patrick.net

wthrfrk80 says

I could also talk about how Republicans spend spend spend just like Democrats do. Yes, Democrats "tax and spend". But "tax and spend" is more fiscally responsible than "borrow and spend."

Yes. Totally agree. I might vote Democratic but truth be known its not because I believe one party spends more or less than the other. They BOTH spend money like drunken sailors.

wthrfrk80 says

Then again, Canada is so cold. Maybe Australia. Hmmm...

As crazy as it sounds I actually put a little thought into moving to Australia if the election had turned out differently. I have some family there. Only problem: AU has a huge housing bubble and so too does all the other countries I'd care to move to at this point. Seeing as how some of the Republican hopefuls are apparently popular that thought has come up again. Good thing I rent.

edvard2 says

They BOTH spend money like drunken sailors.

Yes, the right answer is *politicians* spend money like drunken sailors. They are constantly trying to get re-elected.

That doesn't mean term limits are the answer -- they tend to make politicians unaccountable. It just means people need to be better engaged and better aware of facts, rather than propaganda.

wthrfrk80 says

Sort of like how in 2004 the Democrats didn't have any real ideas, they just hated Bush.

The Dems still don't have any real ideas.

They're not actively fucking things up like Team Red was last decade, but nobody wants to actually fix things around here any more; I think the 1994 elections disabused politicians from that idea, going forward -- if the electorate wants bullshit, bullshit they shall get.

edvard2 says

Only problem: AU has a huge housing bubble and so too does all the other countries I'd care to move to at this point.

you can avoid the bubble by avoiding the crowded and popular places.

Of course, that's where all the jobs are but if you're an immigrant you'd better plan on brining your own job with you.

Bellingham Bob says

They're not actively fucking things up...

That all depends on which side of the Thumb you reside.

Beside no body actively sets out to screw the pooch, that's why "Unintended Consequences" is such a beautiful coined phrase.
Bad consequences are never intended.

vague bullshit noted.

Bellingham Bob says

you can avoid the bubble by avoiding the crowded and popular places.

Of course, that's where all the jobs are but if you're an immigrant you'd better plan on brining your own job with you.

90% of the country is entirely rural and sparsely populated. Its a totally different dynamic than the US where we have plethoras of cheaper cities in various climates with decent job prospects. That's not exactly the case in AU.

bob2356 says

shrekgrinch says

As for me, the Republican Party has finally started to become something I want it to be.

That pretty much says it all.

Yep, the GOP as been letting the insane run the asylum.

For me the tipping point was W Bush being allowed to serve a second term. After that I have never voted for a Republican for any office. Before that I would vote for Republicans probably about 30% of the time.

wthrfrk80 says

At any rate, this country is in steep decline. I've actually considered moving to Canada.

Don't worry Canada will be warmer in a couple of decades. Just make sure that you move before everyone thinks Canada is a good idea.

shrekgrinch says

The Dems are as fiscally responsible as whore is virginal.

lol. Compared to Republicans, they are.

tatupu70 says

Compared to Republicans, they are.

Debt to GDP:

1977-10-01 0.34
1981-10-01 0.32 (Carter reduced 6%)
1993-07-01 0.66 (Reagan/Bush increased 106%)
2001-07-01 0.56 (Clinton reduced 18%)
2009-07-01 0.86 (Bush increased 35%)
2011-04-01 0.96 (Obama increase thus far 11%)

this "jobs" bill Liberals are parading, is nothing more than a hand out with a dog and pony show. They just want to pick their closest supporters as winners. It's sick and disgusting.

Eric Cantor said it best when he said that we can pass some parts of the bill right away that will help the economy, we don't need to pass it as entire package.

The only all or nothing nuts here are Liberal demagoguery in Democratic party.

Truthplease,
Ok, I'll give you some truth.

You are a Liberal troll, pretending to be a "Republican", to smear the Tea Party. It is obvious that you want to create a misguided conception that Republicans are against the Tea party, to gain support for the Democratic Party.

Liberal troll even with the anonymity of the internet you are too dishonest to show your real purpose and stand up for your true beliefs.

Get out of the closet and stop this charade, remove the costume and the disguise, you are a cross dressing liberal pretending to be what you are not. You are a liberal in dragg!

The truth is that through the last 3 years of the Obama administration, the country has seen how awful and uncaring the Libs are to the the needs of Americans and how worse off our economy is.

You can't claim success of Liberalism or the Democratic party principals, so instead you hide and try to trick and mislead the unweary. I guess in a way your feeble game is really the only strategy left for the Democratic party and their voice the main streem media.

Truth Please, take off the mask !

We are not the REAL owners of our country. The Real owners, The Billionaires, OWN our politicians , OWN the big media companies. They want MORE for themselves and less for everyone else. Democrats? Republicans? Who cares ?? Both parties are OWNED by these people. Do you ever wonder why tens of millions of dollars was funneled into the Obama for President campaign buy the same banks that HATE the supporters of progressive policies, UNLESS they get an exemption from prosecution and they get to walk for their financial crimes.

NOT ONE banker - insider - white collar criminal has been indicted. Even James Carville is complaining that most everything that Democrats support is being dismantled by a few big banks. YESTERDAY Carville asked the President WHY no white collar banking criminals have been prosecuted since his election. NOT ONE...yet Mr President he continues to shoot golf with Jamie Dimon of JP Morgan Chase, one of the biggest slimeballs and banksters in the WORLD.

Both elections for parties three years ago, cost in excess of 4 BILLION dollars. How many donations of one dollar make up that kind of money?

Look at Bush and Cheney. President Obama and Speaker Pelosi were promising voters that these war criminals ( Unwarranted attack on Iraq---kidnapping of people and their FAMILY members, wives and children using the word "rendition" so they would be tortured in places like LIBYA....a partner in these crimes of torture and water boarding for the Director of one of the largest NON-COMPETITIVE bid subcontractors in the IRAQ war - HALIBURTON. Thousands of Patriotic Americans dead---fighting for Haliburton?

Are they Republicans? The Republican party may have some strange supporters, but one Republican, President Eisenhower complained about the fraud the waste and the evils of the Military Industrial Complex...with experience of being the Commanding General in Europe During WWII Just because you are a Republican does not mean you support waste fraud and abuse in military OR bank spending and operations.

This sums it ALL : George Carlin on "WHO OWNS AMERICA"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI

I vote libertarian when I can. In the last election I attended the GOP primary to support Ron Paul. The primary attendees in my precinct made it clear they felt Ron Paul was a traitor and felt that I was somehow subverting their primary by showing up.

I have always been a fiscal conservative (i.e. that the best government is a small one that does very little), and want to see ALL spending cut (including the military). On the other hand, I am disgusted by the Republican moral agenda (i.e. anti-abortion, pledge of allegiance, anti-immigration, etc).

That said, I have NEVER heard of a democractic candidate I could support. The Republican party at least attracts a handful of people I can get behind (like Ron Paul, for example).

In the end, it is clear to me that for most politicians (in either party) their real objective is nothing other than power and that they are completely absent of principles. This is why BOTH parties spend like drunken sailors and refuse to tackle any issue of real substance. This is why BOTH parties will choose bail-outs than face any short-term economic pain as good as it may be for economic health. It is far easier to whine about gays in the military, abortion, or guns than to actually cut military spending programs or social security. Show me a politician will to abolish social security and I'll show you someone I will vote for.

Investor90, the thing that is shocking to me, and I did't expect is that Obama rules like Bush !
Example: Bush started the bailouts to Wall St. banks... Obama extended and quadrupled the bailouts.

Bush got us involved in Iraq and Afghanistan...Obama kept us in Iraq, expanded the forces in Afghanistan and now we are in Libya!

Bush tried to get amnesty for illegal aliens and kept the Mexican border open... So did Obama.

Except for Obamacare (which nobody wants), Obama rules just like Bush.

You are right investor90 the Dems are almost identical to the Rino Republicans. It's no wonder we have dissenters to this madness, it's called the Tea Party!

Tea anyone?

How 'bout a couple lumps?

No, in fact its more the oppsite. While I am a registered republican I have voted fairly independantly over the years. While I voted against him last year, I have voted for Jim Moran (D) VA 8 several times and Jim Webb. I can't fathom, as a renter, ever voting for a democrat again.

I spent 5 of the 8 years that W was president loathing his intellectual short comings, but I never once felt like he and his policies were personally sticking it to me, like I have with the current administration and its cronies.

The one thing I have realized, is that at least the republicans are honest about who they are, I can't say the same for the democrats and the media who maintains their facade as the party of the people.

The name “Tea Party Movement” initially inspired me, a lifelong GOP-er. However, what may have started off being a “Spirit of ‘76”-like call to dismantle liberal economic shackles quickly degenerated into uncompromising right-wing extremism. Three words that could best sway a lifelong GOP-er: BUSH TAX CUTS. Those should have been tossed into the proverbial Boston Harbor long ago.

I spent many years voting Republican and was a registered Republican until the spring of 2008. I voted for Bush in 2000, expecting a traditional, fiscally prudent government; we didn't get that and we did get a full court press to turn this country into a theocracy. So I supported and voted for Kerry in 2004 but that didn't work.

As a country we have paid an enormous price for Bush's eight year in office, first in complete fiscal irresponsibility, where the deficit went from $5.768 Trillion to $10.626 Trillion while the economy was humming and we should have had a surplus. The Bush tax cuts eliminated any surplus. Bush never vetoed any bill for six years and then vetoed one on stem cell research. And Cheney practically ran the House chamber. If tax cuts and reduced regulation will create jobs as the Republicans preach, why did we have a fraudulent-mortgage-fueled housing bubble and why did the entire economy collapse between 2006 and 4Q2008? Where are the jobs that eight Bush years of tax cuts and de-regulation should have created?

Bush also gave us extreme evangelical distortions, e.g., stem cell research stopped, family planning for foreign countries stopped, etc. Bush put uneducated evangelicals into government agencies to review and "correct" what brilliant scientists could write, e.g., evolution must always be a Theory of Evolution, intelligent design should be tought in schools.

In 2008, I liked the old McCain, the one who opposed Bush tax cuts, who criticized the evangelical leadership, and who had reasonable positions on global warming, campaign finance reform, immigration, maybe even domestic oil drilling. The old McCain that preferred to get things done; I could easily have voted for him.

But McCain changed his positions to get the support of the right wing evangelicals; he put Palin on the ticket under pressure from those same evangelicals, which eliminated any chance he might win. The Republican Party sell-out to evangelicals is the primary motivation for my Democratic vote. Our country was founded by brilliant men who established our freedom of religion, which includes freedom from religion; I will fight against a religious takeover of our government.

As John Maynard Keynes said: “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?” In 2008 the Democrats were the only serious choice; I converted to Democrat to vote for President Obama in the Primary and the General Election. I also contributed time and money to get President Obama elected. I knowingly accepted the risk the Democrats might not be good fiscal stewards. As it turned out, President Obama spent his first two years working to keep the economy from full collapse while working to get out of Iraq ( a senseless Bush war that helped Iran, did nothing for the Iraqi people and added to the deficit). We would all like to have seen more progress but most definitely we would NOT have had more progress with a new round of Republican tax cuts and more de-regulation.

If the Republican Party divorced the evangelicals and went back to a fiscally conservative program I could change back. That will be the existential challenge for the Republicans going forward.

RCharles

There's a consensus solution waiting to be found but it won't be by ideology-driven leaders nor speech-giver media stars. The quiet competence and hard-earned maturity of Hillary would make her an effective problem-solver at this time. Here's Bloomberg link on her--

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-16/clinton-popularity-prompts-some-remorse-poll.html

I had to read this about 5 times:

"Never before has the debt ceiling been tied to the budget or debt."

because if that's true, that kind of explains how we ended up with a 14.6 billion dollar debt..

Congress is trying to put a stop at the borrow and spend (Greece like) policies of the White House and Senate. Viva Republicans and Tea Party. Stop increasing taxes, Stop the borrow and spend stupidity....

For those bemoaning the social right leanings of the current Republican party members in Congress and in the Senate...and for that matter, in the White House......

You do realize that you are casting out something of a red herring, don't you? The fact is that at a national level, there is very very little that the politicians can do in any way shape or form to legislate morality.

For instance, they cannot legislate the legality of abortion. They can yak all they want, but the most they can do is to vote for Supreme Court judges who will over turn Roe vs. Wade(which isn't going to happen). I actually *hate* when abortion views are solicited from candidates in a national office because they are impotent to act on the issue at all. In another instance, there is also absolutely nothing they can do about same sex marriages. It's not like congress could just pass a law allowing same sex marriage. Even if it did get signed into law, it would be overturned by the Supreme Court(eventually). But it wouldn't even get that far. Too many legislators from moderate and conservative areas of the country would be committing political suicide by voting to pass such legislation.

Contrast this with state and local politicians who can in fact implement social legislation. For instance, the Los Angeles City Council has enacted laws in the past ten years authorizing car seizures for street racing and prostitution related activities(subsequently overturned by the California Supreme Court). Note that I say activities, not arrests. Thats because the cars could be seized simply because police had reasonable suspicion that a person was engaged in such activities.

Anyway, point is that considering the social views of a candidate running for national office is way far down on the totem pole of items I consider when contemplating who to vote for. And I'm as socially liberal as they come. Views on economic policy, foreign policy and military spending, domestic spending, etc are much more important.

sam234 says

Bush also gave us extreme evangelical distortions, e.g., stem cell research stopped, family planning for foreign countries stopped, etc. Bush put uneducated evangelicals into government agencies to review and "correct" what brilliant scientists could write, e.g., evolution must always be a Theory of Evolution, intelligent design should be tought in schools.

Stem cell research didn't end. I don't know why you would assert that it did. President Bush vetoed legislation that would have allowed the use of federal funds to support embryonic stem cell research.

As to the second assertion...the part on evolution etc, can you provide specifics as to where the decisions and policies of these "uneducated evengelicals" actually led to any sort of implemented actions? Where federal legislation or rules resulted in schools being forced to actually teach intelligent design?

The reason I ask is because every President eventually does things to appease the part of their base vote that is not entirely within the mainstream. But mostly, thats all it is. Appeasement, without any sort of real capability to make policy.

I have been an independent for the past several elections, and I always vote. I used to vote Republican. I think both parties are thieves, and frequently have the same masters. Somebody quipped recently words to the effect that our political leaders should be forced to prominently wear the names of their PAC/Union/Corporate sponsors, so that they meet the same content standards as our cereal boxes, so we can evaluate how much of their rhetoric we should swallow.
I hear a lot about how Paulson (hedge fund man, may have misspelled it) is really a good guy and how Dodd-Frank is killing our banks. I would not alter one word of Dodd-Frank until I see mass prosecutions of the folks that created the control fraud in our financial institutions that fueled the current economic disaster.
I also find rather disgusting the displays of who is the better Christian as a part of their personal political plank. Frankly, I don't give a rip if you are atheist, christian, muslim, jew, etc. I don't care who you are bedding, as long as I don't pay their salary for you and you do not do it on my time. I don't care if you are gay. I only care that our elected officials are good and competent practitioners of the political process for the good of the country as a whole. Most of the people running for office are not competent to run a lemonade stand, and most, apparently, have not had a high school-level economics course.

Not really, they are not stopping the spending since they've already approved a budget that increases the deficit. We need to see some major action, e.g., cancel and mothball an entire air craft carrier fleet or close a major fort, to come away with a sense the congress is serious.

RCharles

alice says

Stop increasing taxes

??

right. I guess that would make sense if it weren't for the downward trajectory of taxes to their lowest levels in modern times.

propitup1 says

You are a Liberal troll, pretending to be a "Republican", to smear the Tea Party.

I would say no. I have thought of myself as a responsible republican who is now drifting because of the extreme right. Besides Perot, I have voted with the republican party besides the 2004 election when I was in Iraq. I didn't vote this last election at all because McCain pandered to the extreme right with Sara Palin and I didn't think Obama had the experience. I am also not a chump who believes everything that the billionaires tell me to believe. The Tea party is a bunch of Koch (coke) fiends who listen to their billionaire messiah.

dodgerfanjohn says

For those bemoaning the social right leanings of the current Republican party members in Congress and in the Senate...and for that matter, in the White House......

Good post dodgerfanjohn. That is a good and quick analysis.

shrekgrinch says

Its clear that the Republican party has decided to focus on an increasingly concentrated, specific demographic and if the continue to insist on going down the road they're on they will lose more and more constituents.

Nope. Because an activist core never was what won elections alone.

Let me put it in another way. I would compare the current Republican party to the 80's and 90's era in Detroit when the big 3 totally ignored their compact , family, and luxury car segments. This was back when they basically built a whole lot of granny boats. Big, bloated, floaty cars that had a narrow appeal to primarily older buyers. These were the same buyers who had basically bought the same cars back in the 50's and 60's. Instead of going after younger, newer buyers, the Big 3 instead went after an aging buyer and gradually lost relevance. Luckily today they're back in the game with some appealing small cars as well as some decent family and luxury cars. It took a complete overhaul for them to do this. The same goes for the Republican party. Every single video I've seen of Republican rallys shows a crowd full of blue hairs and middle aged folks- primarily from middle America. Perhaps now they're ok because there is currently an ample supply of boomers in those crowds. But if the party fails to attract younger people then they- just like the Big 3- will lose relevance.

investor90 says

We are not the REAL owners of our country. The Real owners, The Billionaires, OWN our politicians , OWN the big media companies. They want MORE for themselves and less for everyone else. Democrats? Republicans? Who cares ?? Both parties are OWNED by these people. Do you ever wonder why tens of millions of dollars was funneled into the Obama for President campaign buy the same banks that HATE the supporters of progressive policies, UNLESS they get an exemption from prosecution and they get to walk for their financial crimes.
NOT ONE banker - insider - white collar criminal has been indicted. Even James Carville is complaining that most everything that Democrats support is being dismantled by a few big banks. YESTERDAY Carville asked the President WHY no white collar banking criminals have been prosecuted since his election. NOT ONE...yet Mr President he continues to shoot golf with Jamie Dimon of JP Morgan Chase, one of the biggest slimeballs and banksters in the WORLD.

Agree. Like I said, THE turning point for me was the bank bailouts. So much for free-market capitalism. "Too Big to Fail" is SOCIALISM for business! Privatizing the profits and socializing the losses is SOCIALISM for the rich.

That's why I can't stand Republican rhetoric against "socialism" post 2008. The bank bailouts were a huge moral hazard...if private businesses can get welfare, than why shouldn't ordinary people demand welfare too?

Niether party represents the people, only the very narrow interests that fund them. They say proudly once elected, "I don't make my decisions on the basis of any polls". As if this gives them some sort of almighty charactor. It's just plain arrogance.
The USA is not even a democracy. The American people have no say and we all know it. Do you think any of this bull would be happening if the people had any power to change it? Try to pull an Egypt here and see what happens. They'll brutally savagely crush it. Remember the Civil war. The parties pick one candidate each and you must vote for one of them. That's one more choice than a dictatorship. Sadly, that's no choice at all.

corntrollio says

Yes, the right answer is *politicians* spend money like drunken sailors. They are constantly trying to get re-elected.
That doesn't mean term limits are the answer -- they tend to make politicians unaccountable. It just means people need to be better engaged and better aware of facts, rather than propaganda.

We agree here 100%.

shrekgrinch says

have a highly informed and educated public

I would like to say yes, and it did work for Athens but this isn't Athens (of ancient times.) I just don't see that happening with the liberal bleeding heart, gadget addicted, pill popping, slap happy don't worry be happy (and don’t be mean - meaning don't give a dose of truth or reality,) grossly immature, stupid, game playing, Kool-Aid (of the Jim Jones variety) drinking masses in the USA.

Actually both parties are disgusting. Ron Paul for Prez!

The GOP managed to force the Democrats to negotiate and put $3-4 trillion worth of cuts on the table. But as David Brooks put it:
If the Republican Party were a normal party, it would take advantage of this amazing moment... This, as I say, is the mother of all no-brainers....But we can have no confidence that the Republicans will seize this opportunity. That’s because the Republican Party may no longer be a normal party.
The members of this movement do not accept the logic of compromise, no matter how sweet the terms...
The members of this movement have no sense of moral decency...
The members of this movement do not accept the legitimacy of scholars and intellectual authorities...
The members of this movement have no economic theory worthy of the name. I weep for this squandered opportunity.

That said, if you're a Californian, you'll probably be voting for at least one GOP candidate next year as the open primaries are coming courtesy of Prop 14. Perhaps a revitalized Republican party will emerge in the Golden State.

Truthplease says

Historically speaking, how has this party changed from the days of Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Eisenhower, Goldwater to now?

The Republican and Democrat parties completely switch roles in the 1960s. Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Eisenhower would be hated by the repubs now, and they would hate the repubs.

To illustrate the difference... (MDR = Modern Day Republicans)

Lincoln - Emancipation Proclamation

MDR - Omg! A black man in the White House! He must be a secret Muslim born in Keyna to sell our white children to Al Qaeda!

Lincoln - "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

MDR - Our main goal is to make sure Obama is a one term president. Any means is justified to that end, even destroying the American economy.

Lincoln - "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"

MDR - I got a boner when you said destroyed.

Lincoln - "Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. "

MDR - The only book I need is the Bible. Greatest story every told!

Lincoln - "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties. "

MDR - The Constitution is not a suicide pact.

Lincoln - "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg."

MDR - I know we'll rename the estate tax the "death tax"!

Theodore Roosevelt - "We demand that big business give the people a square deal; in return we must insist that when anyone engaged in big business honestly endeavors to do right he shall himself be given a square deal."

MDR - Regulations bad!

Theodore Roosevelt - "Optimism is a good characteristic, but if carried to an excess, it becomes foolishness. We are prone to speak of the resources of this country as inexhaustible; this is not so."

MDR - Drill baby, drill!

Theodore Roosevelt - "We of an older generation can get along with what we have, though with growing hardship; but in your full manhood and womanhood you will want what nature once so bountifully supplied and man so thoughtlessly destroyed; and because of that want you will reproach us, not for what we have used, but for what we have wasted...So any nation which in its youth lives only for the day, reaps without sowing, and consumes without husbanding, must expect the penalty of the prodigal whose labor could with difficulty find him the bare means of life."

MDR - Keep your damn government out of my Medicare!

Theodore Roosevelt - "There can be no greater issue than that of conservation in this country."

MDR - Global warming is a myth. And if it's not then it's just a natural cycle, so we can continue to pollute the Earth to maximize shareholder profits.

Theodore Roosevelt - "The conservation of natural resources is the fundamental problem. Unless we solve that problem it will avail us little to solve all others."

MDR - How's that hopie-changie thing working out?

Ike - "A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."

MDR - Corporations are people, too. They should be able to contribute vasts amounts of untraceable money to politicians.

Ike - "Don't join the book burners. Do not think you are going to conceal thoughts by concealing evidence that they ever existed."

MDR - Evolution! Phooyee!

Ike - "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

MDR - Wars are the only valid stimulus.

Ike - "I despise people who go to the gutter on either the right or the left and hurl rocks at those in the center."

MDR - You're either with us or against us you gay-married, Nazi-Islamic, commie terrorist!

Ike - "If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom."

MDR - A fence on the border, strip searches at the airports, and the cops asking for your papers. It's a good start, but not enough!

Could they get any more different?

Also, notice that no one quotes Reagan except Cheney, and his quote is "deficits don't matter."

alice says

Congress is trying to put a stop at the borrow and spend (Greece like) policies of the White House and Senate. Viva Republicans and Tea Party. Stop increasing taxes, Stop the borrow and spend stupidity....

Yes that would be nice. There certainly wasn't any borrow and spend stupidity during the Reagan or Bush II years.

shrekgrinch says

Dan8267 says

Lincoln - "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties. "

Uh....during the Civil War, Lincoln violated the Constitution big time. He ignored habeus corpus and backed a governor who took unconstitutional control of his state away from the state legislature to name just two.

OK, so then politicians were just as hypocritical back then. You'll get no argument from me on that.