patrick.net

> Here are some ideas from Steve, a patrick.net
> reader: the goals should be something like to
> promote home ownership by discouraging flipping
> and owning multiple residences

We need to remember that not everyone should own a home and government does not need to “promote” home ownership. I don’t know why everyone get’s upset with “flipping” since very few people have ever made any money “flipping” property (true flipping only works when you have 20%+ annual appreciation). What is wrong with owning multiple residences? If I want to buy a ranch in Montana or a condo on Maui why should that bother anyone?

> remove the mortgage rate deduction for all
> but the primary residence.

Since you can only write off $1mm of debt, going forward we will only have a few poor people that live in a crappy home and buy a crappy little cabin who can take a deduction for a second home. The guy with a $6mm home in Atherton and a $3mm second home in Aspen will probably have more than $1mm of debt on his primary home.

> second home/first investment property/ vacation
> property will have no mortgage deduction and no additional tax

You don’t have a “mortgage deduction” on investment property (but get to subtract the interest expense from your rental income).

> third home will carry a 10% annual tax
> fourth home will carry a 20% annual tax
> fifth home 30% tax
> sixth home 40% tax – etc

What will the “annual tax” be based on? If my grandfather bought a lakeshore cabin in Tahoe for $100K that is now my third home will I pay $10K a year on the purchase price or $300K a year based on the current value?

> discourage flipping: 35% tax on sale of property
> held for less then 6 months

So if someone moved to SF for a new job in November and paid $2mm for a home we will tax him $700K if his new firm went BK and wants to sell the home to move back to NY for a new job?

We need to remember that not everyone should own a home and government does not need to “promote” home ownership.

FAB is one of my favorites! :)

Yup, I agree with FAB completely.

Government's steps to encourage home ownership (the deductions, the cap gains exemptions, the quasi-govt orgs etc.) have all hurt, not helped.

Leave it alone.

Government's encouragement of home ownership is a way to ensure social stability. People who "own" their homes are much more likely to support the status quo.

It's all about mind control.

If government wants to encourage home ownership, they should counter local NIMBYism, which IMO an enemy to progress.

FAB,

I'm not sure where Steve was going with the whole 10-20-30-40%! tax either but wouldn't you agree if someone can afford Atherton/Aspen they're probably filing as a Sub S (or LLC) and getting a lot of other tax breaks anyway?

"It's all about mind control" LOL!

Just to put this into context let's try to remember as per NAR's own statistics 35% of homes sold in 2005 were 2nd homes. Some estimates are even higher. Granted that was the generally accepted peak year and a lot of this was attributed to the boomers but still and all, that's an insane number. (Typically it's more like 3-5%)

We know that a) in order for this to be a "2nd" home (they MUST have owned a 1st?) and b) it's such a generous deal it's impossible to say no to! If you want to own a 2nd or 3rd home, fine, just don't look for me to subsidize it.

Before rushing to join the bandwagon of pandering, cynical, asstard, boomer politicians with another ill conceived program, how about we just let the market do it's thing...just for a bit...maybe. I know everyone hates capitalism, but all this societal engineering isn't working out so well either.

RandyH - I agree. I hate capitalism, but unless we are ALSO willing to make the US an Americans-Only autarky, social engineering isn't going to work. Lacking the will to turn the US into an "Ein Reich, Ein Volk" type state, it's better for now to let the market have its way and that includes letting the sucker crash if that's what it wants to do.

I appreciate Steve's effort, but most of the suggestions have a snowball's chance in a consumer-driven economy. We're not likely to see policies or tax codes which discourage buying multiple homes, cars, tvs, iPods, etc. It's antithetical to everything our US economy is built upon. And I agree with the idea that a house, car, tv, whatever, is not a right of each American, nor is it a dream. It's just a thing.

I would however like to see more regulation of the Realtor business. That seems doable, even in our fear/greed driven markets. I'd like to see the MLS fully opened up to the consumer, repleat with verified multiple offers and prosecution for fake bidding wars and fake documents. I know that horse has already left the barn, but the crux of this thread seems to be about how to avoid another implosion of the economy due to tricks, scams and 'creative' exploitation of loop holes in the real estate business.

I know everyone hates capitalism, but all this societal engineering isn’t working out so well either.

I thought most people one this board love capitalism.

RE: “Ein Reich, Ein Volk

Who is the Ein Fuhrer? :)

Well, we'll need to elect one, I like Ron Paul, Mike Huckabee would work too. We need a man of the people whose loyalty is to the people not the moneylenders that's for sure.

Ich versuche. Ich habe genug Verrücktheit.

LowlySmartRenter,

I have to agree. Why get just ONE! We won't be able to stop that, I'm just curious though? If it weren't for the super-outrageously-generous-beyond-belief tax treatment 2nd homes get... would they STILL be as popular without it!?

Please to notice 1031 Exchange Ad above!

I'll further agree that NAR/REIC could stand all the soap we have.

Not so sure about details - though I favor getting gov't bumbles out of the equation - but I do think the time to be ready with such proposals will be at the trough of any downturn. Say, 2011 or so.

RE won't be mentionable in polite company, and you can probably kick it when it's already dead.

Again, there is nothing wrong about multi-culturalism. Just think about sushi, pad thai, kung pao chicken, wiener, fish and chips...

Orange County has low crime rate, yet it is diverse.

This shows that race and culture have little to do with crime. It has more to do with political ideals (esp. towards property rights and guns).

I guess my question is... at what point does it cease to be a 2nd home and start becoming a tax dodge? Do you know how many people there are that have never SEEN their vacation homes?

Oh. Presidential politikkks.

Does everyone already hate Mike Bloomberg? I don't.

Multiculturalism in the US should mean German, English, Scandanavian.... etc.

PeeterPee and yes, the OC has low crime because it's fairly well known that there are a fair amount of what the Brie-eating set call "gun toting rednecks" there.

God I miss OC.

Multiculturalism in the US should mean German, English, Scandanavian…. etc.

No. What about sushi, pad thai, kung pao chicken?

I am not a fan of Korean food but we must respect the civil liberties of those who like kimchee.

The MAIN issue is people's attitude towards liberty and property rights.

Scandinavian food is good too. Umm... open face sandwich with bay shrimps...

Some randoms notes here. For the record, a (good?) reason not to eat sushi (more specifically, sashimi) while pregnant is the threat of listeria.
The manifestations of listeriosis include septicemia, meningitis (or meningoencephalitis), encephalitis, and intrauterine or cervical infections in pregnant women, which may result in spontaneous abortion (2nd/3rd trimester) or stillbirth.

Can anybody explain what is going on with financials? Short squeeze? (is there a good place to check current short interest?) Or is the market saying the worst is over? (Wachovia -- no profit, no problem!) I guess they could be a bit oversold, but the best is still yet to come...

Multiculturalism in the US should mean German, English, Scandanavian…. etc.
My wife's people were not officially declared white until after the turn of the last century (1900). Do they make the cut? Just askin' cause I have to figure out if I'm going to head for the hills or hide out with the "Whirled Peas"/"Subvert the dominant paradigm" crowd...

The original post misses the entire point of this country. We are a nation that gives (mostly false) hope to the unwashed masses that yes, you Mr. J6P can live the American Dream, own a home, take nice vacations, drive a nice car, own some nice "toys" to show the neighbors how well you're doin', and maybe even some nice "investment properties." It's the ultimate drug for the masses. Homeownership is a major part of that government sponsored opium.

That is why Congress, the Pres, and all the hangers-on are working furiously to keep this Boomer-conceived clusterfuck that is today's housing situation and economy. This country will never pass any laws to shoot down the "American Dream" of homeownership.

We all thought religion was the opiate of the masses? Well, we were wrong. It's tract homes and crap made in China.

All food has risks. Especially Fugu.

Is death a sufficient deterrent when it comes to good food? I think it shouldn't be.

Not dietary advice.

PeeterPee I think lutefisk has kimchee beat, so that takes care of that.

Sure, I love Chinese, Korean, etc food after being fed a steady diet of McFood, anyone would. But the real European cuisines are every bit as good as the Asian ones and the Europeans won't chop up your kids they've abducted from the school yard and stir-fry 'em.

Food is the very lamest excuse to invite our enemies into our country.

We all thought religion was the opiate of the masses?

Religion is good. Faith is essential.

O.K let's try... THIS angle?

I want to buy 1,000 tillable acres in IA. Now eventually... I'll build a house on it but for now it's rows of corn and maybe I'll pull up a 5th wheel trailer when I'm on vacation? Can I write off the interest I pay on that? Why shouldn't that qualify for MID?

But the real European cuisines are every bit as good as the Asian ones and the Europeans won’t chop up your kids they’ve abducted from the school yard and stir-fry ‘em.

But I want varieties. I cannot stand eating the same thing every day.

RE: European cuisines

I prefer Contemporary French.

Skibum - the ability for the average guy to live decently is what the turmoil of the 1930s was all about, and it was realized right after WWII. It was that or have a bunch of very PISSED OFF vets hanging the rich from the lampposts.

We had a flattening wealth structure, plumbers were sending their kids to college, it was great. The old GI bill was the last great change for Mr Joe Average White Guy to get into college and get that degree he'd been dreaming of. It was a great time. It was also a time of living Jim Crow laws, very restrictive immigration, and the US gauged how well it was doing by its factories.

Then the moneylenders started tearing that all down, contempt for people who make things with their hands was encouraged, and we went from Mr Honest Joe Lunch Pail to the hippies to Gordon Gekko.

That's ok, really, what you sow, you will reap.

PeeterPee - back before McFood, there were seasonal variations, and a huge variety of dishes. Look in cookbooks from the 1920s and earlier, look into food history.

The food arguement is lame, lame, lame.

I don't eat McFood and I love seasonal variations.

I like Chicken a la King and Oyster Rockefeller. Both are old recipes.

Food from earlier days tend to be very rich though. (Hence the reference to Rockefeller)

The food arguement is lame, lame, lame.

Not arguing with you.

Religion is good. Faith is essential.

But there's a distinction. "Faith" is fine by me. Organized "religion" has done the world no good, and it's been misused in every part of the world for secular and evil purposes.

I believe in God, but I find almost all organized religion offensive.

I believe in God, but I find almost all organized religion offensive.

Want to start one?

"Want to start one?"

Yes!

The Faith Ministries of Eternal Real Estate Appreciation Church!

Humans can misuse anything. This is why I have zero faith in humanity.

The Faith Ministries of Eternal Real Estate Appreciation Church!

I am thinking about one that allows people to worship themselves. It is about feeling good about oneself. :)

I find ignorance offensive. Sadly, it's in no short supply these days; and worse yet seems to be in high demand.

To wit, some ignoramus jackass quoting you-know-who. Hey, did you manage to crawl out of your cave long enough to actually research your misstatements denying your hero's murders in Ohio in 1987? Care to clear the record? Or do you get a wet spot in the pants playing pretend white warrior from behind your pseudo-anonymous screen name?

(And for the record, "Fuhrer" is not a verboten term in German. It is used for things like "boy scout leader", for example. But Wehrmacht wannabees don't speak German, as a general rule.)