sanctioned privateer to withstand a frigate attempting to "cross the T" and blow them out of the water.

Google "Letter of Marque"

In the War of 1812, privately armed and staffed American privateers were legendary, a major pain in the ass for Great Britain. Over 300 ships were captured by US Private Letters of Marque, owned and financed by wealthy Boston and Groton businessmen.

The "Prince de Neufchatel" was a famous US privately owned privateer that was armed to the teeth with 16 12-pounder cannon and armed mariners that operated in the War of 1812.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_de_Neufchatel

When a cop fatally shoots someone, democrats blame the cop. When a democrat shoots someone, democrats blame the gun.

bob2356 says

Hey, you guys keep claiming there is no such thing as an assault rifle, but want to use assault rifles in statistics. Sorry you can't have it both ways.

Which statistics would that be? The FBI?

anon_8f378 says

let's move on to discussing actual relevant issues and solutions.

Good idea:

Grim Statistics On Child Drownings.

350 children under the age of five drown in pools each year nationwide.

Among unintentional injuries, drowning is the second leading cause of death to this age group after motor vehicle accidents. In some Sunbelt states such as California, Florida and Arizona, drowning is the leading cause of accidental death to children under five.

Another 2,600 children are treated in hospital emergency rooms each year for near-drowning incidents. Some of these submersion accidents result in permanent brain damage.

http://www.momsteam.com/sports/swimming/safety/grim-statistics-on-child-drownings

We need to BAN swimming pools. No one needs a pool filled with water in their backyard.

More kids die from needless drowning than being killed by AR-15's.

Where's your concern about these children?

So, having a swimming pool in a household is something like 4.3 to 5.6 times as likely to lead to an accidental death as having a firearm, when we look at the numbers for all age groups. For children less than 15, the difference is more like 19 to 25 times as likely.

anon_cf6c6 says

anon_8f378 says

But since that is a lie, let's move on to discussing actual relevant issues and solutions.

Exactly, let's discuss what's relevant and provide solutions. Got any for this list?

The interesting thing about that list is that it shows society has a much higher tolarence for bad shit that happens where the relationship between cause and effect is well understood

Not so with things like a school shooting or other so called RANDOM acts of violence. Society has a much lower tolerance for these.

It is the randomness which also works to whip up the conservative crowd when the issue is terrorism. In other words "terrorism = omg ban Muslims" to a conservative works on the same mechanism "school shooting = omg ban guns" does to a liberal.

anon_0e666 says

The interesting thing about that list is that it shows society has a much higher tolarence for bad shit that happens where the relationship between cause and effect is well understood

Wrong.

Society has gotten use to many hundreds of thousands of deaths in that list because they happen so frequently. They've become desensitized. Does it make those deaths less important?

anon_0e666 says

Not so with things like a school shooting or other so called RANDOM acts of violence. Society has a much lower tolerance for these.

So society has a lower tolerance for something that happens rarely, and tolerates things that happen on a regular basis?

What's that truly say about society?

anon_0e666 says

In fairness the distinction between banning guns and "banning heart disease" or any such absurdity- gun deaths are unique in that many of them are intentional

anon_0e666 says

Except for maybe abortion - notice how every other class of things on that list that kill people are not intentional

Really??

Obesity isn't intentional?
Stuffing your face with triple cheese burgers isn't intentional?
Smoking isn't intentional?
Alcoholism isn't intentional?
Drunk driving isn't intentional?
Drug overdose isn't intentional?
Many of the others on that list are from the intentional items I just listed.

Not intentional? Really??

There are no words....

I think these threads on pat.net are a really good indication of how well propaganda works in the United States.

The NRA obviously knows how to appeal to a certain type of person--I'll give them that. They're actually using this tragedy to convince people that we need MORE guns in schools by arming teachers or adding God knows how many security guards.

Their bought and paid for Congressmen obviously spread the gospel, but it's amazing how many ordinary citizens fall for their propaganda as well.

anon_3b28c says

They're actually using this tragedy to convince people that we need MORE guns in schools by arming teachers or adding God knows how many security guards.

Yes, security guards are never at a public places. Totally unheard of.

Wait.., cops are always at public sports games, NASCAR tracks, major concerts, parades, political and government buildings and all other types of large public events.

But asking to put security guards in schools to protect thousands of students or training teachers in CCW.... NOPE, we can't have that.

There you go folks, Liberal Logic at it's best!!

anon_3b28c says

The NRA obviously knows how to appeal to a certain type of person--I'll give them that. They're actually using this tragedy to convince people that we need MORE guns in schools by arming teachers or adding God knows how many security guards.

There are like 4 - 5 million NRA members in the country but there are over 100 million gun owners in the country. Does that sound like the NRA has any type of leverage?

anon_3b28c says

I think these threads on pat.net are a really good indication of how well propaganda works in the United States.

Exactly.

You've bought the "guns need to be banned" Liberal narrative, hook, line and sinker!

anon_cf6c6 says

The interesting thing about that list is that it shows society has a much higher tolarence for bad shit that happens where the relationship between cause and effect is well understood

Wrong.

Society has gotten use to many hundreds of thousands of deaths in that list because they happen so frequently. They've become desensitized. Does it make those deaths less important?

Yes - like the case of old age, in many ways those deaths ARE less important. In all those cases we know that bad shit happens, so we do some things to minimize them, but like old age, they all get you in the end so who gives a shit. That isn't the case with gun violence. Like terrorism, gun violence is random, it is senseless, and often the victims are innocent.

Note, for what its worth, I personally don't think we need to change the gun laws, but if you want to have an honest intellectual discussion, you must understand the uniqueness of gun violence relative to the rest of the who gives a shit deaths on that chart.


anon_cf6c6 says

So society has a lower tolerance for something that happens rarely, and tolerates things that happen on a regular basis?

What's that truly say about society?

We value predictability, and we abhor unpredictability. No more no less.

anon_cf6c6 says

anon_0e666 says

In fairness the distinction between banning guns and "banning heart disease" or any such absurdity- gun deaths are unique in that many of them are intentional

anon_0e666 says

Except for maybe abortion - notice how every other class of things on that list that kill people are not intentional

Really??

Obesity isn't intentional?
Stuffing your face with triple cheese burgers isn't intentional?
Smoking isn't intentional?
Alcoholism isn't intentional?
Drunk driving isn't intentional?
Drug overdose isn't intentional?
Many of the others on that list are from the intentional items I just listed.

Not intentional? Really??

There are no words....

Yes - that is correct. Not a single one of those things is done with an intent to kill the person. Death is a consequence of obesity, not the intent, Death is the consequence of alcoholism, smoking or any similar vice, but not the intent.

Sniper says

There are like 4 - 5 million NRA members in the country but there are over 100 million gun owners in the country. Does that sound like the NRA has any type of leverage?

Putting up 54 million in NRA campaign contributions in 2016 might account for just a little bit of leverage.

Of course some people claim money doesn't affect elections or politicians votes. Even some right here on patnet.

Unlike the Brady Campaign, the NRA is made up of millions of members and their contributions.

How many members does the Brady Campaign have? Two Million? haha

Which organization represents a mass movement, and a democratic membership, and which one represents a steering committee financed from wealthy foundations ?

May Democracy prevail against Elite preference.

Regarding that graphic with death rates:
1) The numbers are bogus.
2) The number of murders by gun is not the total deaths due to guns. That figure is about 35K. There are an additional 75K wounded.
3) We do what we can about the other things on the list. For example:
a) Drunk driving is against the law, and that had a big impact lowering accident rates by drunk drivers.
b) There are tons of efforts to curb obesity, heart disease, cancer, tobacco use, medical errors, and stroke. Just scan down that list, and you will see that gun deaths are pretty unique in how little we do about them.

We do have police, who are there to keep the peace in general. But the police don't have the tools to lower gun violence (self directed, accidental, or homicidal). We need to make universal license requirements for gun ownership, and make it more difficult to renew and easier to revoke the license. People are blaming the FBI for not investigating this shooter in FL. Perhaps they dropped the ball by not investigating, but the obvious truth is that they were powerless to do anything. The guy had a right to own the gun, and there isn't anything that law enforcement can do about it.

bob2356 says

Of course some people claim money doesn't affect elections or politicians votes. Even some right here on patnet.

There are even some here that claim gun ownership in homes is down the last few decades.

anon_d06f9 says

Yes - like the case of old age, in many ways those deaths ARE less important.

Well, isn't that nice.

anon_d06f9 says

Like terrorism, gun violence is random, it is senseless, and often the victims are innocent.

anon_d06f9 says

We value predictability, and we abhor unpredictability. No more no less.

OK, how about this unpredictability concerning children?



When are you going to start protesting Flu deaths of innocent children? When do the protest marches start trying to ban the flu?

Are these children's deaths just as unimportant like old people?

Sniper says

anon_d06f9 says

Yes - like the case of old age, in many ways those deaths ARE less important.

Well, isn't that nice.

anon_d06f9 says

Like terrorism, gun violence is random, it is senseless, and often the victims are innocent.

anon_d06f9 says

We value predictability, and we abhor unpredictability. No more no less.

OK, how about this unpredictability concerning children?



When are you going to start protesting Flu deaths of innocent children? When do the protest marches start trying to ban the flu?<...

The flu is ENTIRELY predictable. Each fall we lose somewhere between 50 and 500 people to a disease which once killed 500,000 americans. Thus while no one will ever say it, we are entirely ok with losing a few hundred kids per year (tough shit for them) because its predictable and expected. We also rejoice that as a nation via hard work we were able to get the death rate of the innocent down to 1/1000 of what it once was - Hooray America!

The analogy would be what are we now doing to try and bring the gun deaths down from the thousands to the few dozen negligible deaths where we can again say - Hooray America! So while you personally dont seem interested in TRYING anything further to improve on that number, other people are. And if that means that I as a gun owner have to put up with more inconveniences, I see it a reasonable tradeoff for our society to make.

Sniper says

When are you going to start protesting Flu deaths of innocent children? When do the protest marches start trying to ban the flu?

People do speak out against idiots who refuse to get the flu vaccine, and who refuse to take common sense measures to lower infection rates. Trump has been defunding the CDC. He appointed Fitzgerald to run the CDC, and she resigned in disgrace after revealing that she was trading tobacco stocks while in a position where she was supposed to be reducing smoking. The CDC remains under the direction of an interim director, as he has not found a new head. People are already speaking out against these things.

If the flu had a truly devastating year, people would be protesting Trump's impotence and negligence in regard to this post. As it turns out, we are having a banner year for multiple shootings, so people are speaking out and protesting against Trump and the rest of the swamp being bought and paid for by the NRA/Russia joint venture.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

May Democracy prevail against Elite preference.

Amen. If only Democracy could overcome the $50MM+ in campaign donations from the NRA.

anon_8f378 says

Amen. If only Democracy could overcome the $50MM+ in campaign donations from the NRA.

The NRA is a private advocacy group of over 5 million citizens that gets $0 in Federal or State funding.

Seems like it's Democracy in action, not being overcome.

anon_cf6c6 says

There are even some here that claim gun ownership in homes is down the last few decades.

No there aren't. The percentage of households with guns is down 40%. The guns per household has doubled. Less of the population owns guns but the ones that do own a lot more of them. Numbers matter.

Nice try sniper.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Which organization represents a mass movement, and a democratic membership, and which one represents a steering committee financed from wealthy foundations ?

Yes tell us which is financed by wealthy corporations and foundations. http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-industry-funds-nra-2013-1
That was 5 years ago. It's even more now.

The NRA doesn't have 5M members?

How many members does the Brady Campaign have?

Which is more representative of democratic impulses? If there is such a mass movement for Gun Control, where are their million member single issue organizations?

Tell me.

TwoScoopsPlissken says

Which is more representative of democratic impulses? If there is such a mass movement for Gun Control, where are their million member single issue organizations?

Tell me.

I think you'll see it soon enough. But, polling tells the story pretty well. There is very broad support for common sense gun control. The NRA and Republicans' intolerance of any reform is turning ordinary people against them. I can't believe they are so tone deaf.

Goran_K says

The NRA is a private advocacy group of over 5 million citizens that gets $0 in Federal or State funding.

Seems like it's Democracy in action, not being overcome.

No, Democracy is 1 person, 1 vote. It's not $50MM to buy the entire House and Senate.

Facts, Not Opinion, About the State of Guns in America

After every mass shooting event, before the blood even dries, the debates and arguments begin.

This article is nothing but a series of grouped facts which tell their own story.

________

A firearm is a nonliving piece of metal.

It takes the action of a living being to fire a firearm, purposefully or accidentally.

Criminals do not follow laws.

Newly created and potential future laws will be ignored by criminals.

People who are not criminals do follow laws.

There are state and federal laws making illicit drugs illegal.

60,000-65,000 people died from drug overdoses in 2016.

There are state and federal laws making drunk driving illegal.

From 2006-2016, over 10,000 people died every year from drunk driving crashes.

Murder is illegal. Mass shootings are murder.

_______

Gun free zones disarm only those who choose to follow laws.

Almost every school shooting in the past 20 years has occurred in a “gun free zone.”

Individuals intent on harming or killing others will use any weapon or object to do so.

Evil people do not care about laws or human life.

_______

The Second Amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791. It is part of the Bill of Rights.

The Bill of Rights identifies pre-existing rights of all humans.

The Bill of Rights restricts the government from interfering with these rights.

The Bill of Rights does not grant any rights.

The Second Amendment protects the right to own firearms.

Repealing the Second Amendment would not remove the right to keep and bear arms.

Repealing the Second Amendment would only allow the government to violate the right to keep and bear arms.

_______

The first known “machine-gun” was patented in 1718.

The Puckle gun existed at the time of the writing of the Second Amendment.

The Second Amendment refers to “arms,” not limiting itself to covering any specific weapons or leaps of technology.

The First Amendment applies to all modern technologies including television, internet, and high-speed printing presses.

The Fourth Amendment covers modern technologies including cell phones and personal computers.

The Bill of Rights was not restricted to only technology that existed at the time of its writing.

_______

The national average for police response time is 11 minutes.

Every school has some teachers, school staff and administration officials present while in session.

School staffs are responsible for the safety of their students.

Almost all teachers and school staff in the United States are unarmed.

An unarmed individual stands little chance against an armed individual.

Many teachers have died while trying to protect students from active shooters.

_______

Semi-automatic weapons fire one round for every time the trigger is depressed.

Automatic weapons continuously fire while the trigger is depressed.

The functionality of an AR-15 and any standard semi-auto hunting rifle is the same.

AR-15’s are rifles with accessories to make them easier to operate. Most are black. Neither the accessories nor color make the rifle any deadlier.

The “AR” in AR-15 stands for “ARmalite,” the company that invented that style of rifle.

“AR” does not stand for “assault rifle.”

An “assault rifle” is a selective-fire weapon that can fire in both semi-automatic or automatic modes.

Most news reporters describe AR-15’s as “assault rifles.”

The caliber of an AR-15 is either .223 of an inch, or 5.56mm.

Bullets from an AR-15 are not the largest bullets.

A standard 9mm round is approximately 60 percent larger than a AR-15 round.

A standard hunting round (.308 or 30.06) is more than 30 percent larger than an AR-15 round.

Less than 400 people are killed per year by any kind of rifle, including the AR-15.

The National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934 regulates fully automatic weapons, suppressors, shotguns, and other destructive devices such as bombs or grenades. A special license from the BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives) is required to manufacture or own any of these items.

_______

Background checks are required for all online firearm dealer purchases.

Background checks are required for all gun show dealer purchases.

Individuals selling private property to another individual who is a non-felon is legal.

Criminals stealing firearms do not go through background checks.

Criminals selling firearms to other criminals will not conduct background checks.

_______

There are 270-310 million firearms in the United States.

Approximately 40 percent of all U.S. households have a firearm.

Giving a liberal estimate of 13,000 firearm homicides per year, that is a 0.00004025 chance of being killed by a firearm. (1 in approximately 25,000 Americans).

40,200 people died in car accidents in 2016. (1 in approximately 8,000 Americans).

_______

The National Rifle Association is composed of 5 million+ Americans.

The NRA represents its membership.

The NRA does not receive government funding.

The NRA teaches gun safety for free in schools that will allow it.

_______

There are thousands of firearm laws and regulations at both state and federal level.

Before 1968, you could buy an AR-15 through the mail.

There was no background check system before 1993.

School shootings were a rare event until the 1990’s.

_______

These facts should have told you a story. You can ignore them and argue merely based on emotion, but that does nothing to change the facts, especially these last two:

Inanimate objects do not kill people intentionally.

People kill.

https://www.newsmax.com/johncylc/guns-firearms-second-amendment-parkland/2018/02/16/id/843820/

bob2356 says

anon_cf6c6 says

There are even some here that claim gun ownership in homes is down the last few decades.

No there aren't. The percentage of households with guns is down 40%.

How much has the number of actual households risen in the last few decades?

oops..

Sniper says

Not these percentages again, some just haven't learned math.

In 1978 there were 73 million households, so 51% of 73 = 37 million were gun owners.

In 2016 there were 126 million households, so 36% of 126 = 45 million were gun owners.

Quick math question, which is larger, 37 million or 45 million?

Why do you IGNORE the rise in households over the decades. Oh that's right, it doesn't fit the twisted Liberal narrative from CBS and NYT in that chart.

Still think actual household gun ownership is down 40%?

Those pesky math facts again...

bob2356 says

No there aren't. The percentage of households with guns is down 40%. The guns per household has doubled. Less of the population owns guns but the ones that do own a lot more of them. Numbers matter.

Down 40%??? Really??? This is YOUR chart below.

Numbers matter, somehow you don't understand them or can read a chart. Let's try for the THIRD time.

Sniper says

Not these percentages again, some just haven't learned math.

In 1978 there were 73 million households, so 51% of 73 = 37 million were gun owners.

In 2016 there were 126 million households, so 36% of 126 = 45 million were gun owners.

Quick math question, which is larger, 37 million or 45 million?

What was that again about "right wing math"?

More households own guns NOW.

So tell us, which number of households are bigger, 37 million or 45 million?

Still think it's down 40%.

bob2356 says

Numbers matter.

Apparently logic doesn't.

bob2356 says

No there aren't. The percentage of households with guns is down 40%. The guns per household has doubled. Less of the population owns guns but the ones that do own a lot more of them. Numbers matter.

Down 40%??? Really??? This is YOUR chart below.

Numbers matter, somehow you don't understand them or can read a chart. Let's try for the THIRD time.

Sniper says

Not these percentages again, some just haven't learned math.

In 1978 there were 73 million households, so 51% of 73 = 37 million were gun owners.

In 2016 there were 126 million households, so 36% of 126 = 45 million were gun owners.

Quick math question, which is larger, 37 million or 45 million?

What was that again about "right wing math"?

More households own guns NOW.

So tell us, which number of households are bigger, 37 million or 45 million?

Still think it's down 40%.

bob2356 says

Numbers matter.

Apparently logic doesn't.

bob2356 says

No there aren't. The percentage of households with guns is down 40%. The guns per household has doubled. Less of the population owns guns but the ones that do own a lot more of them. Numbers matter.

Nice try sniper.

Uh how would anyone even know this or get accurate information about this?

As a matter of fact and culture, gun owners aren't very open about what they have inside their home. Gun owners aren't going to be like, "Yeah I have guns inside my house. 17 exactly."

That sounds ridiculous.