patrick.net

I'm REALLY a JBR now! It pisses me off that we avoided taking out dodgy loans because we could see that we couldn't afford it and yet other people are really screwing the system and getting away with it!

Will it never end? What's even worse is that we will end up paying for all this fraud one way or another.

Can I blame them? YES I CAN - bear in mind that they are willing to ruin other peoples lives by stealing SS#'s, let alone the mortgage fraud and stealing money from the banks in cash backs.

Betty, why didn't you call the lenders and inform them of the fraud if you were so worried about your friends taking these loans out and so worried about the price the US would have to pay?

The market will eventually sort it out. I don't blame the aliens taking advantage of it. The mortgage brokers are not stupid either. They know all too well what they are doing. Let the bag holders (ie CDO bond buyers) eat it. We just have to make sure the Fed does not intervene when some Hedge funds crash.
I will immigrate and never come back to the US if Bernanke and the Fed intervenes.
Let those damn Investment banks and their CDO holders feel the pain. Only then will RISK be priced correctly.
You have to understand that the mortgage brokers have no skin in the game, nor do the aliens. The only stupid idiots who deserve to burn and crash are the Hedge funds and their customers.
The problem is us not the aliens. You can not have a society mess with true Capitalism. This is what happens when risk is not priced correctly because everyone is counting on the Fed to bail out any crashes.

Enjoy and watch the another LTC in the making. Only this time, it is 1000 times bigger.

Time to get out this krazy kountry...

(Great graphic!)

This makes a lot of sense. I've been trying to figure out for years how picking cabbage could be such an increase in their quality of life, that they would risk everything to come here.

We really are the "Land of Opportunity." ...full of opportunists.

Sorry to be a skeptic's skeptic, but something smells wrong in the account. Too many apocryphal coincidences, misconceptions and contradictions.

* How do you know they are buying illegal SSNs? "Undocumented" workers have been able to legally obtain so-called non-work SSNs since at least 2000. The reason was an attempt to discover and better track the number of children and size of families. (Also because SSNs are a de facto personal id #).

* If they are indeed buying SSNs, then they are committing identity theft at a felony level, perhaps even an Federal felony level. As such, most people would (a) feel a very strong ethical or moral obligation to inform law enforcement; and/or (b) be very afraid of these people and feel too intimidated to report them. Nothing in the OP style wise hints at either of those.

* These people are supposedly "very very good" and dear friends. That leaves us as the readers with the uncomfortable position of either judging you by the friends you keep and hold dear, or determining that you are overemphasizing your friendship to compensate for some missing/deceptive part of the story. I don't know, but I'd think I'd be better off without a friend who apparently abhorred me so much.

* You take great pains to make sure we know your dear friends are illegal immigrants. Yet you then fail to connect that directly to the fraud they are allegedly committing. Legal citizens can and do commit the exact same type of fraud; they can even and often do even flee the country after being caught.

* No where did you actually ask for any advice or suggestions in how to HELP your dear friends. Instead you implored us to not extend pity to them. But also no hint of tough-love intervention either. Are you concerned about them? They could go to jail or be deported, and lose everything. Illegal or not, they are your dear friends, no?

* Murder is not speeding is not fraud is not breach of contract. Regardless, how do you want your dear friends to "PAY"? What is your remedy, and is it consistent for your friends as it is for all the others who aren't fortunate enough to be your friends?

--

I apologize in advance if I'm mistaken. I have no way of knowing for sure how legitimate these claims are. But it sounds to me like a common case of establishing a facade straw man argument and attempting to lend it credibility by claiming friendship with the offenders.

And for the record, I am a firm believer that fraud has run rampant in the residential real estate market, from sales agents to mortgage brokers and financiers. But the inclusion of illegal immigrants in this mix is merely a factor, not the cause or nexus. The problem is much more systemic than that, and even without a single illegal immigrant mortgage holder there would still be a historically unprecedented real estate price bubble.

Betty, why didn’t you call the lenders and inform them of the fraud if you were so worried about your friends taking these loans out and so worried about the price the US would have to pay?

I'm sure if she had, the banksters would have covered their ears and said "Lalalalalala..." until she left. They know *exactly* what their doing and just don't care. Hell, they don't even have to *hide* the fact they're doing this and don't care anymore. Remember the news stories about BofA making loans to illegals last year? Once those loans are packaged and sold off, they've "earned' their fees & commissions and the risk gets "passed through" to the next sucker.

Randy H,

"Dear friends" aside, the rest of her story is quite believable. Anyone in or around L.A. knows of several places where you can easily buy fake IDs & SS#s --Pico-Union & MacArthur Park to name two of the biggies.

If they are indeed buying SSNs, then they are committing identity theft at a felony level, perhaps even an Federal felony level. As such, most people would (a) feel a very strong ethical or moral obligation to inform law enforcement

Good luck with that. Try informing local law enforcement or the Feds about all the illegals living among you and the rampant fraud & identity theft, and see what happens. You'll probably get laughed right out of their office.

Oh, and in case anyone noticed their commute being unusually light this morning, this might be the reason why. They seem to be protesting for more "rights". I guess the "right" to hop the border illegally and get basically unlimited free housing, education, medical care, food stamps, AFDC, etc. while our stalwart political "leaders" look the other way isn't enough "rights" for them.

Upon reflection, I agree with Randy's assessment. The "friends" here sound like a pair of red herring strawmen. There's plenty of fraud and illegality to go around without blaming illegal immigration for this particular bubble. We can start with all the natural born mortgage brokers.

Gee, if I were to immigrate to Mexico illegally, I wonder how the Mexican government would treat me? Oh, not very well it seems...

In any case, if America, or at least SW USA, has indeed become a third world country. Then it's time to look to migration to a first world country -- before Australia and Canada rejects our asses for being too third worldish.

Randy H,

I'll have to agree, massive bubble with or without the "illegal as buyer" final wave. What does make this interesting is that I'm pretty sure this is one of the best angles a prosecutor will have to work on. These will provide them with their "juiciest" cases. Behind every strawberry picker/straw man I think we'll find a REIC shill looking to unload their own investment properties or get that one last commission.

True, I don't think there's much we'll be able to do to a rhubarb picker (other than deport him) but many of these cases will likely reveal some of the most egregious REIC activity.

But the inclusion of illegal immigrants in this mix is merely a factor, not the cause or nexus. The problem is much more systemic than that, and even without a single illegal immigrant mortgage holder there would still be a historically unprecedented real estate price bubble.

Agreed, but if anyone is wondering *why* the bubble is taking so long to deflate in SCAL (or still going strong in some areas), this thread topic is a good illustration.

"We may not have it all together, but together we can have it all"

I'm taking to the streets!

WTF? What kind of message is that? We're as f'd up as the day is long but if enough of us b!tch you'll buckle and give us whatever it is that "we" want? WTF?

My point has very little to do with illegal immigration per se. It has to do with what I see as "business as usual" in America. The source of the problem is *not* illegal immigrants, nor Casey Serin, nor San Francisco socialite Junior Leaguer amateur realtors, nor McMansion SUV NIMBYs. These are all *symptoms* of the problem. The problem is a system which rewards all this behavior, especially for the corporations and institutions which profit from it.

But, in traditional culture-wars fashion, we'll just bury the head of the monster in the sand and instead chase around the tail. But not without much vitriol, hatred, and a comment from Anne Coulter.

Do your friends really feel entitled to a bail-out? If my brother-in-law, a semi-legal immigrant had the mentality, I would report him myself.

I'm very pro-immigrant, but there are a few things that can really generate dis-sympathy among Americans like 1) going on welfare and 2) marching on a communist holiday with a mexican flag.

Mortgage fraud should be a good third.

"We can start with all the natural born mortgage brokers."

The illegal immigrants are also natural born :)

I agree citizen or no citizen, greed is not limited by immigration status or ethnicity.
Lots of mortgage brokers who are Latinos are screwing other Latino immigrants. Actually there was a thread here recently about a couple of fruit picker families getting a 750 K mortgage and their mortgage broker was also a Latino I think.

See what happens when we give stupid people too much self esteem?

(Hmm, my curmudgeonliness is off the chart today...)

PS - that wasn't a comment targeted at anyone in this blog. It's mostly towards FBs.

marching on a communist holiday with a mexican flag.

I suggest you read about the Haymarket Riots. If May Day has become a communist celebration, then we have only ourselves in the US to blame for it.

The “friends” here sound like a pair of red herring strawmen.

Some of my best friends are __________________

x black
x gay
x liberal
x conservative
x realtors
x on MySpace

Funny how no one ever says some of their best friends are us Capitalists.

SQT,

What makes it more depressing is that (as per your previous observations) this was altogether too predictable. Like watching those 1/2 hour "extreme sports" shows where every clip ends with a fire extinguisher and/or an ambulance.

(Some of my closest relatives are racists, like lots and lots of Chinese people)

My sane, nonhypocritical friends all believe in capitalism, though only a few has sufficient assets to qualify as "capitalists."

I don't expect mortgage brokers and realtors to stand up and cheer or warmly embrace the WAVE of regulation they're about to face, (but if they were smart, they should!)

Looking back the only thing I can figure is that REIC henchmen were working the illegals either to go out in a blaze of glory or just until "things returned to normal" where they could go back to previous clients for more sales/re-fi's. How else does it make sense?

My sane, nonhypocritical friends all believe in capitalism, though only a few has sufficient assets to qualify as “capitalists.”

Do they have a shot in becoming Virtual Capitalists (VCs) on the cartoon world?

If my brother-in-law, a semi-legal immigrant had the mentality, I would report him myself.

What is a semi-legal immigrant?

After my pool man bought two houses in Sonoma I would be prepared to believe anything about the real estate market.

Watching the meltdown in the city is like watching paint dry! I have a thought bubble sitting on the top of my head half the time that says "You're griping about the price of gas, how are you paying that $2 million mortgage?" Ah well, Sonoma is in deep doo, and the Press Democrat had the skyrocketing foreclosures and decreasing prices as its lead story on Sunday. I expect the city to follow.

My Parents sold their house at Sunnyvale for $800,000 back in 2005. Personally, it was worth only $200,000. It was old, sketchy neighborhood, and my dad added an addition which he probably didnt get a permit.

A Mexican family bought it, which I wondered how they came up with the down? (Still thinking 30 year fixed mortgage - Old School stuff) Well, I drove by a month later, the house turned into a berryessa flea market. Ton's of cars, a couch, a stove, a table, tons of kids, mexican music blasting in front of the house. This wasn't a party because it was the same old scene whenever I drive by. Looks like it 4 families were living in there. Horrible. I felt sorry for the neighbors.

We should have an informant network to enforce the immigration law and the internal revenue code.

Looks like it 4 families were living in there. Horrible. I felt sorry for the neighbors.

This is why I prefer housing that is completely unfriendly to families.

I am even against street parking. If people want to park more vehicles they should build bigger garages.

Clearly, illegal immigration is not the cause of the current RE situation. But the opportunities presented by our real estate market must be a very enticing lure to those who would abuse it. And news like this travels fast.

As far as "buying a SSN" goes; it may be easier than described above.
When illegal immigrants bear a child on our soil, that child is now a citizen, entitled to all rights afforded as such. Including a SSN. The tradition of naming first born children, especially boys, after the father, works well with SSN fraud.

Confusion of fact to create new truth is an age old ploy. ...and despite this story making sense to me at first, further reflection has convinced me that there is a fair bit of "fact meets fiction" above.

Illegal immigration is a major issue for California. Again, it is a symptom to a bigger issue: the labor market is broken.

I love this thread!

I think a National ID card system combined with a semi-militarized border can stop the problem from growing larger.

Hey Patrick, you should send this thread to Sen. Feinstein.

A bit OT, but alarming just the same...

Anyone read the cover story in Business Week (MAY 7)?
"Hey Buddy, You Wanna Buy a Bridge?"

Basically, "Infrastructure: the new asset class."
The very roads, bridges, airports, and shipping ports of this country are being sold into private control. The current price tag on the Golden Gate Bridge is estimated at $3.4 Billion. Europe and Oz have seen this already, as early as the "80's. Global investors seem very interested.
And why not? The captive customer base virtually guarantees "cash flows as steady as a beating heart."

I'm reading hard copy, but here is a link to the Debat Room:
http://tinyurl.com/2yo4fu

The very roads, bridges, airports, and shipping ports of this country are being sold into private control.

That is encouraging development.