patrick.net

Key soundbites from the press conference:

TRUMP: WE AGREED TO WORK TOGETHER TOWARD ZERO TARIFFS ON INDUSTRIAL GOODS
TRUMP: EU WILL INCREASE PURCHASES OF U.S. SOYBEANS
TRUMP: DEAL MADE TO STRENGTHEN STRATEGIC ENERGY COOPERATION
TRUMP: DEAL FOR CLOSE DIALOGUE ON REDUCING TRADE BUREAUCRACY
TRUMP SAYS U.S., EU TO WORK TOGETHER TO `REFORM' THE WTO
TRUMP: WE WON'T GO AGAINST SPIRIT OF DEAL WHILE TALKS ONGOING
TRUMP: WE'LL RESOLVE STEEL, ALUMINUM TARIFF ISSUES

Juncker repeated pretty much that Trump said:

JUNCKER: I'M HAPPY THAT WE REACHED THIS AGREEMENT TODAY
JUNCKER: AS LONG AS TALKS ONGOING, WILL RESIST FURTHER TARIFFS
JUNCKER: U.S.-EU AGREED ON NO NEW TARIFFS DURING NEGOTIATIONS
JUNCKER: WE AGREE THERE'S GLOBAL OVERCAPACITY IN STEEL SECTOR
JUNCKER: WE AGREE THERE ARE TOO MANY ILLEGAL SUBSIDIES
JUNCKER: WE AGREED ON NEED TO CRACK DOWN ON FORCED TECH TRANSFER

It appears that Europe is no longer part of the resistance.

MrMagic says

It appears that Europe is no longer part of the resistance.

So did Rachel Maddow start talking about illegal alien children again, or Russia?

HEYYOU says

Mass shootings don't apply until the death toll reaches a 1000.

90% of gun murders happen in Democrat controlled cities.

Goran_K says

90% of gun murders happen in Democrat controlled cities.

Of course, everything bad that happens in the world is because of democrats.

Goran_K says

So did Rachel Maddow start talking about illegal alien children again, or Russia?

both

Heraclitusstudent says

Of course, everything bad that happens in the world is because of democrats.

Not everything, but there is enough empirical evidence that shows leftism killed more people in the 20th century than all 20th century Wars combined.

Heraclitusstudent says

everything bad that happens in the world is because of democrats.

Nailed it!

Hassan_Rouhani says

Nailed it!

Nazism = Left
Socialism/Communism = Left

Pretty much the worst enemies of humanity have been from collectivism which the left embraces wholly.

Goran_K says

Jim Acosta, Rachel Maddow, and Democrats in general:

ERECTION INTENSIFYING!!!

Goran_K says

Not everything, but there is enough empirical evidence that shows leftism killed more people in the 20th century than all 20th century Wars combined.

Right. Democrats are all Maoists, or maybe Stalinists. How else could they fail to be republicans?

Heraclitusstudent says

Right. Democrats are all Maoists, or maybe Stalinists

No, but the majority of them are collectivists. Do you disagree?

Goran_K says

No, but the majority of them are collectivists. Do you disagree?

What do you mean by collectivist? Is having a shared sewer "collectivism" in your mind? A shared army? A shared education system?
Where do you draw the line of "collectivism"?

Heraclitusstudent says

What do you mean by collectivist?

Do you hear Nazi's, Socialist, Communist, Democrats talking about "shared sewers" to rile up their base? No? Okay, so now that we're done with straw men arguments...

Insofar as Democrats believe most of the economy should be privately owned, they are not collectivists.
Clearly they aren't.

Ocasio-Cortez doesn't speak for the Democratic party last I checked.

Heraclitusstudent says

Ocasio-Cortez doesn't speak for the Democratic party last I checked.

No, only HALF (the half that voted for Sanders in 2016, who is currently on the campaign trail with Cortez).

Heraclitusstudent says

Ocasio-Cortez doesn't speak for the Democratic party last I checked.

Are you saying a majority of Democrats wouldn't agree with:

- Medicare for all
- Furthering the LGBT agenda
- Housing is a human right
- Abolish ICE

The past 8 years says otherwise. Seriously, pay attention to things happening within your own party.

Heraclitusstudent says

Ocasio-Cortez doesn't speak for the Democratic party last I checked.

also, here's DNC chairman Perez on what he thinks of Cortez.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/07/03/dnc_perez_alexandria_ocasio-cortez_represents_the_future_of_our_party.html

TOM PEREZ, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Well, my daughters -- I have three kids, two of whom are daughters. One just graduated college, one who is in college, and they were both texting me about their excitement over Alexandria because she really -- she represents the future of our party. She ran a spirited campaign.

You still think Cortez doesn't represent a large plurality if not majority of the DNC and its voters views?

A majority of democrats wouldn't agree with all of those. And these slogans mean nothing. What does "Housing is a human right" mean?
Is she gonna build houses for everyone who asks?
Most democrats probably don't believe in unrestricted immigration as well.

Heraclitusstudent says

A majority of democrats wouldn't agree with all of those. And these slogans mean nothing. What does "Housing is a human right" mean?
Is she gonna build houses for everyone who asks?
Most democrats probably don't believe in unrestricted immigration as well.

What does medicare for all (aka Universal Health Care, aka single payer) mean? It means exactly what it says.

You may be surprised by the radicalization of the left, and maybe you haven't been paying attention but if Hillary Clinton and Wasserman Shultz had not pulled some Communist Politburo cheating in 2016, Sanders would have been the Democrat party's nominee for the election, and in all honesty, had a good chance of beating Trump.

Goran_K says

What does medicare for all (aka Universal Health Care, aka single payer) mean? It means exactly what it says.

If you factor in the empirical failure of the private sector to provide affordable healthcare, and the empirical success of many nations to achieve that goal, it follows that many reasonable people are in favor of public healthcare.

I wouldn't call that collectivist. Not more than public education is collectivist.

The biggest mistake both parties has done has been throwing Seniors under the bus because of a few Slime ball Bastard Boomers who are worst humanity has ever spawned. Leading the rabble of clueless Millennial to piss and moan about how they hate Boomers and they how they are bad evil 1%'ers. But not Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton, Warren Buffet, and George Soros of course, they are just darlings.

The Seniors will be the largest growing voting demographic in the Country, anyone would do wise to include them in their platform. Even a Socialist.

Let me tell you what Ocasio-Cortez is not saying:
- Let's fight inequalities

You would think that would be a low hanging fruit for a "socialist". Much more than the "LGBT" agenda.

But that's not the direction the power-that-be want to go.

Heraclitusstudent says

If you factor in the empirical failure of the private sector to provide affordable healthcare, and the empirical success of many nations to achieve that goal,

You can't factor either of those things because they aren't true. Everything comes with compromises and sacrifices. Every system has strengths and weaknesses. There is no free lunch. Anyone who says "This system is better because it has no flaws" is being untruthful and illogical because no such system exists in the world that satisfies that statement.

Heraculis, had to delete one of your posts. You can make your point again without making it personally about me. Thanks for following the rules.

Heraclitusstudent says

Let me tell you what Ocasio-Cortez is not saying:
- Let's fight inequalities

What? Are you being serious or is that rhetorical and meant to be funny in some way? I'm being serious, I can't tell.

Goran_K says

You can't factor either of those things because they aren't true. Everything comes with compromises and sacrifices.

Yes they are true. You just don't want to admit it.
And no it doesn't. Many countries have better healthcare outcomes on most measures than the US and are still paying half what the US pays. Again a matter of empirical fact. Working with cartels has a price.

Goran_K says

Are you being serious or is that rhetorical

I'm serious. The democratic party harps on women vs men, white vs blacks, gay vs straights, etc... Their hierarchy of oppressors to oppressed goes from straight white man to transgender black woman.
It never goes from rich guy to poor guy. Never.
A lot of their supporters are rich and want to stay that way.

Don't you wonder why they make so much noise about trans and non-binaries?

Heraclitusstudent says

Yes they are true. You just don't want to admit it.
And no it doesn't. Many countries have better healthcare outcomes on most measures than the US and are still paying half what the US pays. Again a matter of empirical fact. Working with cartels has a price.

Not true.

You are saying one system is slave to "cartels", but what you're not realizing is that socialized healthcare is also slave to a cartel, it just has different skin.

As for "healthcare outcomes", that's not a real measure of success since the 4 of the Top 5 preventable causes of death are mostly preventable through PERSONAL choices. Nothing to do with the healthcare system in the US, just people being really fat, and making unhealthy choices compared to those in Nordic countries.

But here's one thing I do know.




If socialized healthcare in those "nordic countries" you admire so much do have some positives, they are certainly built on the backs of capitalist funded breakthroughs from the West.

Also:



Go ahead and take a look at that graphic for a couple of seconds.

@heraclitusstudent
I’m glad you can see the actual struggle. Both parties have been anti-working class for so many years, people thought they didn’t have another option.

Heraclitusstudent says

It never goes from rich guy to poor guy. Never.

Are you joking?

That's pretty much Bernie Sanders entire political shtick.

Now if you mean the Obama/Clinton types, then yes, you have a point, but those guys are quickly losing popularity within their own party.

Goran_K says

they are certainly built on the backs of capitalist funded breakthroughs from the West.

Fyi: most of the countries you mention do have private drug companies. You seem to be confusing drug research and medical care.

As for wait times: you do have to cherry pick the countries with the worst systems.
In spite of that I don't hear Canadians are dying on the curb, the mouth opened.

Goran_K says

Are you joking?

That's pretty much Bernie Sanders entire political shtick.

Bernie Sander was sabotaged by his own Democratic party, remember?

Populism exists on the left and on the right. It doesn't mean he has the support.

You have to follow the plot.

Heraclitusstudent says

Fyi: most of the countries you mention do have private drug companies. You seem to be confusing drug research and medical care.

As for wait times: you do have to cherry pick the countries with the worst systems.
In spite of that I don't hear Canadians are dying on the curb, the mouth opened.

You don't think pharmaceutical innovation is part of health care? Hmm.

As for "people dying on the streets", that is a nice fairy tale to rile up the left base, but it doesn't help make a point.

The US healthcare system has been exceedingly great for me, I can see specialist within 1-3 days most of the time. I once saw an ENT doctor within an hour of my call. How exactly has the US Healthcare system failed me?

Heraclitusstudent says

Bernie Sander was sabotaged by his own Democratic party, remember?

Populism exists on the left and on the right. It doesn't mean he has the support.

You have to follow the plot.

Yes populism does exists on both sides, but the right was able to blow up their establishment, and elected Trump.

What has the left done? They're going to replace their establishment with people like Sanders and Cortez, which is arguably worse.

Goran_K says

You don't think pharmaceutical innovation is part of health care? Hmm.

I'm saying you can have a single payer and private drug companies. It is typically the case in most industrialized nations.

Goran_K says

The US healthcare system has been exceedingly great for me

That's nice. I wonder how the average family of 4 with $50K income is doing when some health crisis shows up.
And I wonder how you'll fare at 70 when you need full time care and how long will your nest egg will last.

Anecdotic evidence doesn't prove the point.

Goran_K says

Yes populism does exists on both sides, but the right was able to blow up their establishment, and elected Trump.

What has the left done?

So far it shows a rich demagogue beats an old angry congress guy. Doesn't say much about the left or right.

Goran_K says

What does medicare for all (aka Universal Health Care, aka single payer) mean? It means exactly what it says.

You realize the US is the only first world country without extensive government health care. About 30% of US people do have government insurance too. You're not only sharing the world with socialists, including the US's closest allies, but 30% of the way there yourself.

It seems, going back to the original post, that no deal has been struck. There's some verbal agreements, but the real deal making is still on going. We'll have to wait to see the full details.

"A working group of senior advisers will meet to facilitate trade and lower barriers. The two sides pledged to refrain from new trade restrictions during those negotiations."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44961560

HowdyThere says

You realize the US is the only first world country without extensive government health care.

Medicare, Medicaid and the VA are government healthcare. How many people are covered in those systems now?