patrick.net

Okay, well San Fran is a special case. You might sometimes keep that in mind when generalizing what you see out onto the rest of the U.S. There are a lot of liberals with very traditional values, even if they sometimes feel compelled to some degree, for example defend the rights of homosexuals. Even most republicans (the younger ones) could give a shit about other peoples personal sexual identities. They're not interested in imposing their values about that on to them (with exeptions such as FW). Neither would Jordan Peterson be.

OK, I agree that most people are more moderate than the press would have us believe. The press thrives on division and anger. Sells papers.

But my point was that even the press can not get away with criticizing Peterson, without just adding to his following. He makes too much sense.

A big part of what Peterson advocates for, at least with respect to politics, is free speech. The press isn't opposed to free speech. Even when the press shows stories about authoritarian leftists at colleges, that serves to wake all the moderate majority up to a problem. Probably part of what drives Peterson's popularity.

FortWayne says

I saw that interview and it was something. That woman proves that feminism makes people crazy.

I saw a devoted "Gotcha" type Journalist who decided to use her typical rhetorical tricks on a cognitive scientist and got her ass beat.

I mean, did she not think that a psychologist of decades of experience is not going to have an extensive number of Judo Moves when dealing with Mind Tricks?

TwoScoopsPlissken says

FortWayne says

I saw that interview and it was something. That woman proves that feminism makes people crazy.

I saw a devoted "Gotcha" type Journalist who decided to use her typical rhetorical tricks on a cognitive scientist and got her ass beat.

I mean, did she not think that a psychologist of decades of experience is not going to have an extensive number of Judo Moves when dealing with Mind Tricks?

Yeah but don't forget - the association of "JP is not nice to women!" sticks regardless. So his lesser skilled and monied sympathizers may be taken down by way of association. She may have just been a pawn sacrifice in the game.

mell says

Yeah but don't forget - the association of "JP is not nice to women!" sticks regardless.

He wasn't mean to her. Although in the aftermath they tried to generate a story that his followers were threatening her with all of their "so you're saying" comments on twitter. It didn't fly except to the most idiotic left wingers.

marcus says

The press isn't opposed to free speech.

I disagree. The MSM is all for free speech for their own globalist identity-politics ideology, but carefully omits stories which show its many downsides.

Have you ever seen an MSM article about exactly how much illegal slave labor drives down US wages?

Or one about how diversity reduces all forms civic engagement?

Or how you can sell a house for more money by not using a realtor? Lol, had to put that one in, even through it's really just about advertising revenue.

The people in power don't want you to see those stories, so they don't appear. And it's hard to see what isn't there.

Patrick says

The MSM is all for free speech for their own globalist identity-politics ideology, but carefully omits stories which show its many downsides.

There's a difference between editorial policy and the types of stories that fit with whomever is deciding it on editorial boards, varying a lot from one publisher to another, versus being opposed to free speech.

For example I can imagine CNN not choosing to do a story about the affects that illegal immigrants, already here, have on the wages for housekeepers, nannies, food pickers, landscaping companies and construction etc. I.e. compared to deporting them all.. But I can't imagine them taking issue with say a youtuber, blogger or even other MSM outlet that wanted to talk about it.

I also can't imagine them doing a story on how disruptive it would be to the lives of all those immigrants if they were deported. What about their children, who are future taxpayers, and so on. Sometimes stories aren't addressed simply becasue of their complexity. Take most foreign policy for example. Besides, to do that well might be tipping our hand in some ways.

All of CNN is like that lady in the meme.

My coworker had CNN on tonight. Anderson Cooper and some randoms were yapping about Trumps tweets...for a long time. Then Leon Panetta came on. One of the most knowledgeable, intelligent govt insiders alive. And what do they talk about?

Trumps tweets. The entire damn interview.

Still waiting for the New York Times bestseller list to acknowledge that Peterson's book even exists. That is the state of affairs these days.

I thought it was because politics tends to tap into people's emotional side instead of the logical side. And there seems to be an ever-shrinking attention span among the masses.

marcus says

epublicans wish they had a monopoly on traditional values, but it simply isn't true.

Peterson is a left leaning libertarian. He's made a career of studying nazis and speaking out against the threat of authoritarianism.

He speaks out against extreme leftists because they have infested our schools and establishments resulting in oppression of wrongthinkers. The extreme left is the biggest threat to freedom and liberalism that we have in today's western culture. Today's left = fascism.

Don't confuse his indictment of the insane left w support of republicans. Jordan Peterson is what the left should be.

marcus says

many republicans love to color ALL democrats with that brush. See CBOE's posts about Nazi progressives.

I should mark this post as personal but I'll explain why you're wrong. I'm a liberal. I've never voted for a Republican. Ever. Not once. I didn't vote for trump though at this rate I will in 2020.

The leftist who think white supremacists are at the core of trumps support, or who support intersectional idiocy theory are the biggest problem in today's society. They righteously divide us, cast blame on an imagined enemy, and push for authoritarian tyranny JUST LIKE THE NAZIS.

Any true liberal would speak out against this tyranny from the left, exactly as J Peterson does.

marcus says

You clearly have no idea what the typical liberal thinks.

Prove us wrong and admit that white supremacy is the left's boogeyman of choice to control useful idiots.

marcus says

Okay, well San Fran is a special case.

Nope. Was happening in Chicago and in Austin now as well. It happens on almost every university. Extreme leftism is the only allowed viewpoint in Hollywood, the MSM (minus Fox which is a joke unto itself), social media and now in K-18 schools as well.

The tyrranny is terrifying. You don't notice because you don't care about the people being oppressed.

Some of us do care, and have read enough history to know this can not end well.

I don't doubt there is a far more reasonable leftwing. They simply don't care enough to stick their necks out for dirty uneducated wrongthinkers. This is the exact attitude the average german had towards gypsies and jews in Weimar Germany. The left today = Nazis of the 1930's.

steverbeaver says

I thought it was because politics tends to tap into people's emotional side instead of the logical side. And there seems to be an ever-shrinking attention span among the masses.

Yes, but we should be more specific. That emotion is belonging. People will suppress their doubts if that's what it takes to be accepted by the group they want to belong to. Belonging was a matter of life and death evolutionarily. If you were excluded by your tribe, you'd likely starve or get eaten by something.

I agree about the attention span thing too. Maybe it's the constant interruption from smartphones.

Patrick says

I agree about the attention span thing too. Maybe it's the constant interruption from smartphones.

I absolutely believe that to be true. After watching and dealing with people for decades, very few today have an attention span that lasts more than a few minutes, if that. Coupled with pure ignorance on basic facts of life. Hardly anyone "remembers" basic skills and facts, since they can just look them up on Google.

What I also see is people's lack to figure things out and plan ahead. We've been conditioned to "absorb" information nonstop(videos, texts, FB updates, tweets, emails), that without a steady stream of "stuff" coming at them, people become walking zombies, unable to figure out their next move.

errc says

And yet you choose to live there, rather than the other 99.99% of the country. What do you think that says about you?

It's not that easy. Job, family, kids, friends and many other "obligations" can keep you in the area. What's wrong with advocating for change in your area? If you ultimately are totally fed up though then moving is a good option.

Patrick says

People will suppress their doubts if that's what it takes to be accepted by the group they want to belong to. Belonging was a matter of life and death evolutionarily. If you were excluded by your tribe, you'd likely starve or get eaten by something.

Deep and accurate.

Our brains are designed to group us into tribes and save us from large predators.

The problem is deeper though. "Not my superior brain" is the common attitude most people have to the flaws of the human mind. These egotistical people will always be slaves to their own impulses, easily propagandized and controlled. We are egotistical fucks.

I suggest checking out a YouTube star named David Snyder to discover how deeply flawed your own brain can be...and how to take advantage of this fact in others.

CBOEtrader says

Patrick says

People will suppress their doubts if that's what it takes to be accepted by the group they want to belong to. Belonging was a matter of life and death evolutionarily. If you were excluded by your tribe, you'd likely starve or get eaten by something.

Deep and accurate.

Our brains are designed to group us into tribes and save us from large predators.

The problem is deeper though. "Not my superior brain" is the common attitude most people have to the flaws of the human mind. These egotistical people will always be slaves to their own impulses, easily propagandized and controlled. We are egotistical fucks.

I suggest checking out a YouTube star named David Snyder to discover how deeply flawed your own brain can be...and how to take advantage of this fact in others.

Yeah but modern life also made us so "safe" - regardless of what you hear and see in the news now is usually always the safest time to be alive - that you can start virtue-signaling and shitting on your own tribe without repercussion from that place and feeling of safety, until there are real consequences to you or your close ones. Back in the days advocating from the destruction of your own tribe and actively working towards it would have gotten you killed instantly, either by friend or foe. Virtue-signaling and SJWism are fairly modern neurological diseases.

mell says

Virtue-signaling and SJWism are fairly modern neurological diseases.

Virtue signaling is as old as society. Jonathon Haidt suggests ridiculous tribal religious beliefs are themselves an in group virtue signalling test. This allows group members to righteously declare their loyalty to the tribe, exactly as Patrick suggested Cathy Newman did. The more irrational, the larger the virtue signal.

Regarding SJW's, Jordan Peterson suggests that they are a poorly organized religion that was slapped together in the last 25 years. He believes religious affiliation to a group to be so intricately entwined into the human psyche that insane ideologies are expected human inventions to fill the chasm left by rejection of traditional religions.

This is why Nietsche (an atheist) predicted the end of Christianity in late 1800's as a forewarning of massive human created tragedies to come. Nietsche was absolutely spot on. The 20th century was plagued by evil ideologies, and the massive deaths resulting from them.

Like it or not, we are a tribal species. Religion is the core belief that binds a tribe. When religion is rejected, we see unsophisticated religious-like ideologies rush in to replace that psychological need.

CBOEtrader says

mell says

Virtue-signaling and SJWism are fairly modern neurological diseases.

Virtue signaling is as old as society. Jonathon Haidt suggests ridiculous tribal religious beliefs are themselves an in group virtue signalling test. This allows group members to righteously declare their loyalty to the tribe, exactly as Patrick suggested Cathy Newman did. The more irrational, the larger the virtue signal.

Regarding SJW's, Jordan Peterson suggests that they are a poorly organized religion that was slapped together in the last 25 years. He believes religious affiliation to a group to be so intricately entwined into the human psyche that insane ideologies are a natural byproduct to fill the chasm left by rejection of traditional religions.

Like it or not, we are a tribal species. Religion is the core belief that binds a tribe. When religion is rejected, we see unsophisticated religious-li...

I don't believe these virtue-signals were sent when there was chance it could harm oneself, more likely the majority of them were sent to seek and get the protection from the tribe, no matter how bizarre. Sure there were exceptions, but the difference today is that you can virtue-signal from a place of almost absolute safety and go against your tribal close and loved ones without short-term repercussions.

mell says

more likely the majority of them were sent to seek and get the protection from the tribe, no matter how bizarre.

Exactly the way Haidt describes it.

mell says

and go against your tribal close and loved ones without short-term repercussions.

The sjw's dont consider people they are virtue signalling against to be their tribe, evern if it is their neighbor or family. They see others w shared beliefs as their tribe (like hollywood).

mell says

Virtue-signaling and SJWism are fairly modern neurological diseases.

SJW-type behavior is not new as well. Anti-alcohol campaigns of early 20th century seem quite similar to SJW's today.

This is one of most interesting threads lately on Patnet.

drB6 says

Anti-alcohol campaigns of early 20th century seem quite similar to SJW's today.

Right up with the demonization of men and celebration of women.

Nevermind that alcohol was the only 'painkiller' Men could afford and that 60+ hour weeks of backbreaking menial labor was the norm.

Patrick says

The key to seeing why otherwise rational people will brutally persecute any diversity of opinion, even about obvious facts, is given in the analysis:

This. At a university, even fairly moderate one, you will be tarred and feathered for expressing conservative viewpoints. Elections of student body presidents are rigged to get a more politically correct candidate. Basically, kids at the age where they absorb knowledge about world get exposed to one world view.

drB6 says

mell says

Virtue-signaling and SJWism are fairly modern neurological diseases.

SJW-type behavior is not new as well. Anti-alcohol campaigns of early 20th century seem quite similar to SJW's today.

This is one of most interesting threads lately on Patnet.

I don't think you can group anti-alcohol or anti-tobacco in the same category as anti-"he-uses-the-wrong-pronoun" or anti-"he-doesn't-want-a-diversity-rapefest" categories. At least there is real damage from drugs, and if it hits close to home the want to ban is understandable (even if it doesn't solve the issue). But point taken.

drB6 says

This is one of most interesting threads lately on Patnet.

You said somethin' there doc. Pat.net has always, for me, represented a "radical centrist" POV stretching going back to the housing bubble days. Personally, I think Patrick should declare himself Leader of the Bay Area Liberalists and expand the reach of his platform with the goal of protecting and promoting basic principles to realize a freer and demonstrably better society.
I should also note that both Haidt and Peterson promote the idea that viewpoint diversity is necessary in the quest for for truth, whether that is in the scientific or political realm. That is ultimately the danger of universities promoting only one point of view. You become so enamored with your ideology you lose the ability to critique it -- with the end result of using authoritarian structures to defend it. As Haidt has shown, at best, we have a crude intuition from which we attempt to "reason" within our limited cognitive framework. We need others to see what we can't.

Thank you @EBGuy I had not heard of Liberalism.

CBOEtrader says

The leftist who think white supremacists are at the core of trumps support

If they can blame Trump's election on "racism" then they can feel good about themselves.

If they see that Trump's election is actually a result of the mass export of jobs and mass import of illegals, and the fact that no one really liked Hillary, even on her own side, then they cannot feel good about themselves.

So they take the easy way out instead of feeling bad, which is natural.

rando says

If they see that Trump's election is actually a result of the mass export of jobs and mass import of illegals, and the fact that no one really liked Hillary, even on her own side, then they cannot feel good about themselves.

And that the policies they've loudly championed are rejected by the general populace for not actually working.

CBOEtrader says

This is the exact attitude the average german had towards gypsies and jews in Weimar Germany. The left today = Nazis of the 1930's.

I do think there is a scary point to be made in that the blame of all white people for "racism" is blame-by-genetics, exactly as it was for the Jews.

This is a typical first step in each genocide. De-humanization of a whole class of people just by their accident of birth.

rando says

I do think there is a scary point to be made in that the blame of all white people for "racism" is blame-by-genetics, exactly as it was for the Jews.

"Toxic Masculinity"
"Toxic Whiteness"
"Whiteness Oppression Studies"

Patrick says

Imagine how the same SJW crowd would react to these:

In the previous 60 years, pretty badly.

But now, the SJWs are coming up with an answer to the "Jewish Question":

LOL. Interesting "perspectives". pic.twitter.com/nKeDbjHesa— New Real Peer Review (@RealPeerReview) April 2, 2018

The Asians will be next to be included in Toxic "Whiteness", the Oppressor.

First they came for the Whites, then they came for the Jews. By the time they reached me, Dr Nguyen Van Thoc, MD, nobody was left...

But Seriously, as an Ashkenazi-Paddy-Viking-Russian Stooge, I always knew they were coming for me.

These 2 perspectives are (1) the extreme right (with neo-nazis), (2) the extreme left (with identity politics).
Because we all know there is no in-between. Choose your camp....

CBOEtrader says

I'm a liberal. I've never voted for a Republican. Ever. Not once. I didn't vote for trump though at this rate I will in 2020.

What a laugh. You certainly aren't a democrat, or you would be sensible enough to feel that there are plenty of democrats that are just as sensible, and just as conservative (in the true sense of the word) as you are, and as Peterson is.

CBOEtrader says

Any true liberal would speak out against this tyranny from the left, exactly as J Peterson does.

I do speak out against it. I hate it. But unlike you, I have a good sense of proportionality and would never generalize that all, or most or that even a truly significant minority of liberals are in the authoritarian left group, as you and others (like Patrick) seem to want to color all democrats as being on the authoritarian left.

CBOEtrader says

It happens on almost every university. Extreme leftism is the only allowed viewpoint in Hollywood, the MSM (minus Fox which is a joke unto itself), social media and now in K-18 schools as well.

Again this view is way out of proportion. And I hold as proof of this that you can't find any serious criticism of Jordan Peterson in the MSM, as his popularity continues to grow.

I had lunch the other day with an ex-student of mine, now a Math major at UCLA, he told me of a meme page that is very popular with UCLA students to chime in on, and he says there are so many memes "shitting on" (his words) gender studies majors that he has started to feel sorry for them (while he's never been a fan of them or identity politics in general).

Two points:

1) the SJW authoritarian left is so much smaller than you think it is, although not extremely insignificant, simply because a lot of average to below average intelligence minority students, buy in to it. Included would be sexual identity minorities. But the fear you voice of it turning into fascism is laughable. I know this becasue Los Angeles teens are a pretty damn good indicator, and a high majority don't buy in to the BS.

2) I agree with Jonathon Haidt (look in to his heterodox academy). There is a backlash. He predicts that over time some universities will position themselves as about being all about science, real scholarship, and legit fields of study. (see the Chicago statement on free speech) . Others will position themselves as all about social justice issues. Not that it will be exclusive, but that it's a marketplace, and that a lot of school will naturally evolve to be maybe not explicitly anti SJW, but wanting to have a reputation of not being about that, in order to improve their desirability and competitiveness.

What do you think ? That you're such special snow flakes, as if only you are so special that only you can see how messed up the SJW phenomenon on college campuses is ? Dude ! Everyone knows. The backlash is happening. Congratulations for being a small one of the millions of people that feel that way about it.

My guess is that way more than 70% of the population is opposed to that BS. While at the same time many not being totally opposed to social justice as a concept. Such as seeing police competence as a real issue.

Heraclitusstudent says

These 2 perspectives are (1) the extreme right (with neo-nazis), (2) the extreme left (with identity politics).
Because we all know there is no in-between. Choose your camp....

I'm in the middle group along with whatever it is, say 75% of the country.

What gives with people that aren't quite neo nazis, but they constantly want to talk about refreshing anit-political correctness, and they think that the identity politics SJW crowd includes the MSM and NPR and a scary out of control majority, that are just a week or two away from opening concentration camps for white men ?

IT looks like irrational fear of non-white folks to me. OF course a lot of non white folks are going have beliefs about white privilege. Yeah, it's racist. It's wrong. But it's also understandable that maybe this has to go in that direction a little further, before everyone agrees that its stupid. That is the idea that you can't be racist against people in the majority. The people with the majority of political and corporate and financial power.

marcus says

all democrats as being on the authoritarian left.

all democrats dont matter. what matters are those in power of societal institutions. universities, corporate america, our entire education system, social media firms, the msm, and hollywood are all righteously expressing an oppressive nazi-like agenda. fact.