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Peter P,

Maybe it's good karma. Or maybe they're what the Chinese call "debt collecting ghosts" who come back to spend all the money their parents made, because of the parents' bad karma.

They are at least more practical, especially when one has children and parents inhabiting their domicile.

Absolutely. In case everyone in the house eats something bad and needs to use the toilet NOW.

Maybe it’s good karma. Or maybe they’re what the Chinese call “debt collecting ghosts” who come back to spend all the money their parents made, because of the parents’ bad karma.

Perhaps. There is no escape.

Randy,

True enough. However, most McMansions are not occupied by multiple generations. Based on what I see, most are occupied by parents with 1 to 3 children, and quite a few are occupied by empty nesters who want space for the two weeks out of the year when their kids might be in town.

Even if you want to design multi-generational homes, there are better ways to build them than via McMansions. If I was designing for such a family, I'd want a first floor guest suite for the elderly grandparents, a fairly private suite for the parents, and smallish rooms + a study room for the kids. For the exterior, a safe and convenient exercise/play area for the young and the elderly.

Most McMansion communities don't have these spaces. Instead, they boast of large swaths of underused kitchens, foyer, dining room, living room, great room, etc.

I don't profess DinOR's hatred of McMansions. I just mourn the opportunities that were lost to create something truly liveable and nice.

Just in case you haven't experienced bathroom bottlenecks in a crowded house:

* Elderly mothers tend to occupy bathrooms for very long periods of time at entirely randomized times of the day.

* Children tend to require the use of bathrooms spontaneously and with little margin for error.

* Working parents tend to require bathroom time at times not open to much schedule flexibility.

And, you can't apply a Poisson distribution to the queuing, because seldom does one wish to immediately occupy the bathroom after another has vacated it. In very short order it is possible to find a 1 hour queue building for the bathroom in a family of five.

Peter P,

The house where I spent the first 8 years of my life had one toilet for 2 kids and 7 adults. I've lived most of the next 10 years with 2 adults and one bathroom. We managed, somehow.

Besides, reputable sushi places rarely serve contaminated fish. The risks are pretty low.

"astrid’s just a kid"

Huh? The ratio of bathroom to bums got much better once I hit college.

Thank you! Thank you!

I have always believed that the McMansion is just the modern version of the tract home. A KB home community is nothing more than a latter-day Levittown.

My in-laws live in a 1950's tract home that is every bit as shoddily constructed as any modern McMansion. In fact, if you want to see what a McMansion will look like 50 years from now, just visit my in-laws' house.

My in-laws' kitchen is "galley" style; "barely big enough to flip a pancake" just about covers it. There is tacky 1970's pressboard paneling throughout the living room. The dining room's light fixture was made to resemble like the steering wheel of a ship. The avacado green appliances are gone, but that's just becuase they broke. There were orginally just 2 bedrooms; they added a 3rd some years ago, but it does not have a seperate enterance; the only way to get to bedroom #3 is through bedroom #2! If the occupants of those two bedrooms are on differnet sleep schedules, the occupant of bedroom #2 gets rudely awakened early in the morning or late at night when the occupant of bedroom #3 wakes up or goes to bed. My in-laws have no garage, and a lot of the neighbors have only a 1 car garage.

The modern McMansion is far superior to this horrible place. I'd take a 5br/4ba 3,000 square foot monstrosity over my in-laws' place any day of the week. There

My gripe with McMansions is that so much space is wasted, and for such pretentious reasons. The two-story entrance and living room are really tacky, especially when it's just a middle class family home, not a Newport, RI mansion. I do like the space -- I just wish so much of it wasn't frittered away on two-story foyers, Jacuzzi tubs in the "master suite," etc. But having enough room is a good thing in my book.

Actually, when you think of it, the Craftsman house that all of the artsy types are so in love with today is just an earlier version of the McMansion. It was the tract home of its day. I mean, you could order them from the Sears catalog! To my mind, that is the very definition of a generic middle class home.

And it's funny, a lot of your turn of the 20th century homes are...pretty big! We rented an old farmhouse for a while when I was growing up, and that thing must have been 2,800 square feet, more if you include the full basement. All of the old farmhouses in my Midwestern town were pretty darned large. Yeah, people had more kids back then, but maybe 4 or 5, most families did not have 15 children even in that era.

Ever been to New York City brownstone? Today a lot of them are two- or four-family flats, but they were originally single family townhomes. They're big, too! How about a 1940's "working man's" apartment in a place like NYC's Styvessant village? Those things are huge, no 800 square foot units there, more like 1,800 -- and that's in a housing project in the middle of New York City!

I think McMansions get a lot of unfair criticism. They're big, yeah, but there are plenty of 1920 Craftsmen in my town that are just as big. And back in the days before KB, when people built their own farmhouses by hand, a lot of them built nice, big, spacious homes. And even urban living, like in a NYC brownstown, was originally pretty spacious. You could even argue that the cramped little suburban tract house of the 1950's is something of an historical anamoly. The McMansion is part of a well-established historical tradition of American homes.

The Mcmansions you speak of exsist in huge numbers out where my parents live. When I was growing up, I figured we must've been well off because we had a 2 story home with 3 bedrooms while most of the neighbors had single story ranchers and trailers.Well, These days they are building MASSIVE 5 and 6 bedroom houses with 3 car garages, 2 story decks, and enormous living rooms. What I dislike about them the most is that they're usually built on ugly pieces of land, given small yards with no trees, and for some inexplicable reason simply look cheap and generic to me.

C'mon astrid,

We probably all grew up that way.

a) Things were different then. Dad had priority, because he worked the "real job".

b) Mom worked around him.

c) Kids fit in where they could. And we didn't bathe daily until well past puberty. Often Mom plopped all the kids in the same tub, despite huge gaps in ages.

Was that really better than having adequate toilettage? I'm willing to go on record and say that I very much appreciate having enough bathrooms, and I am willing to make lifestyle decisions based upon that luxury. If that makes me an evil American conspicuous consumer, so be it.

Joe, the reason they built some of those houses so large back in the turn of the century was that the average family was expected to have a whole liter of kids. My grandad came from a family of 10 kids. So did most everyone else in his era.
As far as a ceiling fixture that looks like a steering wheel, that sounds freakin' awesome. I have a large pair of bull horns on my wall now, and a steering wheel chadalier would look great with it. I like weird old 50's houses, especially those that have hideously colored tiles in the bathroom.

You aught to see the house my brother owns. It's this teeny 2 bedroom deal built after the war. The kitchen houses the fridge, oven, microwave, washer, dryer, and everything else that's of that nature. The washer buts right up next to the oven. The bathroom has dining room fixtures screwed to the walls. The living room has this huge window that all the world can see right through.
but... he paid 46k for the whole thing, and he's 5 years younger than me!

WWII,

It's actually a ship's wheel. You know, for the "nautical" theme. The glass lightbulb enclsoures look like fog lamps. You'd love it.

They also have these giant wooden salad spoons affixed to the dining room wall. They like Aztec sculptures. Picture a totem pole made out of Aztec dieties with a spoon or fork on one end. Those things are family heirlooms that will never be sold. I've seen a lot of kitsch in my time, being from the blue collar Midwest and all, but nothing tops those salad spoons.

Randy,

Nothing wrong with lots of bathrooms.

Numerous members of my family (who've moved out of the old abode and into 2+ bathroom apartments) have dramatically changed their behavior. Reading and talking on the phone has become the norm, and they're showering daily now as opposed to bimonthly.

Though, the lack of first floor bathrooms is another one of my complaints about McMansions. Most of the smaller ones have only a half bathroom for the entire first floor, which means that on the rare occasion when the owners might entertain some people on the first floor public rooms, the guests have to trek to the private second floor bathrooms just to relieve themselves.

Joe Schmoe,

I was going to add a counter criticism that you covered. Tract homes quite often are more wasteful per land usage than McMansions. Most McMansions are not replacements within existing communities, but new developements. New developments inevitably have smaller lot sizes, and more inhabitable square footage on that land. There are lots of 2BR homes on tracts that have massive back yards and detached garages. A McMansion on 70% of the lot space can support 5BRs.

This is problem with comparative qualifying statements like too wasteful.

True also about the evolution of Brownstones and Graystones. In Chicago, pretty much all the Northside B/Gstones were SFHs when built. Over the years they converted to 3/4 family dwellings. When people in Lincoln Park started to buy those out and restore them as SFHs there was a holy hissy fit from the urban environmentalists about wasteful consumption, etc. I always found it funny that these same people showed up to oppose "Six-Pack" developments, which were condos of 6 units laid lengthwise across 2 city lots, usually replacing dilapidated row homes in gentrifying neighborhoods. Urban NIMBYism: call whatever you don't fancy "wasteful".

goober,

Ugh, sorry. At 18 I was going through my existentialist crises and doing all I can to avoid the light and other people :) Economics and critiques of American consumerism would have been the farthest thing on my mind.

The house where I spent the first 8 years of my life had one toilet for 2 kids and 7 adults. I’ve lived most of the next 10 years with 2 adults and one bathroom. We managed, somehow.

Wow. I can use two toilets myself.

Most of the smaller ones have only a half bathroom for the entire first floor, which means that on the rare occasion when the owners might entertain some people on the first floor public rooms, the guests have to trek to the private second floor bathrooms just to relieve themselves.

A half bath ought to be enough for floors without bedrooms.

They should also build homes with a dedicated cat litter room. It needs a cat door and a powerful, energy-saving, long-running exhaust fan.

The giant salad spoons in my grandparent's house had distorted 'pa and 'ma faces painted on them. Always gave me nightmares, along with all those damned little figurenes hiding in every single damned nook & cranny.

Goob,

Tread lightly on the personal provocations. Thanks.

Joe,
Our house had yellow appliances. Actually, I guess they were "autumn gold".To continue the theme, we had metallic gold carpet, yellow painted walls, and get this- the exterior was chocolate brown. My grandmother had those same huge wooden spoons in the kitchen. she later gave them to me, which I used as "decoration" inside my clubhouse. She also had these freaky looking pictures hanging up in the hallway. They were velvet paintings of precious moments looking children walking to go fishing. There were also lots of glass chickens in the kitchen. They were sort of abstract and painted strange colors- like green and orange. One of my friend's uncle had this plastic outhouse that sat on their toilet. If you opened the door to it, a little plastic clown would piss all over you. Hilarious.
It's funny to think about that stuff because out here, the stuff sells for a MINT. The ugly fake hide lamps shaped like flying saucers, figurines, and fake vinyl furniture all sell for oodles. Back home, people give it away. I've thought there aught to be an "import" business to ship it out here for all the yuppies to slobber over and buy. I'll be stinkin' rich!

Randy,

I hope I've established to your satisfaction that I'm not anti McMansions and McMansion-dwellers (cough in Mill Valley cough), I just think they're a very imperfect solution.

McMansions do use less land than older houses. But given that they give their owners basically no usable lot, the builders would do better just to build large 2 garage townhouses and insert good sound insulation between the houses.

BTW, I do agree with you that NIMBY zoning codes and zoning boards bear much of the blame for many of these unhappy solutions to a real need for more and better housing.

ww2,

I can set you up with a nearly inexhaustible supplier of those goods if you're serious. All you need are a couple of retired garage-sale hounds in the Ohio/Indiana borderlands.

Randy,

It's fine, goober likes to poke fun at how young I am. But I'm probably just 2 or 3 years younger than Peter P and WWII. Hell, I'm even older than Conor.

WWII,

And you say IKEA was bad taste! ;)

For the record, I do rent a McMansion in Mill Valley. I emphasize rent.

I've never lived in one of these before. I can sum up the positives:

* Plenty of bathrooms.

I can sum up the negatives:

* Tacky and cheap.

Hey, the rent is way below my theoretical PITI - tax deduction + alternate investment return - inflation - expected appreciation.

(All our pipes just started humming and whistling a couple of weeks ago too; oh the joys of renting from a clueless Specuvestor).

goober,

BTW, my main problem with kids is non of those things. I just can't justify their costs v. their potential utility. If my boyfriend ever hit it big in hedge fund management, I'll be happy to conside 2, 3, or even 4 kids.

OFGS, you're making me feel ancient. And I'm not even a Boomer, just on the leading edge of X.

Randy,
While I don't rent a Mcmansion, the house I rent is pretty old( 1916) but was more recently renovated. The only bad thing about is the shower, which is a sheet plastic liner that I've had to caulk several times already. If I ever get my own place, this will be the only place I'll spend the money. Tile all the way- either that or vintage stuff. The plastic sheeting has got to go.

(disclaimer: his IB higher level math 7 notwithstanding, my boyfriend profess absolutely no interest in money management, corporate law, management consulting, or anything else that would result in big money -- it's pretty much a hopeless situation)

Randy,

I know, that's why I said dweller;) Sorry. If I was in your situation, I'd do exactly the same thing.

PS - Randy, that's not my job anymore. That's Conor's job.

If I was in your situation, I’d do exactly the same thing.

I'm not sure I would. But I'm existential about such things.

I don't have a problem with McMansions, it is just a style of home like Victorian or Colonial. Many 1900 era Victorians around here (VA) are McMansion sized, 3,000 sqft or more. They seem to be quality built, but that may be from original construction or from renovation.

If someone has saved his money and wants the benefits of lots of space, I see no problem. I just have a distaste for a McMansion Heights whole neighborhood of fiscal fools pushing a facade of wealth, inhabited by the couple so stretched out financially that wife yells at husband for wasting money on a candy bar. No problem with a new Expedition though.

Oh. so this is "McMansions are not bad" thread. Just a few threads ago they were bad.

I like McMansions. I do not like the 40 year old floor plans in Cupertino at all. In every such house the first thing you notice after entry is kitchen ! There is nothing pretty, classy etc about these plans.

I need big kitchen, big bathroom and a big room for a big TV. Rest is too subtle for me.

Astrid says:

The house where I spent the first 8 years of my life had one toilet for 2 kids and 7 adults. I’ve lived most of the next 10 years with 2 adults and one bathroom. We managed, somehow

In the '60s when we were at my grandparents house in central VA, we had to take a bath in a steel tub with well water heated in a kettle on a cast iron stove. The toilet was an outhouse 50 yards from the house. However, nothing beats the fresh eggs we gathered from the henhouse, or the fresh veggies from the garden (no pesticides). Also, nothing beats the taste of water from that well. We also used kerosene lamps since they did not get electricity until the 70s. None of us live like that today, of course, but the place was great fun during extended family gatherings.

SP,

I don't completely agree with you. I know people who can afford the "real thing" but chose not to. Sometimes, it's just not efficient to spend $100K on a deck, even if you're extremely wealthy. If a knock off Gucci bag will satisfy the social pressures without spending the money on a real Gucci bag.

SP,

Do you still smell like elephant piss?

Cheers!

Headset,

My first home was not a matter of eccentric grandparents. The house I lived in didn't get indoor plumbing until the late 1970s. Even now, there are legal residents (as opposed to slum dwellers) in Shanghai who don't have indoor plumbing and are forced to use waste buckets and public latrines.

I guess I have a tendancy to mildly mock Peter P's (and maybe my own) sybaritic tastes and expectations.

SP,

Good grief, did you memorize all the Monty Python episodes?

SQT says,

I live in what some here would refer to as a stucco $hitbox, but frankly I like it. It’s almost 2000 sqft with an excellent floorplan.

Who would call that a $hitbox? That sounds like a practical, desireable home. Especially if it is paid for or has a low financial drain.

There's something to be said for imitation and the " real thing" For example, one of my hubcaps came off my toyota truck. It is 11 years old, and the dealership wanted $75 PER HUBCAP! So.. I went to Kragen and bought a box of 4 fake plastic chrome hubcaps for $30. Ghetto. Nothing else describes the way my truck looks now. Anyone can tell that those "rims" on my truck are cheapo plastic. It doesn't feel or look cool at all. That's the same way I feel about fake wood and cheapy interiors on some of these massive houses.