patrick.net

this "jobs" bill Liberals are parading, is nothing more than a hand out with a dog and pony show. They just want to pick their closest supporters as winners. It's sick and disgusting.

Eric Cantor said it best when he said that we can pass some parts of the bill right away that will help the economy, we don't need to pass it as entire package.

The only all or nothing nuts here are Liberal demagoguery in Democratic party.

Truthplease,
Ok, I'll give you some truth.

You are a Liberal troll, pretending to be a "Republican", to smear the Tea Party. It is obvious that you want to create a misguided conception that Republicans are against the Tea party, to gain support for the Democratic Party.

Liberal troll even with the anonymity of the internet you are too dishonest to show your real purpose and stand up for your true beliefs.

Get out of the closet and stop this charade, remove the costume and the disguise, you are a cross dressing liberal pretending to be what you are not. You are a liberal in dragg!

The truth is that through the last 3 years of the Obama administration, the country has seen how awful and uncaring the Libs are to the the needs of Americans and how worse off our economy is.

You can't claim success of Liberalism or the Democratic party principals, so instead you hide and try to trick and mislead the unweary. I guess in a way your feeble game is really the only strategy left for the Democratic party and their voice the main streem media.

Truth Please, take off the mask !

We are not the REAL owners of our country. The Real owners, The Billionaires, OWN our politicians , OWN the big media companies. They want MORE for themselves and less for everyone else. Democrats? Republicans? Who cares ?? Both parties are OWNED by these people. Do you ever wonder why tens of millions of dollars was funneled into the Obama for President campaign buy the same banks that HATE the supporters of progressive policies, UNLESS they get an exemption from prosecution and they get to walk for their financial crimes.

NOT ONE banker - insider - white collar criminal has been indicted. Even James Carville is complaining that most everything that Democrats support is being dismantled by a few big banks. YESTERDAY Carville asked the President WHY no white collar banking criminals have been prosecuted since his election. NOT ONE...yet Mr President he continues to shoot golf with Jamie Dimon of JP Morgan Chase, one of the biggest slimeballs and banksters in the WORLD.

Both elections for parties three years ago, cost in excess of 4 BILLION dollars. How many donations of one dollar make up that kind of money?

Look at Bush and Cheney. President Obama and Speaker Pelosi were promising voters that these war criminals ( Unwarranted attack on Iraq---kidnapping of people and their FAMILY members, wives and children using the word "rendition" so they would be tortured in places like LIBYA....a partner in these crimes of torture and water boarding for the Director of one of the largest NON-COMPETITIVE bid subcontractors in the IRAQ war - HALIBURTON. Thousands of Patriotic Americans dead---fighting for Haliburton?

Are they Republicans? The Republican party may have some strange supporters, but one Republican, President Eisenhower complained about the fraud the waste and the evils of the Military Industrial Complex...with experience of being the Commanding General in Europe During WWII Just because you are a Republican does not mean you support waste fraud and abuse in military OR bank spending and operations.

This sums it ALL : George Carlin on "WHO OWNS AMERICA"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI

I vote libertarian when I can. In the last election I attended the GOP primary to support Ron Paul. The primary attendees in my precinct made it clear they felt Ron Paul was a traitor and felt that I was somehow subverting their primary by showing up.

I have always been a fiscal conservative (i.e. that the best government is a small one that does very little), and want to see ALL spending cut (including the military). On the other hand, I am disgusted by the Republican moral agenda (i.e. anti-abortion, pledge of allegiance, anti-immigration, etc).

That said, I have NEVER heard of a democractic candidate I could support. The Republican party at least attracts a handful of people I can get behind (like Ron Paul, for example).

In the end, it is clear to me that for most politicians (in either party) their real objective is nothing other than power and that they are completely absent of principles. This is why BOTH parties spend like drunken sailors and refuse to tackle any issue of real substance. This is why BOTH parties will choose bail-outs than face any short-term economic pain as good as it may be for economic health. It is far easier to whine about gays in the military, abortion, or guns than to actually cut military spending programs or social security. Show me a politician will to abolish social security and I'll show you someone I will vote for.

Investor90, the thing that is shocking to me, and I did't expect is that Obama rules like Bush !
Example: Bush started the bailouts to Wall St. banks... Obama extended and quadrupled the bailouts.

Bush got us involved in Iraq and Afghanistan...Obama kept us in Iraq, expanded the forces in Afghanistan and now we are in Libya!

Bush tried to get amnesty for illegal aliens and kept the Mexican border open... So did Obama.

Except for Obamacare (which nobody wants), Obama rules just like Bush.

You are right investor90 the Dems are almost identical to the Rino Republicans. It's no wonder we have dissenters to this madness, it's called the Tea Party!

Tea anyone?

How 'bout a couple lumps?

No, in fact its more the oppsite. While I am a registered republican I have voted fairly independantly over the years. While I voted against him last year, I have voted for Jim Moran (D) VA 8 several times and Jim Webb. I can't fathom, as a renter, ever voting for a democrat again.

I spent 5 of the 8 years that W was president loathing his intellectual short comings, but I never once felt like he and his policies were personally sticking it to me, like I have with the current administration and its cronies.

The one thing I have realized, is that at least the republicans are honest about who they are, I can't say the same for the democrats and the media who maintains their facade as the party of the people.

The name “Tea Party Movement” initially inspired me, a lifelong GOP-er. However, what may have started off being a “Spirit of ‘76”-like call to dismantle liberal economic shackles quickly degenerated into uncompromising right-wing extremism. Three words that could best sway a lifelong GOP-er: BUSH TAX CUTS. Those should have been tossed into the proverbial Boston Harbor long ago.

I spent many years voting Republican and was a registered Republican until the spring of 2008. I voted for Bush in 2000, expecting a traditional, fiscally prudent government; we didn't get that and we did get a full court press to turn this country into a theocracy. So I supported and voted for Kerry in 2004 but that didn't work.

As a country we have paid an enormous price for Bush's eight year in office, first in complete fiscal irresponsibility, where the deficit went from $5.768 Trillion to $10.626 Trillion while the economy was humming and we should have had a surplus. The Bush tax cuts eliminated any surplus. Bush never vetoed any bill for six years and then vetoed one on stem cell research. And Cheney practically ran the House chamber. If tax cuts and reduced regulation will create jobs as the Republicans preach, why did we have a fraudulent-mortgage-fueled housing bubble and why did the entire economy collapse between 2006 and 4Q2008? Where are the jobs that eight Bush years of tax cuts and de-regulation should have created?

Bush also gave us extreme evangelical distortions, e.g., stem cell research stopped, family planning for foreign countries stopped, etc. Bush put uneducated evangelicals into government agencies to review and "correct" what brilliant scientists could write, e.g., evolution must always be a Theory of Evolution, intelligent design should be tought in schools.

In 2008, I liked the old McCain, the one who opposed Bush tax cuts, who criticized the evangelical leadership, and who had reasonable positions on global warming, campaign finance reform, immigration, maybe even domestic oil drilling. The old McCain that preferred to get things done; I could easily have voted for him.

But McCain changed his positions to get the support of the right wing evangelicals; he put Palin on the ticket under pressure from those same evangelicals, which eliminated any chance he might win. The Republican Party sell-out to evangelicals is the primary motivation for my Democratic vote. Our country was founded by brilliant men who established our freedom of religion, which includes freedom from religion; I will fight against a religious takeover of our government.

As John Maynard Keynes said: “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?” In 2008 the Democrats were the only serious choice; I converted to Democrat to vote for President Obama in the Primary and the General Election. I also contributed time and money to get President Obama elected. I knowingly accepted the risk the Democrats might not be good fiscal stewards. As it turned out, President Obama spent his first two years working to keep the economy from full collapse while working to get out of Iraq ( a senseless Bush war that helped Iran, did nothing for the Iraqi people and added to the deficit). We would all like to have seen more progress but most definitely we would NOT have had more progress with a new round of Republican tax cuts and more de-regulation.

If the Republican Party divorced the evangelicals and went back to a fiscally conservative program I could change back. That will be the existential challenge for the Republicans going forward.

RCharles

There's a consensus solution waiting to be found but it won't be by ideology-driven leaders nor speech-giver media stars. The quiet competence and hard-earned maturity of Hillary would make her an effective problem-solver at this time. Here's Bloomberg link on her--

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-16/clinton-popularity-prompts-some-remorse-poll.html

I had to read this about 5 times:

"Never before has the debt ceiling been tied to the budget or debt."

because if that's true, that kind of explains how we ended up with a 14.6 billion dollar debt..

Congress is trying to put a stop at the borrow and spend (Greece like) policies of the White House and Senate. Viva Republicans and Tea Party. Stop increasing taxes, Stop the borrow and spend stupidity....

For those bemoaning the social right leanings of the current Republican party members in Congress and in the Senate...and for that matter, in the White House......

You do realize that you are casting out something of a red herring, don't you? The fact is that at a national level, there is very very little that the politicians can do in any way shape or form to legislate morality.

For instance, they cannot legislate the legality of abortion. They can yak all they want, but the most they can do is to vote for Supreme Court judges who will over turn Roe vs. Wade(which isn't going to happen). I actually *hate* when abortion views are solicited from candidates in a national office because they are impotent to act on the issue at all. In another instance, there is also absolutely nothing they can do about same sex marriages. It's not like congress could just pass a law allowing same sex marriage. Even if it did get signed into law, it would be overturned by the Supreme Court(eventually). But it wouldn't even get that far. Too many legislators from moderate and conservative areas of the country would be committing political suicide by voting to pass such legislation.

Contrast this with state and local politicians who can in fact implement social legislation. For instance, the Los Angeles City Council has enacted laws in the past ten years authorizing car seizures for street racing and prostitution related activities(subsequently overturned by the California Supreme Court). Note that I say activities, not arrests. Thats because the cars could be seized simply because police had reasonable suspicion that a person was engaged in such activities.

Anyway, point is that considering the social views of a candidate running for national office is way far down on the totem pole of items I consider when contemplating who to vote for. And I'm as socially liberal as they come. Views on economic policy, foreign policy and military spending, domestic spending, etc are much more important.

sam234 says

Bush also gave us extreme evangelical distortions, e.g., stem cell research stopped, family planning for foreign countries stopped, etc. Bush put uneducated evangelicals into government agencies to review and "correct" what brilliant scientists could write, e.g., evolution must always be a Theory of Evolution, intelligent design should be tought in schools.

Stem cell research didn't end. I don't know why you would assert that it did. President Bush vetoed legislation that would have allowed the use of federal funds to support embryonic stem cell research.

As to the second assertion...the part on evolution etc, can you provide specifics as to where the decisions and policies of these "uneducated evengelicals" actually led to any sort of implemented actions? Where federal legislation or rules resulted in schools being forced to actually teach intelligent design?

The reason I ask is because every President eventually does things to appease the part of their base vote that is not entirely within the mainstream. But mostly, thats all it is. Appeasement, without any sort of real capability to make policy.

I have been an independent for the past several elections, and I always vote. I used to vote Republican. I think both parties are thieves, and frequently have the same masters. Somebody quipped recently words to the effect that our political leaders should be forced to prominently wear the names of their PAC/Union/Corporate sponsors, so that they meet the same content standards as our cereal boxes, so we can evaluate how much of their rhetoric we should swallow.
I hear a lot about how Paulson (hedge fund man, may have misspelled it) is really a good guy and how Dodd-Frank is killing our banks. I would not alter one word of Dodd-Frank until I see mass prosecutions of the folks that created the control fraud in our financial institutions that fueled the current economic disaster.
I also find rather disgusting the displays of who is the better Christian as a part of their personal political plank. Frankly, I don't give a rip if you are atheist, christian, muslim, jew, etc. I don't care who you are bedding, as long as I don't pay their salary for you and you do not do it on my time. I don't care if you are gay. I only care that our elected officials are good and competent practitioners of the political process for the good of the country as a whole. Most of the people running for office are not competent to run a lemonade stand, and most, apparently, have not had a high school-level economics course.

Not really, they are not stopping the spending since they've already approved a budget that increases the deficit. We need to see some major action, e.g., cancel and mothball an entire air craft carrier fleet or close a major fort, to come away with a sense the congress is serious.

RCharles

alice says

Stop increasing taxes

??

right. I guess that would make sense if it weren't for the downward trajectory of taxes to their lowest levels in modern times.

propitup1 says

You are a Liberal troll, pretending to be a "Republican", to smear the Tea Party.

I would say no. I have thought of myself as a responsible republican who is now drifting because of the extreme right. Besides Perot, I have voted with the republican party besides the 2004 election when I was in Iraq. I didn't vote this last election at all because McCain pandered to the extreme right with Sara Palin and I didn't think Obama had the experience. I am also not a chump who believes everything that the billionaires tell me to believe. The Tea party is a bunch of Koch (coke) fiends who listen to their billionaire messiah.

dodgerfanjohn says

For those bemoaning the social right leanings of the current Republican party members in Congress and in the Senate...and for that matter, in the White House......

Good post dodgerfanjohn. That is a good and quick analysis.

shrekgrinch says

Its clear that the Republican party has decided to focus on an increasingly concentrated, specific demographic and if the continue to insist on going down the road they're on they will lose more and more constituents.

Nope. Because an activist core never was what won elections alone.

Let me put it in another way. I would compare the current Republican party to the 80's and 90's era in Detroit when the big 3 totally ignored their compact , family, and luxury car segments. This was back when they basically built a whole lot of granny boats. Big, bloated, floaty cars that had a narrow appeal to primarily older buyers. These were the same buyers who had basically bought the same cars back in the 50's and 60's. Instead of going after younger, newer buyers, the Big 3 instead went after an aging buyer and gradually lost relevance. Luckily today they're back in the game with some appealing small cars as well as some decent family and luxury cars. It took a complete overhaul for them to do this. The same goes for the Republican party. Every single video I've seen of Republican rallys shows a crowd full of blue hairs and middle aged folks- primarily from middle America. Perhaps now they're ok because there is currently an ample supply of boomers in those crowds. But if the party fails to attract younger people then they- just like the Big 3- will lose relevance.

investor90 says

We are not the REAL owners of our country. The Real owners, The Billionaires, OWN our politicians , OWN the big media companies. They want MORE for themselves and less for everyone else. Democrats? Republicans? Who cares ?? Both parties are OWNED by these people. Do you ever wonder why tens of millions of dollars was funneled into the Obama for President campaign buy the same banks that HATE the supporters of progressive policies, UNLESS they get an exemption from prosecution and they get to walk for their financial crimes.
NOT ONE banker - insider - white collar criminal has been indicted. Even James Carville is complaining that most everything that Democrats support is being dismantled by a few big banks. YESTERDAY Carville asked the President WHY no white collar banking criminals have been prosecuted since his election. NOT ONE...yet Mr President he continues to shoot golf with Jamie Dimon of JP Morgan Chase, one of the biggest slimeballs and banksters in the WORLD.

Agree. Like I said, THE turning point for me was the bank bailouts. So much for free-market capitalism. "Too Big to Fail" is SOCIALISM for business! Privatizing the profits and socializing the losses is SOCIALISM for the rich.

That's why I can't stand Republican rhetoric against "socialism" post 2008. The bank bailouts were a huge moral hazard...if private businesses can get welfare, than why shouldn't ordinary people demand welfare too?

Niether party represents the people, only the very narrow interests that fund them. They say proudly once elected, "I don't make my decisions on the basis of any polls". As if this gives them some sort of almighty charactor. It's just plain arrogance.
The USA is not even a democracy. The American people have no say and we all know it. Do you think any of this bull would be happening if the people had any power to change it? Try to pull an Egypt here and see what happens. They'll brutally savagely crush it. Remember the Civil war. The parties pick one candidate each and you must vote for one of them. That's one more choice than a dictatorship. Sadly, that's no choice at all.

corntrollio says

Yes, the right answer is *politicians* spend money like drunken sailors. They are constantly trying to get re-elected.
That doesn't mean term limits are the answer -- they tend to make politicians unaccountable. It just means people need to be better engaged and better aware of facts, rather than propaganda.

We agree here 100%.

shrekgrinch says

have a highly informed and educated public

I would like to say yes, and it did work for Athens but this isn't Athens (of ancient times.) I just don't see that happening with the liberal bleeding heart, gadget addicted, pill popping, slap happy don't worry be happy (and don’t be mean - meaning don't give a dose of truth or reality,) grossly immature, stupid, game playing, Kool-Aid (of the Jim Jones variety) drinking masses in the USA.

Actually both parties are disgusting. Ron Paul for Prez!

The GOP managed to force the Democrats to negotiate and put $3-4 trillion worth of cuts on the table. But as David Brooks put it:
If the Republican Party were a normal party, it would take advantage of this amazing moment... This, as I say, is the mother of all no-brainers....But we can have no confidence that the Republicans will seize this opportunity. That’s because the Republican Party may no longer be a normal party.
The members of this movement do not accept the logic of compromise, no matter how sweet the terms...
The members of this movement have no sense of moral decency...
The members of this movement do not accept the legitimacy of scholars and intellectual authorities...
The members of this movement have no economic theory worthy of the name. I weep for this squandered opportunity.

That said, if you're a Californian, you'll probably be voting for at least one GOP candidate next year as the open primaries are coming courtesy of Prop 14. Perhaps a revitalized Republican party will emerge in the Golden State.

Truthplease says

Historically speaking, how has this party changed from the days of Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Eisenhower, Goldwater to now?

The Republican and Democrat parties completely switch roles in the 1960s. Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Eisenhower would be hated by the repubs now, and they would hate the repubs.

To illustrate the difference... (MDR = Modern Day Republicans)

Lincoln - Emancipation Proclamation

MDR - Omg! A black man in the White House! He must be a secret Muslim born in Keyna to sell our white children to Al Qaeda!

Lincoln - "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

MDR - Our main goal is to make sure Obama is a one term president. Any means is justified to that end, even destroying the American economy.

Lincoln - "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"

MDR - I got a boner when you said destroyed.

Lincoln - "Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. "

MDR - The only book I need is the Bible. Greatest story every told!

Lincoln - "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties. "

MDR - The Constitution is not a suicide pact.

Lincoln - "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg."

MDR - I know we'll rename the estate tax the "death tax"!

Theodore Roosevelt - "We demand that big business give the people a square deal; in return we must insist that when anyone engaged in big business honestly endeavors to do right he shall himself be given a square deal."

MDR - Regulations bad!

Theodore Roosevelt - "Optimism is a good characteristic, but if carried to an excess, it becomes foolishness. We are prone to speak of the resources of this country as inexhaustible; this is not so."

MDR - Drill baby, drill!

Theodore Roosevelt - "We of an older generation can get along with what we have, though with growing hardship; but in your full manhood and womanhood you will want what nature once so bountifully supplied and man so thoughtlessly destroyed; and because of that want you will reproach us, not for what we have used, but for what we have wasted...So any nation which in its youth lives only for the day, reaps without sowing, and consumes without husbanding, must expect the penalty of the prodigal whose labor could with difficulty find him the bare means of life."

MDR - Keep your damn government out of my Medicare!

Theodore Roosevelt - "There can be no greater issue than that of conservation in this country."

MDR - Global warming is a myth. And if it's not then it's just a natural cycle, so we can continue to pollute the Earth to maximize shareholder profits.

Theodore Roosevelt - "The conservation of natural resources is the fundamental problem. Unless we solve that problem it will avail us little to solve all others."

MDR - How's that hopie-changie thing working out?

Ike - "A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."

MDR - Corporations are people, too. They should be able to contribute vasts amounts of untraceable money to politicians.

Ike - "Don't join the book burners. Do not think you are going to conceal thoughts by concealing evidence that they ever existed."

MDR - Evolution! Phooyee!

Ike - "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

MDR - Wars are the only valid stimulus.

Ike - "I despise people who go to the gutter on either the right or the left and hurl rocks at those in the center."

MDR - You're either with us or against us you gay-married, Nazi-Islamic, commie terrorist!

Ike - "If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom."

MDR - A fence on the border, strip searches at the airports, and the cops asking for your papers. It's a good start, but not enough!

Could they get any more different?

Also, notice that no one quotes Reagan except Cheney, and his quote is "deficits don't matter."

alice says

Congress is trying to put a stop at the borrow and spend (Greece like) policies of the White House and Senate. Viva Republicans and Tea Party. Stop increasing taxes, Stop the borrow and spend stupidity....

Yes that would be nice. There certainly wasn't any borrow and spend stupidity during the Reagan or Bush II years.

shrekgrinch says

Dan8267 says

Lincoln - "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties. "

Uh....during the Civil War, Lincoln violated the Constitution big time. He ignored habeus corpus and backed a governor who took unconstitutional control of his state away from the state legislature to name just two.

OK, so then politicians were just as hypocritical back then. You'll get no argument from me on that.

Bellingham Bob says

The Dems still don't have any real ideas.

Are you sure about that one though? The problem I see with the democrats is they keep trying to push for huge bills by lumping everything into one.

On a lower level (state and local) things can be done. When Dean was governor he lowered taxes and cut spending in VT. Someone was even quoted saying they thought Reagan was in office!

VT has a interesting program called choices for care for nursing homes. Basically instead of a home the state gives the options for a friend or relative to take care of someone and it pays them $10/hr. Now that isn't much money but it keeps people where they want to be (and nursing homes aren't staffed with all nurses..that's just a crock commercial) The state saves money because it is cheaper than a nursing home, those being cared trust those taking care of them and it creates competition potentially lowering the cost of actual nursing homes.

Back in NYC in the early 90's mayor Dinkins set up these quasi governmental groups that would go after minor crimes (littering, graffiti etc) It freed police up to work on more major crimes. As a result the place became more clean and new businesses moved in (Giuliani didn't do this no matter what someone on the right might say)

mdovell says

Are you sure about that one though? The problem I see with the democrats is they keep trying to push for huge bills by lumping everything into one.

There's a reason for that. Obama knows that any legislation that passes must be a compromise. He threw several bones to the Republicans in the House (even if it's not clear they'll take them). Trying to vote 1 by 1 on these things wouldn't fly -- you need to get a lot of people on board. That's generally how good legislation passes -- neither side gets exactly what they want. Ideological legislation is usually not very good.

I delisted myself from the Republican party by filling out a new voter registration card a day or two after Ann Coulter appeared on Fox News saying "Radiation is good for you". I still support many of their principles but my vote must be earned.

I'm just going to tell it like it is and I know most of you aren't use to hearing this...... White America, you made a bet and you LOST big time. The average white American has been voting Republican their entire life due to fear, racism, classism and stupidity. (Only 43% voted for Liberal Obama). In return, the majority of you have been kicked out of the middle class or barely hanging on, have had your job outsourced or wages frozen, and have been despised by the very top 1% that you live to protect all in the hope that you would eventually become that top 1%.

New Flash: The rich can't stand 99% of you as evidence by their policies towards the majority of you. Your utter ignorance, arrogance and paranoia has you scratching your head and wondering why are you aren't making it today. Capitalism, the very religion that you worship hates you. Labor is the enemy of profits. But the rich knows just how ignorant and racist most whites are and how they will vote against their own best interest if they think it will keep people WITH color (God's original people) "in their place".

I wish I could say that I feel sorry for republican whites who have gotten their anus's kicked in this economy...... but I don't. You deserve every inch of heart ache that you are feeling due to your supreme illogical ignorance and hatred for people WITH Color. When Ron Paul's own former campaign worker dies due to lack of health care, an ideology that many of you champion all in the name of "Freedom" (so simple minded), it's hard to feel sorry for that guy. I pity you in that you are the victim of your own ignorance and hatred, but I don't feel sorry for you. As Ed Shultz tries to rally support for all of the mostly white fire fighters and public workers on his show, an intelligent mind can't help to think how many of those people have been voting for the party of "small government" their entire lives and now find themselves out of work due to the ideology of small government or better "please fire me".

Learn a lesson or two in humility and self checking from African Americans or Africans in America (God's Original people). It's high time that white America have "RACE" specific talk shows (radio & TV) much in the same way that African Americans that deal specifically with the dysfunction in the black community and how it is destroying their community. Why can people with color hold their own accountable but whites simply cannot? Poor and barely middle class white Americans who vote republicans in office are hurting America in ways that some Arab with a bomb could never hurt America. White liberals you must find the courage (the same way that African Americans do) to speak SPECIFICALLY to the white community ie: your neighbor, your family, and in many cases yourself, that is destroying our nation. Every illogical and dysfunctional group of people (dead beat dads, drug abusers, criminals) are all publicly held accountable EXPECT poor and middle class whites who vote against their own interest. It's time that this crap stops. America, that is your main problem. Until you are ready to deal with it....... we will all suffer. The only saving grace is that illogical racist whites will no longer be the majority in this country (the real reason for the attack on social security and all social safety nets).

But in the mean time, the "GOP voting" public worker who is now out of work, the private sector worker who now finds himself outsourced and loosing their home, or the sick GOP voter who is without healthcare......... it's time that you are held accountable and liberal white America THIS IS YOUR JOB. Humble yourself white America and just do it. If African Americans and even Latinos can do it, you can do it too.

I see the time has come after many years to leave Patrick.net. I am finding that too many online forum threads now start off on a tangible subject then spin off into complete utter lunacy. I have no time for it. I wish you all well in your life. Thank you for having me here.

The Republican party has more in common with the Taliban in Afghanistan than a political party in a modern democracy.

Bellingham Bob says

tatupu70 says

Compared to Republicans, they are.

Debt to GDP:

1977-10-01 0.34

1981-10-01 0.32 (Carter reduced 6%)

1993-07-01 0.66 (Reagan/Bush increased 106%)

2001-07-01 0.56 (Clinton reduced 18%)

2009-07-01 0.86 (Bush increased 35%)

2011-04-01 0.96 (Obama increase thus far 11%)

“Nessuna soluzione . . . nessun problema!„

Interesting data here. How many Americans are aware of this?

The debt to GDP can be reduced. I think Bellingham Bob had produced a very easy way to do this that I seen in a previous post.

I am probably jumping off the Republican party. We are a country that has modernized with a shrinking labor force. Hopefully, there is some change in the future. I really hate saying this, but we will eventually head towards the Canadian/European model.

Here is another puzzling question. The republican party is injected and really cares about the christian/religous part of America. They don't really follow the teachings of Jesus in the policies however. How can you be a man or woman who follows those teachings but is willing to cut programs that hurt the poor?

The choices offered by the GOP field of presidential candidates all are better than Obama.

How extreme any of them seem is a function of one's own viewpoint and perspective. If one considers the number of people who call themselves 'Christian' in the nation today, or the historical heritage of our nation, one can hardly call these candidates or their views extreme, in fact, one could much more easily call the policies contrary to their views extreme and radical. One example would be the welfare state (whether the welfare be for individuals or corporations), which has taken root in the minds of too many as an acceptable principle. That idea is intolerable to the founding principles.

I have been a 'Republican' since I made the mistake, at a much younger age, of voting for Jimmy Carter. Years back I realized that the Republican Party was using the funds I gave it to support candidates whose positions, on certain issues, were in opposition to my own. This is similar to what forced unionism and the US tax system does, however, in this case, I had an alternative. I no longer give to parties or PACs that do not stand steadfast and true to my personal positions. This is the answer to your question about giving to the Republican Party. I feel strongly that the Republican Party powers that be are not principled and that their first concern is the perpetuation of their power and the party that affords them this power. This is why the party supports RINOs (Mitt Romney and Olympia Snowe, et. al.) and politicians rather than principled candidates (statesmen).

I do not see the government as my 'savior'. Instead I see it as a tool being used by the unprincipled to achieve their own ends. It could and should be used to protect our freedoms. This is a point I differ wherein I differ from Ron Paul. An example would be Iran and the tyranny and ideology and terrorism it promotes. I believe it is my duty to report a criminal and help to end the crimes. The government of Iran is an international criminal promoting terrorism and the genocide of Jews and anyone not of their ideological bent (Shite Islam). If I had been of voting age in the 1930's I would have opposed isolationism and advocated stopping Hitler and the Nazis and Facists of Italy and Japan while they were still small and relatively easy to deal with. Ron Paul would have been an advocate of the isolationist policies that helped these butchers of mankind grow. Thus I do not support this aspect of Paul's platform. Although I do stridently advocate a return to the principles of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. The government has been, in times past, and is sometimes at present used to protect and preserve our freedoms. However, the recent trend has been to usurp freedoms from the people and the states.

Many Americans do not see the GOP candidates as extreme. The MSM (Main Stream Media) likes to paint them as extreme, but the positions represented by many of the candidates have been around for some time.

Many Americans do not feel that the faith of these candidates is inappropriate. Many great statesmen of the past in this country and other countries acted upon their beliefs in public life. William Wilberforce for example was instrumental in the cessation of slavery in England... although the abolition was a huge loss in economic terms and I am sure he and others of his ilk were labeled extremists. The abolitionists were motivated by the principle that God created all men equal and that people of non-white skin were created in the image of God just like those with light skin. They believed slavery was wrong regardless of the race of the person. I hold to these same principles.

My point is this... the bigotry and prejudice engendered against those who have faith by those who don't is unwarranted and unjustified. It is wrong. The person of Christian faith who has a mature understanding of that faith is told to "love his neighbor as himself"... just consider what this means. Never cheat or deceive or endanger your neighbor... who is his neighbor? Everyman. What about enemies? The Christian is told to love his enemies. Does that mean he is not to defend against the evil a person might do.... No it means that a Christian should stand against evil carry out justice without malice or hatred of the individual.

The truth is... the problems we have encountered are caused by acting out on ideas contrary to the teachings of Christianity. That means believing other things. The Real Estate debacle was caused by greed and avaricious deceit. The propping up of insolvent banks and entities is deceit and robbery because it isn't right to take from taxpayers to sustain the skulduggery of liars and thieves.

There are a few of the Presidential candidates I like less than others... I prefer the No Compromise ilk as I had to take the same position in my financial life to avoid getting sucked into the lie that real estate always goes up and you better get in now or you'll never be able to get in. I remember well the clarion siren call of the crowd and being labeled a nut because I refused to enter into debt I could not repay. I refused the get rich and retire lie. Anyway, I like candidates who say NO to raising the debt ceiling. I like candidates who say YES to a Balanced Budget and will not accept compromise. I like candidates who say get off welfare and get a job... I like candidates who say taxation should be fair (the Fair Tax or a Flat Tax). I like candidates who want to end earmarks and privileges for special interests and groups. I like candidates who think govt should be downsized and capped in spending and number of employees. I like candidates who think govt should be limited. I like candidates who want to see jobs moved back to America and sensible realistic environmental regulations. I like candidates who think illegals shouldn't be rewarded for cutting in front of those trying to enter legally. I like candidates who want to meter immigration so that all current Americans and those immigrating to become Americans can enjoy a good job and support themselves economically. I advocate immigration of those being oppressed.

I like the idea of working for the rest of my days and finding work to do that helps produce so that others can enjoy the fruit of my labor and I can enjoy the fruit of their labor through the exchange of our 'fruit'. I find a great sense of satisfaction in knowing that when I do my job I help other people.

My favorite candidate right now is Michele Bachmann... why? No compromise on the debt ceiling. No compromise on a Balanced Budget Amendment. Jobs are the priority. She doesn't look at government as the solution. As for the tired mantra of "experience", I look at all that the "experience" of the politicians have in Washington has wrought and I think it is time for a candidate who has experience of greater value... how about someone who pays their taxes and has a business and raised 5 kids and contributed to the lives of 23 foster children. All the economic 'experts' can't seem to figure out that debt is BAD not good.

I am so tired of compromise with economic and social suicide.

As for alienating a racial group the whole concept of categorizing people by race is racist. People are your neighbors from a Christian perspective. They are to be helped as you would want to be helped. I myself do NOT want handouts. I want to earn whatever I receive. The solution is not handouts, but giving those unemployed and those receiving handouts jobs to do.

The candidates running, except for a few, are not sanctioned or even liked by the Republican Party power brokers. They don't want a Bachmann in there. That is why they got Perry to run and that is why he picked the day of the straw poll. They want compromise... they want to continue the growth of government and the extension of its power as that extends their power.

I would like to see the elimination of the GSEs and the Marking to Market of the assets of the banks. If they fail, the banks who did not make those mistakes will use their assets to buy up the distressed assets of the failed banks at true market value.

The problem as I see it is we the people... I know we don't like to hear that we are the problem and I don't mean all of the people are the problem... but enough of the people are the problem that the people voted in Obama and the people rejected the principles of the founding fathers. This republic cannot exist, and our freedoms and prosperity cannot be maintained, by any counterfeit principles. Unless we return to the principles and beliefs of the founders we will cease to exist as the America of the past. We too will go the way of all nations that reject those principles.

I could go on and on but the gist of it is we need to return to our foundations and to the beliefs and principles and faith of our fathers. We need to return it this faith as individuals. If we don't they told us what would happen... read Washington and Lincoln and Franklin and the others and read history... we are not a special case.

Consider the case... we cannot do wrong without consequence.

Rowland says

The person of Christian faith who has a mature understanding of that faith is told to "love his neighbor as himself"... just consider what this means. Never cheat or deceive or endanger your neighbor... who is his neighbor? Everyman. What about enemies? The Christian is told to love his enemies. Does that mean he is not to defend against the evil a person might do.... No it means that a Christian should stand against evil carry out justice without malice or hatred of the individual.