patrick.net

banning inheritance will make sure we can accomplish that.

We need to make sure all children of God have equal oppurtunity and nobody has unfair advantage.

I love how socialist activists talk up the idea that the USA is like to the slow learner and most shameful country in the civilized world for not offering complete medical care for everyone inside our borders.

I'm with you guys on the rotten mess that is the health insurance industry. We need to end the government subsidies of insurance companies in the form of tax breaks, and the government/insurance company conglomeration that is Medicare Part D. Government subsidies and regulations gave insurance their monopolies. (perhaps this is a good time to remind everyone that as greedy and heartless as the insurance industry is, no one forced you to accept insurance from them. The American people willingly allowed the insurance industry to take over medicine. We were stupid. But government cannot solve the problem, in fact government made it possible for insurance companies to become monopolies.) Get insurance companies and government out of health care and the bubble will burst.

But as messed up as it is, this is the country I want to live in. I don't want to live in Canada, UK, Netherlands or any other country that supposedly has a "better" health care system. I rarely come across a government program that I can get behind, but I propose this as the final solution. There is this thing called emigration. Everyone who is sick and tired of our health care system, or embarrassed to be an American because we just aren't socialist enough to be a part of the cool crowd at the UN should have the right to emigrate to another nation of their choosing. And in order to insure everyone has this right, the government will subsidize the cost of emigration for everyone who cannot pay their own way. (in order to make the perpetual leaseholder from san jose happy lets insist that anyone leaving the USA must also leave behind all assets). This way everyone is happy, the socialists get to be amongst their comrades, the free loaders get to hang out on their socialist buddies dollar, and the liberty loving remainder of citizens of the Republic that is the United States get to move on with their lives and their earnings still intact.

Everyone who is sick and tired of our health care system, or embarrassed the be an American because we just aren’t socialist enough to be a part of the cool crowd at the UN should have the right to emigrate to another nation of their choosing
who the heck are you are to tell us to emigrate...i would suggest you move to somalia. i heard its completely free market there and individual liberty is so highly regarded that they don't even believe in government. If you don't like our idea of universal health care, please do us a favor and join your comrades in africa.

I'm not asking anyone to leave, just giving everyone who hates our health care system and lack of socialism the right to let their feet do the talking. It is the socialists who constantly coo about how great it is in other countries. If it is so great why not emigrate?

It is the socialists who constantly coo about how great it is in other countries. If it is so great why not emigrate?

because its not practical...would you move to other countries once we become socialist and you keep complaining about socialism and how good other capitalistic coutries are ?

We should send appleannie to somalia where its a completely free market and complete freedom..no govt .haha.
For the rest of us who believe in collective progress, sharing and caring, lets push for universal health care.

San Jose,

No, I believe emigration is practical. It is the reason our founding fathers moved here in the first place. To seek a land where they could live in peace and prosperity without the restrictions on religion and such that existed in Europe and free from excessive government intrusion on private lives and property.

Please remember I am not making the argument that any nation is in any way superior to the USA as so many socialist and health care activists do. Canada this, UK that. If it is so great, emigrate.

We are not perfect but it is the only nation in the world I want to live in.

there is no place left for us to run … we will be forced to close ranks and hold off the hording bands of hungry dope smoking sexual deviant leftists. And that is why we keep buying guns and ammo … there are alot of liberal freaks that will get hungrier when all the producers stop sharing, so ammo is needed …. it’s a grasshopper and ant thing. See ya hopper.

US population is approx 300 million. lets divide all the resources ( water, land, labor and capital) in to 300 million parts and If you can produce something out of your share of resources...we will not bother you. deal ?

Please remember I am not making the argument that any nation is in any way superior to the USA as so many socialist and health care activists do. Canada this, UK that. If it is so great, emigrate.

We are not perfect but it is the only nation in the world I want to live in.
Nobody is saying these countries are superior...they are just saying that thier HEALTH CARE SYSTEM is superior. they love everything else about america..OK.

Get insurance companies and government out of health care and the bubble will burst.

And then what?

Who's the angel with the perfectly level head who'll pick apart the good bits from the bad bits and patch together the ideal system for us all? The reality is that some other swindler will step in and remove your money from a different pocket on your trousers.

What makes the most sense is that we all just flat-out refuse to ever fall ill or age.

Renter,

Yeah, if they love everything else why did you say we need to confiscate everyone's property and redistribute it every 10 years?

Yeah, if they love everything else why did you say we need to confiscate everyone’s property and redistribute it every 10 years?

because we have to do that eventually once the resources in US become limited and a bottleneck..we need to plan ahead...if you don't like the 10 years number, we can work on some other number which is agreable :-)

Without banning inheritence, we cannot give all god's kid equal oppurtunity ? can we ?
some kids will always have unfair advantage...especially once the resources become limited and it becomes a zero sum game.

Besides, I don't believe their health care systems are superior. If I get sick I want to get sick in the USA. Wouldn't you agree? Name a place in the world you would rather get sick in and I will chip in to pay for your move.

And in addition to top notch health care facilities in the USA we also are the home of most of the innovation in the form of pharmaceuticals. Not to shabby for a nation with one of the "lowest grade health care sytems" in the western world. The entire world is sucking off the nipple of American innovation.

renter for ever_san jose says

Yeah, if they love everything else why did you say we need to confiscate everyone’s property and redistribute it every 10 years?
because we have to do that eventually once the resources in US become limited and a bottleneck..we need to plan ahead…if you don’t like the 10 years number, we can work on some other number which is agreable
Without banning inheritence, we cannot give all god’s kid equal oppurtunity ? can we ?

some kids will always have unfair advantage…especially once the resources become limited and it becomes a zero sum game.

Achieving monetary equality is a socialist crack pipe dream. We are created equally but we are born with whatever the good Lord gave us. The state has no right to take away what God gives.

Without banning inheritence, we cannot give all god’s kid equal oppurtunity ? can we ?

I don’t believe their health care systems are superior. If I get sick I want to get sick in the USA. Wouldn’t you agree? YES ..IF YOU ARE RICH. if you are middleclass or poor, there are other countries to look forward to. BTW, if you haven't noticed, we moved to democracy long time back. We serve the interest of maximum number of people not just people who are rich.

renter for ever_san jose says

Without banning inheritence, we cannot give all god’s kid equal oppurtunity ? can we ?
I don’t believe their health care systems are superior. If I get sick I want to get sick in the USA. Wouldn’t you agree? YES ..IF YOU ARE RICH. if you are middleclass or poor, there are other countries to look forward to. BTW, if you haven’t noticed, we moved to democracy long time back. We serve the interest of maximum number if people not just people who are rich.

If that were true we would not be having this conversation.

we are born with whatever the good Lord gave us
utter B.S ..sounds like some crap that has no sound reasoning. it sounds like some taliban stuff.
looks like good lord has some favourites !

nobody is saying we want monetary equality. I am just saying equal oppurtunity for kids.

banning inheritance is in the pipleline...just wait for few years !

But didn't you just say:

renter for ever_san jose says

Nobody is saying these countries are superior…they are just saying that thier HEALTH CARE SYSTEM is superior. they love everything else about america..OK.

Renter,

Now you are saying we need health care reform and complete wealth redistribution? Sounds UN a lot of things to me:
beginning with unConstitutional

we are born with whatever the good Lord gave us
lord ordered all women to wear burkah's - Taliban

>Now you are saying we need health care reform and complete wealth redistribution? Sounds UN a lot of things to me:
beginning with unConstitutional

How did you feel about Trickle Down Economics? A different model of wealth redistribution.

renter for ever_san jose says

we are born with whatever the good Lord gave us

lord ordered all women to wear burkah’s

Don't fight it, you know it to be true. We are not all born with the same gifts that is why you are so much more intelligent than ( -fill in the blank).

who care's if its unconstitutional....I only care if its the right thing or not.
nobody is asking for complete wealth distribution. you can earn whatever you want and keep it yourself and spend it . .you just cannot pass it on to your kids because they didn't earn it, you earned it.
that way everybody starts from the same level and reap the benefits of thier labor not because of some unfair advantage.

How did you feel about Trickle Down Economics? A different model of wealth redistribution

Trickle down worked great in closed borders because the rich had to get services within border and thus part with thier money so everybody reaped the benefits..with globalization, the rich are getting services and labor from outside the countries so its not trickling down to US citizens..you saw how trickle down worked for the past decade ?right ?

we are born with whatever the good Lord gave us

we are not born with property ..ok..its utter bullshit to assume that.

Austinhousingbubble says

>Now you are saying we need health care reform and complete wealth redistribution? Sounds UN a lot of things to me:

beginning with unConstitutional

How did you feel about Trickle Down Economics? A different model of wealth redistribution.

I feel that "trickle down economics" is most often used to muddy the waters of real debate (by both the left and the right). It means little and adds little to this conversation. The rich always find a way to get richer, but that should not scare us as long as we have a Constitution which guarantees certain inalienable rights. In fact we should be happy to see our neighbor get rich. It means that there is hope for us too to prosper. And if he is our friend perhaps he will share his bounty with us as well (though we have no right to force or expect him to do so).

>.you just cannot pass it on to your kids because they didn’t earn it, you earned it.

Why? We don't have rights pass our wealth to whoever we choose?
Who decides this?

renter for ever_san jose says

who care’s if its unconstitutional….I only care if its the right thing or not.

nobody is asking for complete wealth distribution. you can earn whatever you want and keep it yourself and spend it . .you just cannot pass it on to your kids because they didn’t earn it, you earned it.

that way everybody starts from the same level and reap the benefits of thier labor not because of some unfair advantage.

This just plain doesn't make any sense. If I can spend my money any way I want when I am alive then if I die slowly I will have the opportunity to give all my possessions away before I die thus enabling me to cheat your dream of a system. But I am sure you have a great answer to that too right?

Why? We don’t have rights pass our wealth to whoever we choose?
Who decides this?

You have the same right as somebody else who has the right to take it away from you.

There is no logical reason for a person to have the right to pass on his property to someone else. you can pass on....personal stuff but not assets which belong to everybody else. land and capital is something which onces passed on to someone who didn't earn it, gives unfair advantage to them.

imagine a lion telling its cubs to stay away from a piece of forest when they grow up because that was passed on by an alpha lion to its cubs..do you think it will work.all lions have to earn thier alpha status not leech on to thier parents.

"This just plain doesn’t make any sense. If I can spend my money any way I want when I am alive then if I die slowly I will have the opportunity to give all my possessions away before I die thus enabling me to cheat your dream of a system. But I am sure you have a great answer to that too right?"

Thats why we have inheritance tax !! need to increase that rate soon.

people should earn thier own living after 21 years and anything they recieve after that age should be taxed.
We need GOOD public health and education to make sure all kids have equal oppurtunity.

Constitutionalist sez::

>>have to plagiarize from other posters

And there you go lying again. I explicitly attributed the malpractice cost to Kevin's post (and his link to the original data), which is what honest people do when they engage in scholarly writing. And you somehow want to imply there is fault in that.. Are you from some crazy Orwellian planet where right is wrong? I think you must be,.

>>but of course you would rather parse out percentages and call someone a liar rather than post an original damn idea or any research of your own.

Original damn idea? Research of your own? What on earth are you talking about? You're the one that pulled the 10% number out of your ass (which is an informal way of saying that you invented and fabricated the number to fit your own predetermined agenda). Is that what passes for "original research" in your universe? Phew. Shut up and go away, liar.

OTS sez:

>>Just Say No to socialism and tyranny, regardless of party affiliation.

What OTS is really trying to imply is that "if you are against tyranny, you must vote Republican, because our Republican tyrannts are better than the other ones".

This is utter baloney. Do not fall for this kind of tripe.

Paul Krugman on universal health insurance, an excellent article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/opinion/17krugman.html?src=twt&twt=nytimesopinion

Conclusion of the article:

"At this point, all that stands in the way of universal health care in America are the greed of the medical-industrial complex, the lies of the right-wing propaganda machine, and the gullibility of voters who believe those lies."

some of right wing-nuts are the most hypocrite people i have ever seen.
they preach that everybody needs to earn everything on thier own and then when we mention banning inheritance, they start pissing in thier pants. they believe that thier kids don't need to do that ( earn it)

feel that “trickle down economics” is most often used to muddy the waters of real debate (by both the left and the right). It means little and adds little to this conversation.

In fact, I think I'm adding a drop or two of real conversation to otherwise muddy and stagnant waters.

The rich always find a way to get richer, but that should not scare us

Being scared wasn't my point. We should be pissed, because it is wealth redistribution - something you apparently loathe. Larceny and book cooking, the real engines behind a disproportionate part of the wealth created in this country over the last two decades, culminating in programs like TARP and PPIP, which are far more heinous and downright exploitative to the taxpayer than Obama's plan. Yet, you seem indifferent, at best.

as long as we have a Constitution which guarantees certain inalienable rights.

Just curious - what were your feelings on the Military Commission's Act? What I have learned is that rights are conceptual and surprisingly yielding to culture, climate and suggestion.

In fact we should be happy to see our neighbor get rich. It means that there is hope for us too to prosper.

Yes. And we too can hold up a nickel in the mirror and see ten cents with our big doe eyes.

And if he is our friend perhaps he will share his bounty with us as well (though we have no right to force or expect him to do so)

I put it to you that no person or corporation or government entity should be able to package and sell health care. If you are a citizen of this country, contributing to the GDP, (in this case, 2/3rds of the GDP is based on consumer spending alone - so you are a valuable component, even when doing something as simple as buying a Karl's Jr bacon burger) then it is clearly in the country's interest to insure these precious agents of GDP. Health care is not a discretionary expense. Biodegrading is a built-in phenomena of our design. Gotta keep the cogs greased, so they can keep generating revenues. Whether you like it or not, our current system is categorically absurd to its very core, and anything to shake up the status quo is welcome and overdue.

At this point, all that stands in the way of universal health care in America are the greed of the medical-industrial complex, the lies of the right-wing propaganda machine, and the gullibility of voters who believe those lies"

I don't believe that all the voters are gullible..most people who oppose the bill are opposing because they know it well that the bill could change health care from market commodity ( which can be brought by money) to something which is rationed.IF I was not having problem with health care affordability and if i was rich , i would be opposed too...but then i am not the kind of person who believes that you get rich without the support of society !
you cannot be rich without somebody being poorer than you because rich is a relative term not absolute.

Austin,

I agree with you in many ways but lets clarify.

What I abhor is forced wealth redistribution such as when I against my will have to fund a federal government program not provided for in the Constitution. Selling a product or service and making a profit is not forced wealth redistribution (unless you are forced to purchase said product or service).

Larceny, and book cooking and any other illegal acts should be prosecuted.

People are more than cogs in a machine or workers in an economy. Yours and my value as a human being does not come from our ability to be productive in an economic sense. That kind of thinking will lead to many undesirable outcomes.

Selling a product or service and making a profit is not forced wealth redistribution (unless you are forced to purchase said product or service)
It is if you change public perception and prey on human flaws.most of the stuff thats sold in US now days is crap which people really don't need. I believe there are few industries which make real stuff that people need ( like farm produce..etc) everything else is bogus.
If you ban TV, movies and all media...80% of the crap in US won't even sell because its not stuff which people really need.

I agree with you in many ways but lets clarify.

What I abhor is forced wealth redistribution such as when I against my will have to fund a federal government program not provided for in the Constitution. Selling a product or service and making a profit is not forced wealth redistribution (unless you are forced to purchase said product or service).

This is the very thing they are doing with TARP and especially PPIP. PLEASE PLEASE do your research.

Larceny, and book cooking and any other illegal acts should be prosecuted.

Other than the odd head on a block to sate the public's teeth gnashing, Washington can't get out of its own way fast enough to open up a loophole here or cook up some policy there to help facilitate the exploits of Wall Street.

People are more than cogs in a machine or workers in an economy.

No, not really. Personally speaking, people are much more than mere apparatus, but compassion is a liability when it comes to industry, especially today. China's lowered the bar on what passes for human dignity and workers rights, and our subsidizing that culture as consumers is a vindication. We accept it, on some level. Did you know that airlines refer to you as self-loading cargo? You are but one in a million leavening agents, helping keep aloft this lead balloon, and therein lies your value to society. It's what makes you worth insuring. That is the order of the day.

Yours and my value as a human being does not come from our ability to be productive in an economic sense. That kind of thinking will lead to many undesirable outcomes.

I completely agree, and unfortunately, I think we are presently witness to many such outcomes.

Uh, the "voters" had nothing to do with the failure of the Clinton health plan.
It was an industry ad campaign that sank it--we never got a chance to vote on it.