patrick.net

Oops, Got the red team, blue team thing confused. I meant:

1) For the most part, they have supported only the Blue team of the Republicrat party. Smarter groups, such as the bankers and ethanol manufacturers, take a balanced approach by cycling a portion of their government take to both sides.

2) Until recently, the public sector unions have largely ignored the public. There is a void the Red team is filling with stories of incompetence and excess compensation. The average Joe knows absolutely nothing about PS unions aside from his time in public school and his tax bill.

Feel free to point out any other goofs.

Thanks.

Clarence 13X says

Maybe the myth is that teachers can do what BAD PARENTS refuse to do….raise a child. We could pay teachers 100K a year and still get the same results.

I agree. but when yout figure in the value of their pensions and other benefits, they are probably already making at least 100K/yr.

zzyzzx says

when yout figure in the value of their pensions and other benefits, they are probably already making at least 100K/yr

"At least ?" Why do people need to exaggerate so much ?

In the very highest paid cities in this country, the very senior most teachers almost make that much if you include benefits (93K or so). But the average (SENIOR TEACHER) in other words THE AVERAGE HIGHEST PAY INCLUDING BENEFITS FOR THE MOST SENIOR TEACHERS ( YOU KNOW AFTER TEACHING 10 TO 20 YEARS) from say the 40 highest paid (metropolitan areas), would be closer to 75K.

Please look it up before arguing with me. Note: in many places, we pay in to our pension funds out of our salary.

marcus says

zzyzzx says

when yout figure in the value of their pensions and other benefits, they are probably already making at least 100K/yr

“At least ?” Why do people need to exaggerate so much ?
In the very highest paid cities in this country, the very senior most teachers almost make that much if you include benefits (93K or so). But the average (SENIOR TEACHER) in other words THE AVERAGE HIGHEST PAY INCLUDING BENEFITS FOR THE MOST SENIOR TEACHERS ( YOU KNOW AFTER TEACHING 10 TO 20 YEARS) from say the 40 highest paid (metropolitan areas), would be closer to 75K.
Please look it up before arguing with me. Note: in many places, we pay in to our pension funds out of our salary.

What they get from their pensions is quite a bit and worth more than the equivalent of 25K per year in equivalent salary.

zzyzzx says

What they get from their pensions is quite a bit and worth more than the equivalent of 25K per year in equivalent salary.

Okay, well I'm a high school teacher in one of the well paid cities, and also I have a masters degree in Math. So I am more than capable of calculating it's worth. We pay in 8% of our salary in (it comes out of our salary). The district pays an additional 8.25%, and the state pays about 2% more (although in some years not, in others a bit more.

You can't count the part that I pay in. Only the 10.25% that the government pays on top of my salary. So, sorry to burst your bubble, but for teachers at the VERY VERY top of the scale, top seniority, plus highest additional education credits, gets a pension benefit worth close to 8K (above my salary). In other words, it's worth about 16K but 8k or so of that comes out of my salary.

If you want to argue that the unfunded liablitly makes it worth more, than okay, maybe a bit more, but we will see adjustments for that. So say it's worth 10 or 12K above my salary. Add health care and you might be up to 20K or more.

You can say it over and over. It doesn't make it true.

EightBall says

Clarence 13X says

Maybe the myth is that teachers can do what BAD PARENTS refuse to do….raise a child. We could pay teachers 100K a year and still get the same results.

YES - but I do have one thing to add…we aren’t raising CHILDREN…we are raising ADULTS.
Good to see you back around Clarence.

Glad to be back learning from others.

marcus says

You can’t count the part that I pay in. Only the 10.25% that the government pays on top of my salary. So, sorry to burst your bubble, but for teachers at the VERY VERY top of the scale, top seniority, plus highest additional education credits, gets a pension benefit worth close to 8K (above my salary). In other words, it’s worth about 16K but 8k or so of that comes out of my salary.
If you want to argue that the unfunded liablitly makes it worth more, than okay, maybe a bit more, but we will see adjustments for that. So say it’s worth 10 or 12K above my salary. Add health care and you might be up to 20K or more.

I have a few questions that may help me understand how the pension system works. I present these questions out of curiousity, not to be snide.

Should you be able to work 30 years, retire to a pension funded by my tax dollars that matched your 8.5% investment?
Do all teachers think it is ok that taxpayers fund their retirement?
Am I missing something in terms of how this pension is funded?

I really dont want to fund others retirement with my tax dollars, even good teachers like yourself. The only solution to the poor education in this country is enthusiastic students who come from stable 2 parent homes.

@Marcus

I was a substitute teacher years ago in California.

There was an interesting analysis showing the average teacher salary/ave. salary in general by country. I remember it was highest in South Korea. The US was rather on the other side. I'll try to find it...

Some of the criticisms of teachers are valid, *but*
I also believe much of the force behind the attack on educators is induced by the "divide and conquer" strategy of elites.

Clarence 13X says

Should you be able to work 30 years, retire to a pension funded by my tax dollars that matched your 8.5% investment?
Do all teachers think it is ok that taxpayers fund their retirement?

Forgive me Clarence, but your question is silly. I'll answer it with a question.

Whatever you think you should be willing to pay teachers (with your taxes),... would it be okay with you if 88% of that amount was paid to me in salary and the other 12% was paid to me in the form of a matching contribution to my pension ?

American in Japan says

I also believe much of the force behind the attack on educators is induced by the “divide and conquer” strategy of elites.

Yes, I agree. Too bad more don't see it.

shrekgrinch says

The public education union bubble is going to crash eventually

I doubt it. But if you were right,...that is if your wish comes true, then it is one huge step further in the split between the haves and the have nots.

I can get a good job in a private school. But I would hate to see my idea of what America is end. Maybe it already has. I guess that's what you are all about.

marcus says

Clarence 13X says
Should you be able to work 30 years, retire to a pension funded by my tax dollars that matched your 8.5% investment?
Do all teachers think it is ok that taxpayers fund their retirement?
Forgive me Clarence, but your question is silly. I’ll answer it with a question.
Whatever you think you should be willing to pay teachers (with your taxes),… would it be okay with you if 88% of that amount was paid to me in salary and the other 12% was paid to me in the form of a matching contribution to my pension ?

It was a sincere question, its unfortunate you choose to engage in snide remarks. I have no understanding of how the system works. So, to recap what you said without calling you a tard or silly....

....we pay teachers a salary + whatever percentage is paid into their pensions.

Thanks.

Yeah, them teachers sure didn't get no specialized degree, certifications, or continuing education. They sat on their lazy buts collecting the hard earned stolen tax dollars that were snatched away from college drop-out red blooded all-American IT workers who get paid to sit on their buts in cubicles playing with their joysticks.

It's not like them lazy good for nothin' teachers put up with those spoiled brats who are the progeny of over paid college drop out IT professionals all day.

You know, I'm so tired of reading arguments between jealous over-worked and underpaid workers who seem to be fighting over an ever shrinking pot of money that is constantly being sucked dry by the top 1% who cleverly continue to stoke the flames of class warfare through sound bites hurled at both sides by their special interest groups. Why can't we Americans who work for a living learn to support one another? If we don't soon it will be entirely too late. The super rich are eating a feast while the rest of us fight amongst ourselves for the scraps they throw at us. Wake up America!

simchaland says

You know, I’m so tired of reading arguments between jealous over-worked and underpaid workers who seem to be fighting over an ever shrinking pot of money that is constantly being sucked dry by the top 1% who cleverly continue to stoke the flames of class warfare through sound bites hurled at both sides by their special interest groups. Why can’t we Americans who work for a living learn to support one another?

Point taken.

@simchaland

"You know, I’m so tired of reading arguments between jealous over-worked and underpaid workers who seem to be fighting over an ever shrinking pot of money that is constantly being sucked dry by the top 1% who cleverly continue to stoke the flames of class warfare through sound bites hurled at both sides by their special interest ..."

As I said divide and conquer... and it's working pretty well. How many people watch only Fox News or believe Rush Limbaugh, etc.

Teacher Truth = Washington, DC public schools spend an incredible amount of money per each student .... at one time, it was the highest ratio in the entire country. Question: why is it one of the worst school systems in the entire country? If you listen to the Left, money is the answer, what's the question?

Clarence 13X says

So, to recap what you said without calling you a tard or silly….

….we pay teachers a salary + whatever percentage is paid into their pensions.

Thanks.

Saying your question is silly isn't calling you names. You said,

"Do all teachers think it is ok that taxpayers fund their retirement? "

MY point is that it is just part of our compensation. Here I will put it differently, and this is a quote out of the Hoover commissions report.

Today, the pension system is regarded as deferred compensation – the perceived tradeoff of earning a lower salary in the public sector in exchange for a good retirement package.

Your question as to whether we teachers all think the government should match what we pay in to the pension ? It's just part of our compensation. By the way, we don't pay in to social security, nor does our employer pay the matching 6.2% for SS (we also don't receive SS except for a substantially reduced amount if we paid in enough years before teaching - but then the state pension would be lower).

Most people commenting on teacher compensation and most people going to work for the government (or anywhere else) see the benefits as part of the compensation. That is they view their compensation in total. Certainly they view the cost of their compensation (to their employer) in total.

If you had asked me whether all teachers think they are worth, or whether they deserve the total cost to the taxpayers of their compensation (including benefits), then I would say yes, they sure do. And that is not a silly question.

I'm not sure whether you understand why the question was silly. I tried to explain it. To understand my response is to understand that it was a silly question.

And by the way, @zzyzzx

When I was trying to clarify for you that our pension benefit isn't nearly what you say, I didn't subtract out the 6.2% for SS, versus the 8.25% (plus 2% from the state) that we get. SO what we get for comparison purposes to the private sector costs the government something along the lines of 4% of our salary. But if our pay is 4% or more below private industry then you might be able to comprehend the lies being told by Koch, Murdoch and others.

Some will scream that the unfunded liabilities will eventually cost more, and they will raise our member contributions and the employer side contributions. So that 4% number is too low. Okay then add a few percent to it.

Still if people were willing to look at the numbers, they would understand that their envy and dishonesty is just so much hooey.

Here in Leyden Township, the average High School teacher salary is $90,000. The highest paid teachers make almost twice that. This is in an area where the average family income is under $60,000.

I didn't have any idea of what the local schools were costing until I got my 2009 property tax bill of almost $6000. This is on a house we bought for $200,000 in 2008. 2/3 of the tax bill is for two High Schools and two Elementary schools.

Here's a list of the top 100 Illinois teacher salaries. Nearly all of them are in the suburban Chicago area:

http://www.championnews.net/article.php?sid=3042

There's a couple of comparisons of Social Security and teacher's pensions.

The SSA website says:

"For example, for a worker retiring at age 66 in 2011, the amount is $2,366. This figure is based on earnings at the maximum taxable amount for every year after age 21."

Social Security maxes out at $28392/yr. The recipient must be at least 66 years old.

In Illinois, a teacher can retire at 50% pay with 20 years on the job. A teacher in my district might get a pension $45,000 starting in his mid to late 50s. Actually, it's unlikely that the 20 year teachers will be retiring at the average salary as salary increases with seniority and pension spiking is common.

Social Security contributions are 50/50 between the employer and employee. Here, it's closer to 80/20 between the taxpayer and the teacher:

http://www.championnews.net/article.php?sid=3218

@Cook County resident

I think in this township they are overpaid...However, I wonder if in terms of pay, this area is an extreme case.

American in Japan says

@Cook County resident
I think in this township they are overpaid…However, I wonder if in terms of pay, this area is an extreme case.

The salaries at the Leyden High Schools aren't extreme in Suburban Chicago:

—About 4 percent of teachers statewide earned $100,000 or more — 5,457 teachers — but the vast majority worked in the Chicago suburbs, with heavy concentrations in north Cook, DuPage and Lake counties. In all, 32 Chicago-area districts paid at least 20 percent of their teachers six figures — five times the state average.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-07-14/news/ct-met-six-figure-salaries-20100714_1_school-teachers-salaries-six-figure

Cook County resident says

Here’s a list of the top 100 Illinois teacher salaries. Nearly all of them are in the suburban Chicago area:

There's something misleading about those numbers. They refer to them as salary, but they must be total compensation. Niles west which I know used to be one of the highest paying schools in the country is where the 3rd guy on the list teaches. This says the average teacher salary is 70K. http://www.schools-data.com/schools/NILES-WEST-HS-SKOKIE.html

It very clear to me that these numbers are AT LEAST, total compensation, including health care and pension cost. Even then, and obviously teachers who have taught for over 20 years. There's no denying the pay is high though.

Why do I say at least ? Because I think they also include additional pay, such as summer school and pay for taking on responsibilities on top of teaching. For example coaching. There are PE teachers on the list.

I guess it depends on how you define "salary."

Cook County resident says

In Illinois, a teacher can retire at 50% pay with 20 years on the job

As long as they are over what age ?

Cook County resident says

teacher in my district might get a pension $45,000 starting in his mid to late 50s.

Cook County resident says

A teacher in my district might get a pension $45,000 starting in his mid to late 50s.

Wrong.

marcus says

Cook County resident says

In Illinois, a teacher can retire at 50% pay with 20 years on the job

As long as they are over what age ?

Starting this year, pensions are determined on a two tier basis. Right now it's as early as 55.

Here's a quote from the TRS website:

"# Members can retire at age 55 with full benefits if they have 35 years of service credit accumulated; if the member has elected to have his/her pension determined by the 2.2% formula and paid the required fee."

OK, with the 2.2% formula, it's more like 23 years. And the pension rules are considerably less generous for those who signed on this year.

http://trs.illinois.gov/subsections/legislative/SB1946.htm#ezguide

Cook County resident says

teacher in my district might get a pension $45,000 starting in his mid to late 50s.

Cook County resident says

A teacher in my district might get a pension $45,000 starting in his mid to late 50s.

Wrong.

OK, so what do they actually make?

Somehow the quote function got confused. To make it clearer, I said:

Starting this year, pensions are determined on a two tier basis. Right now it’s as early as 55.

Here’s a quote from the TRS website:

“# Members can retire at age 55 with full benefits if they have 35 years of service credit accumulated; if the member has elected to have his/her pension determined by the 2.2% formula and paid the required fee.”

OK, with the 2.2% formula, it’s more like 23 years. And the pension rules are considerably less generous for those who signed on this year.

http://trs.illinois.gov/subsections/legislative/SB1946.htm#ezguide

marcus--

Those are salaries, not total compensation--but it does include summer school and activities (clubs, sports, etc.). Teachers in North and NW suburban Chicago do very well.

I generally don't think teachers are overpaid, but in District 214 (or 211 I can't remember)--a high school district in NW Chicago, the average drivers ED instructor makes something like $110K. That's a bit ridiculous.

Cook County resident says

OK, so what do they actually make?

I was just saying wrong, because I can not believe that the highest multiplier kicks in at age 55. I see that it does (but only if you have 35 years in). How does someone have 35 years in at age 55 ? Otherwise it would appear they have to wait til 60 to get the highest multiplier. Or have 6 percent per year subtracted.

Not denying it's a great deal. It's called attracting good people to the profession, and compensating them well for sticking with it.

marcus says

Cook County resident says

OK, so what do they actually make?

I was just saying wrong, because I can not believe that the highest multiplier kicks in at age 55. I see that it does (but only if you have 35 years in). How does someone have 35 years in at age 55 ? Otherwise it would appear they have to wait til 60 to get the highest multiplier. Or have 6 percent per year subtracted.
Not denying it’s a great deal. It’s called attracting good people to the profession, and compensating them well for sticking with it.

35 years at 55? Maybe there's some doublesecret way to double count some years. Who knows? Illinois government can be, to put it nicely, murky.

And maybe the schools are attracting the best people possible. How would we know? The test scores in Leyden are usually just below average to average.

marcus says

There’s something misleading about those numbers. They refer to them as salary, but they must be total compensation. Niles west which I know used to be one of the highest paying schools in the country is where the 3rd guy on the list teaches. This says the average teacher salary is 70K. http://www.schools-data.com/schools/NILES-WEST-HS-SKOKIE.html

Teacher salaries have been rising rapidly and schools-data hasn't kept up. The most recent Niles West report card says teacher salaries now average $96,850. There's a link to the Report Card here:

http://sharepoint.niles-hs.k12.il.us/webdocs/School%20Report%20Cards/Forms/AllItems.aspx

marcus says

This says the average teacher salary is 70K. http://www.schools-data.com/schools/NILES-WEST-HS-SKOKIE.html

Interesting data.

"Operating expenditure for instruction: $31,295,899
Operating expenditure for supporting services: $30,952,651
Operating expenditure for administration: $613,630"

What are the "supporting services" that cost virtually as much as instruction, and more if "administration" is added? With "administration" stated at incredibly low 1% of the total expense, a large part of said "services" is clearly administration, re-classified to avoid attention. Here is the place to look for serious money, BOTH cutting the cost AND increasing the salaries of best teachers.

The data stretch credulity in other ways, btw:

"HS graduation rate for white students: 89.0%
HS graduation rate for black students: 93.8%
HS graduation rate for Hispanic students: 88.6%
HS graduation rate for Asian students: 92.7%"

So black students are the best academic performers, ahead not only of
whites but even Asians. Sure :->)

marcus says

There’s something misleading about those numbers. They refer to them as salary, but they must be total compensation. Niles west which I know used to be one of the highest paying schools in the country is where the 3rd guy on the list teaches. This says the average teascher salary is 70K. http://www.schools-data.com/schools/NILES-WEST-HS-SKOKIE.html
It very clear to me that these numbers are AT LEAST, total compensation, including health care and pension cost. Even then, and obviously teachers who have taught for over 20 years. There’s no denying the pay is high though.

As I understand it, teachers get automatic increases based on seniority. So I'm sure you're right about most of the highest paid teachers being there for over 20 years. More than that, will also get paid for the hours they put in for extracurricular activities. I expect the most senior teachers will get first choice of the extracurricular activities.

There are a disproportionate number of gym teachers on the top 100 list.

I have no problem believing that a high seniority teacher might get almost double the average salary. Given the pension rules, there is a strong incentive for pension spiking.

By the way, the average salary at Niles West has now gone up to $96,850. They use the term "salary", not "total compensation". This comes from their School Report Card which can be found at:

http://sharepoint.niles-hs.k12.il.us/webdocs/School%20Report%20Cards/Forms/AllItems.aspx

Bill Zettler came up with the top 100 salary list. He writes about the difference between salary and total compensation:

"We often hear in the media and from the teachers unions how teachers are overworked and underpaid. The number commonly thrown about is $43,000 per year for average teacher salary nationwide. Here in Illinois it is about $60,000/yr according to state actuaries."

"What is not discussed is "Total Compensation" which is the total value of a given job based upon not only salary but including indirect compensation such as pensions and time off which if provided directly would involve increased salary to the employee. "Total Compensation" then is the total value of the job to the employee and the total cost to the employer. The teachers' employers are the taxpayers of Illinois."

http://www.championnews.net/article.php?sid=1104

Cook County resident says

Teacher salaries have been rising rapidly and schools-data hasn’t kept up. The most recent Niles West report card says teacher salaries now average $96,850. There’s a link to the Report Card here:

All I am telling you is that this is total compensation including benefits, or something else is off.

"Salaries and counts of staff are summed across a district
based on the percentage of time that each individual is
employed as a teacher or an administrator and may or may
not reflect the actual paid salaries for the district. "

MAybe they are annualizing it, to account for summer off. That's a bit unfair, because it is a burnout job, with a lot of time put in weekends.

Find a current salary schedule, even if it doesn't support the conclusion that you wish to see.

Correction. I believe you are right. The salary schedule can be found here. See pages 52 - 54. It takes along time to load. Including stipends for extra work done, I guess your number is correct.

http://www.niles-hs.k12.il.us/sites/default/files/NTFTContract2009-2012.pdf

marcus says

All I am telling you is that this is total compensation including benefits, or something else is off.

“Salaries and counts of staff are summed across a district
based on the percentage of time that each individual is
employed as a teacher or an administrator and may or may
not reflect the actual paid salaries for the district. ”

MAybe they are annualizing it, to account for summer off. That’s a bit unfair, because it is a burnout job, with a lot of time put in weekends.

Find a current salary schedule, even if it doesn’t support the conclusion that you wish to see.

The Leyden Township High School website lists starting salaries. They are:

Starting Teacher Salaries

BA* $49,049

MA* $56,642

*Salaries include Board paid 9% TRS

So the 9% pension contribution is included as part of the salary. Teacher benefits are to the immediate right of the salaries, and there is no indication that they included in the salary.

http://www.leyden212.org/jobs/salary.htm

By the way, it's real estate taxes that fund the difference of chicago suburban teachers compared to other Illinois teachers. Apparently good public schools are important to a lot of people.

California on the other hand, would rather hold RE taxes down. When prop 13 passed, it was the real estate buying opportunity of a lifetime. Now values have gone up so much, in part because of the lower taxes, and people have to pay as much as they would if RE taxes were higher anyway. It's just more going to the previous owner in the one time effect of holding property taxes too low, and less going to public services. It's not rocket science to see that this doesn't work.

(see Troy and Georgism)

Cook County resident says

Bill Zettler came up with the top 100 salary list. He writes about the difference between salary and total compensation:

“We often hear in the media and from the teachers unions how teachers are overworked and underpaid. The number commonly thrown about is $43,000 per year for average teacher salary nationwide. Here in Illinois it is about $60,000/yr according to state actuaries.”

“What is not discussed is “Total Compensation” which is the total value of a given job based upon not only salary but including indirect compensation such as pensions and time off which if provided directly would involve increased salary to the employee. “Total Compensation” then is the total value of the job to the employee and the total cost to the employer. The teachers’ employers are the taxpayers of Illinois.”

OK, I'm coming out because this is getting ridiculous.

My father taught in District 214 in the Northwest Suburbs of Chicago for over 30 years. He was a high school English and Reading teacher who taught both the remedial classes and the advanced placement classes. District 214 is the highest paying district in Illinois. And it's one of the best performing school districts in Illinois too. Of course, in Illinois schools are funded through property taxes that are collected locally and the house owners of District 214 are generally well-off. Their property values are relatively high and they are relatively stable. School districts in Illinois are funded locally, not through a giant pool of State money. If your district has lots of house owners and has relatively stable property values, you have good schools. If your district is poor and has few house owners your schools suck. The amount of property taxes collected in a district is directly proportional to the amount of money each school district gets. And the disparities in Illinois are stunning.

Anyway, my father taught over 35 years. He taught over 30 years in District 214. It took him 4 masters degrees, various certifications, becoming a reading specialist, teaching both remedial and AP at the same time, becoming a curriculum developer, being an innovator in pedagogy district wide, being concession stand director, being a girls track coach, and 30 years in the same high school in the same district to make close to $100k per year. He retired in 2005 when the governor allowed some teachers to count their sick days as pension years at the age of 64. Dad had over 2 years in sick days accumulated because he didn't call in sick unless he was bed-ridden. That was considered "early retirement" in his district. The deal was cut so that higher earners like my Dad could retire paving the way for new teachers who could be paid less to be hired to take their places saving the state money.

One misconception many have about teacher pensions in Illinois is that once a teacher retires they can draw Social Security. That simply isn't the case. As part of the deal of being in the Illinois Teacher Retirement Plan, my father wasn't allowed to contribute to social security. The money he would have contributed to social security through paycheck deductions went into his pension fund. Also, the deduction for his pension was above and beyond the 6.25% required by social security. These are deferred wages to be collected after retirement.

Yes, the taxpayers paid my father for the work he did for the taxpayers for educating his children. When my father died after just over a year of retirement (he didn't get much time to enjoy it) the Chicago Tribune and the Northwest Suburban Daily Herald ran articles about him. He was well known as an innovator in his district and his students adored him. He ran into former students wherever he and my Mom would go on vacation. I ran into former students of his when I went to NIU and they all told me that they really respected and admired my father. At the wake and the funeral, we had over 200 visitors. The cars in the funeral train to the cemetery ran 2 miles through the small town where my parents chose to retire.

It was obvious that my Dad was an extraordinary teacher. I never knew how amazing he really was at what he did until he died. Oh, I had an idea because I was told over and over again by former students but really, the funeral and newspaper articles made a huge impression on me.

So, when people write about bad public school teachers, it makes my blood boil. I knew many of my Dad's colleagues. My Dad was an excellent teacher and deserved every penny he earned. My Dad would be up late nights doing something related to his job. He would be developing curriculum, lesson plans, grading papers, calling parents of students, and even answering questions online from students helping them with homework. He made his own website for his classes with reading material and instruction so that his students could use these tools and contact him if they had questions. He taught himself HTML and some javascript. Also he taught himself how to do graphics. He was brilliant and highly motivated. I would get up at 3am sometimes when I couldn't sleep only to find him still working. He would go to school on Saturdays and offered an open classroom on Saturdays for students who wanted to come in and do their work and get extra help. That means he had 1 day off per week. Even on Sundays he'd do some work at home. No, I really don't remember a time where my Dad just sat on his butt doing nothing.

Summers were time for him to clean his classroom and prepare for the next school year. Also he'd be taking classes and workshops. He actually earned 3 of his masters degrees while working as a teacher in District 214.

Let's clear up another misconception. He did not get paid for summers at all. He could choose to have his pay spread out over 12 months or he could have chosen to be paid the full amount when school was in session. When I was a little boy he would take summer jobs in order to make ends meet.

Did we live lavishly on his salary? No. My clothes were hand-me-downs from cousins. It was rare that I had new clothes. We never had the latest and greatest toys or television sets, etc. We didn't really go on vacation as a family until I was about 10 because we simply couldn't afford it. Then we only went up to Wisconsin and rented a cabin with the family that lived next door to us so we could share expenses. The kids of the people I went to school with "who paid his salary" took vacations to Europe, Disneyland/Disneyworld, and took cruises in the Caribbean. We never had such vacations. And we always had to time vacation around the school schedule and Dad's time that he needed to prepare adequately for the coming school year. There were times where we were broke and we had little food in the house when I was little. Oh we never starved. But we knew that we had to spend pennies very wisely.

Also, in Illinois the Teachers Retirement Plan is over 60% underfunded. The taxpayers of the State of Illinois have been taking money that should have gone into funding pensions to fund other areas of Illinois government. Illinois has an extremely bad record in meeting its promises that it made to teachers.

When Dad retired, I think he got something like 75% to 80% of his former income in pension payments. My parents never felt it was necessary to share all of their financials with me. Now remember, he wasn't able to participate in Social Security so my Dad received nothing from Social Security when he retired. That's not a bad deal, but it sure isn't the retirement that other people who worked far less than my Dad did get who didn't have to get 4 masters degrees, etc.

My Mom worked to supplement the family income for most of my childhood. That was a necessity, not a choice. She draws her meager Social Security payments from having earned much less than "Super Moms" who had "careers" because even though she did work, she made sure she was there for us when we weren't in school when Dad was working (which was most of the time as I said above.)

Now that Dad died, she's doing OK. She's living here in Oakland. She's living off of a much reduced pension payment from the Illinois Teachers Retirement (I think it might be 50% or less). Again, my Mom doesn't share all of her financials with me. She does get her small Social Security payments to supplement that. And my Dad did have life insurance. They also had a small IRA (small because there really wasn't much left over to fund it on a teacher's salary once they bought what was necessary to raise a family.) And she did sell their house getting soaked because she sold it just after the housing market crashed. She was just too lonely in a small town in Illinois so she wanted to live closer to me.

Anyway, I agree that the taxpayers are the teachers employers. So what? They provide a valuable service for the taxpayers who pay their salaries. Most teachers do an excellent job. There are always bad apples in every bunch. And the teachers we normally hear about are the bad ones. It's rare when a story like my Dad's gets told. And having known many teachers while growing up, I do know that the majority of teachers are doing a great job. They deserve adequate compensation and secure retirements for the services they provide to the children of taxpayers (and the taxpayer parents too).

Teaching isn't an easy profession at all. It's not very well respected. My Dad told me, "Son, don't become a teacher. We don't get paid very well and very few people respect the important work that we do." So what did I do? I became a psychotherapist working in community mental health for a non-profit. We get paid less than teachers and our retirements are far from secure! Dad laughed at the irony.

If most people knew what it takes to be even a decent teacher just meeting standards, they'd be blown away. I know what it takes to be an excellent teacher. The work hours really suck because you are never really done. You take your work home with you. In order to make a living wage for a family you have to do extra jobs like coaching, concession stand operator, etc... And your spouse must work if you expect to raise a family covering any emergencies that come up in life.

Starting salaries suck. It takes many years to work your way up to something more livable. Average salaries in District 214, 211, and 219 (the districts for which I'm familiar and that pay the highest) are misleading because teachers in these districts tend to be longer serving in their districts because these are great school districts with good funding and decent pay. Therefore they have worked their way up to higher salaries after 10 or so years of service. I don't have the statistics here but my Dad said that in his district the average teacher had over 10 years of service. Other school districts have lower averages of service and would consequently have lower average salaries.

It's very difficult for a new teacher to get hired in those school districts simply because once a teacher gets hired into these districts (and the competition is fierce so they are some of the best teachers in Illinois) he or she has no desire to leave their district.

OK, I'm getting off of my soapbox now. I'm really quite tired of reading and hearing all of this crap about "the taxpayers are teacher's employers" and therefore somehow they should be everyone's bitch and get paid crap with no secure retirement, no job security, and no benefits. Firemen and police are employed by the taxpayers too. Let's try to remember that. These professions including teaching are vital to our country's health and prosperity. Teachers provide an essential service to the community and are required to meet very high standards.

Oh, and you get what you pay for. End of story.

marcus says

Correction. I believe you are right. The salary schedule can be found here. See pages 52 - 54. It takes along time to load. Including stipends for extra work done, I guess your number is correct.
http://www.niles-hs.k12.il.us/sites/default/files/NTFTContract2009-2012.pdf

Teacher salaries surprised me when I started looking into it. My first instinct is to say "I don't care." Really, I wouldn't care about what teachers are paid any more than I care about what Donald Trump or Alex Rodriguez make.

But I bought a home in an area which is getting clobbered with high property taxes. Illinois has something like 8000 taxing bodies, about 800 of them are School Districts. Most of what these taxing bodies are up to is unknown to the general public but they are vulnerable to pressure from narrow focus groups such as public sector unions.

Really, I was happier when I didn't care what teachers around here made.

Cook County resident says

Teacher salaries surprised me when I started looking into it. My first instinct is to say “I don’t care.” Really, I wouldn’t care about what teachers are paid any more than I care about what Donald Trump or Alex Rodriguez make.

But I bought a home in an area which is getting clobbered with high property taxes. Illinois has something like 8000 taxing bodies, about 800 of them are School Districts. Most of what these taxing bodies are up to is unknown to the general public but they are vulnerable to pressure from narrow focus groups such as public sector unions.

Really, I was happier when I didn’t care what teachers around here made.

Again, average salaries can be misleading. Starting salaries are terrible. It takes many years to work up to a somewhat comfortable salary. In some well-paying districts the average years of service for those teachers tend to be higher. Therefore the average pay in that district will be higher and not just because they are better paid, but they do make more money the longer they serve.

I'm very tired of people, especially from where I grew up, who know very little of what it takes to be a really decent teacher making judgments from the outside that teachers somehow make too much.

Home school your children. See how easy that is. And see the results when they try to apply for colleges and jobs later in life. Something tells me you wouldn't be bitching about how much teachers get paid if you knew how much work goes into being a teacher.

simchaland says

OK, I’m coming out because this is getting ridiculous.

My father taught in District 214 in the Northwest Suburbs of Chicago for over 30 years. He was a high school English and Reading teacher who taught both the remedial classes and the advanced placement classes. District 214 is the highest paying district in Illinois. And it’s one of the best performing school districts in Illinois too

I'm sure your Father was a fine teacher and it's a shame teachers weren't well paid in the past. Teachers, at least in
parts of Suburban Cook County, are well paid now, and people should be aware of the facts.

In my district, in 2010, teachers start at over $49,000. They average $90,000. I don't think that pay scale "sucks:".

And here the results of the standardized tests are mediocre.

Oh, and I just spoke with my Mom and she is very well informed because whe gets all the bulletins from Illinois Teacher Retirement. She just told me that teachers starting employment in Illinois now will only get back 50% of what they contribute toward their own pensions. Does that sound even close to being fair?