patrick.net

The cost of health care is what's screwing us all. Single-payer health care and the cost of benefits and pensions goes WAY down.

1sfrenter says

The cost of health care is what's screwing us all. Single-payer health care and the cost of benefits and pensions goes WAY down.

This is true. Sorry, won't happen.

It's simply amazing how people fall for the old divide and conquer bait put out by the powers that be. Blame the teachers, cops, firefighters or anyone working in what used to be considered solid middle class jobs for all our economic woes. These people and their bloated wages/benefits are draining our coffers. Such bullshit! This bullshit, which far too many people seem to enjoy devouring, comes from the same bastards who have stolen, yes stolen, trillions and laugh as they play the masses against one another. George Carlin summed it up perfectly, "there are a lot of f****n stupid people in this country."

marcus says

Do they know that about half of the people that go in to teaching quit in the first 5 years?

I admire lower-school teachers for one reason: dealing with all the shitty parents out there. It would grate on my nerves, I couldn't do it!

Even with one of my former University professors I got to hear some real horror stories. He ran the "weedout" class for a top Computer Science program. Endless pressure from students, parents, and even his own management to adjust grades when some connected student complained. Eventually he got fed up with it during one particularly bad example where the Dean over-rode him and changed a student's grades, and walked. I think he lasted about 7 years.

Plus as few realize and has been alluded to in this thread, there is no BONUS, there is no stock-sharing during boom times. During economic boom times all you hear is what an IDIOT you are for staying in a low-pay environment for....what? For a benefits illusion that probably will end up being slashed before you retire by Teahadists anyhow?

EconPete says

So if someone makes $100,000 a year income, under normal circumstances, it is safe to say they bring in about $850,000 to $1,000,000 revenue a year.

WTF this is a government service, not a for profit enterprise. The idea is to increase the common good and improve our standard of living over the long term, not to make a quick buck.

EconPete says

Now let’s look at the Public school teacher. In WI, the cost to educate a child per year in the public sector is around $12,000 a year! This is not viable in the private sector because nobody would be able to afford it, but let’s give teachers the benefit of the doubt.

Dude, are you on drugs? Private schools cost much more than this, and they don't have to deal with the mental challenged of society that suck a vast amount of resources from the public education budget. I suggest you enroll in a 12 step program. It really will help you over the long run. The government still offers such programs to help people, such as yourself.

Having had some experience working with a public school district as a contractor I tend to agree with Marcus that EconPete's analysis is at best oversimplified. I know of no school teacher that has "the summer off". The ones I have spoken to have stories of spending their summers in mandatory training classes. I often see teachers in Target buying supplies for their classes. My uncle was a public teacher in MI - is he living the high life - Nope! He lives a fairly standard middle class existence and to the best of my knowledge he has no fat pension stash rolling in.

Keep in mind most US employees get at least 2/3 of the year off! Yes its true!, knock off weekends, holidays and 10 days vacation and the year magically gets reduced to only 65% of the year actually spend at the office. Heck if one uses the 8 hr workday model that drops to only 22% of the year spent at the office

You @#$^@#% lazy slobs! Get back to work!

Seriously though I do tend to agree that it is well beyond time to move away from the summers-off model. Sorry kids but if Mom and Dad have to work so do you.

There is also the dark underbelly of teaching. Teachers do have to deal with molested and bullied kids, belligerent parents, unsupportive administrators, and a host of other nasty surprises.

I will at this point echo the challenge posed by Marcus and others - if you can't beat em' why not join 'em.

OK I've said my peace, now I'm off to my hedge fund management course...

You know EconPete if you want to get outraged at a complete waste of taxpayer money why not be outraged at the criminalization of marijuana? That policy alone wastes more money than any failing of education!

Banning the sale of foie gras in California is yet another huge waste of taxpayer money.

They say we are in a recession, yet they make laws to discourage consumption!

Bill Frank says

It's simply amazing how people fall for the old divide and conquer bait put out by the powers that be. Blame the teachers, cops, firefighters or anyone working in what used to be considered solid middle class jobs for all our economic woes. These people and their bloated wages/benefits are draining our coffers. Such bullshit! This bullshit, which far too many people seem to enjoy devouring, comes from the same bastards who have stolen, yes stolen, trillions and laugh as they play the masses against one another. George Carlin summed it up perfectly, "there are a lot of f****n stupid people in this country."

I couldn't have said it better.

One of my best friends retired at the age of 54 (30 years) from teaching in Chicago. He lives on a golf course, drives a new Lexus every year, and has a luxury Bus where he vacations to CA in the winters. His pension. He receives a check for $9,000 every month. Why is this right? It's not, but hey, he was in a Chicago union and they are the best at screwing the taxpayers.

Pat McGroin Im Irish says

One of my best friends retired at the age of 54 (30 years) from teaching in Chicago. He lives on a golf course, drives a new Lexus every year, and has a luxury Bus where he vacations to CA in the winters. His pension. He receives a check for $9,000 every month. Why is this right? It's not, but hey, he was in a Chicago union and they are the best at screwing the taxpayers.

What district did he teach in?

I can't imagine a worse job than a public school teacher. It's little more than babysitting for the children of deadbeats. Teachers aren't paid anywhere near enough considering the bullsh*t they have to deal with on a daily basis.

That said, I think the whole concept of mandatory public schooling is a joke. Public education should be "available" but NOT mandatory. At least not mandatory beyond elementary school (learning how to read and do basic math).

There are just too many low-lifes out there clogging up the public school system. They make life miserable for the few who actually want to learn.

And NO, I'm NOT assuming "deadbeats" only means poor black people in cities. I went to a rural high school with mostly white-trash future meth-heads.

Sure, there are a few "good" school districts out there, mainly in well-to-do suburbs, where the percentage of low-lifes is realatively small. But poorer folks who want their children to do well often can't afford to live in those areas.

wthrfrk80 says

That said, I think the whole concept of mandatory public schooling is a joke.

Compulsory education exists for a reason. Some parents would be perfectly happy to keep them at home and teach them absolutely nothing and raise savages instead of citizens. Home schoolers exist I need not remind you, but they are required to adhere to teaching the 3 R's.

I only read half the comments but I felt compelled to say how much I love that this guy econpete just made himself look like a fool.

marcus- gota love when someone tells you how much you are earning and how easy your job is, because they have a friend who told them so!

Econ-
Why don't you do something productive with your life like say, hold your breath forever.

I didn't see where you took into account the work teachers bring home.

Vicente says

Some parents would be perfectly happy to keep them at home and teach them absolutely nothing and raise savages instead of citizens.

I went to public school with mainly savages. The public schooling didn't seem to have much of an effect.

The Amish don't go to public schools and don't educate beyond 8th grade. How many of the Amish are savages?

I also find it very tough to believe that someone would tell someone else how much they are collecting from a pension, especially in this political climate, and especially if it was something ludicrous by most standards, even if it is a friend. I suspect most of these "my friend retired at 54 and is collecting 9 grand a month from a public pension!" stories are just that....stories, fabricated to increase the hatred of the villainous of the public sector.

Diane Ravitch's article should not be coupled with a teabag's opinion piece.

Ravitch has seen both sides and her experience is fortified with knowledge.
She knows what she is talking about ......

I certainly do blame teachers unions for a lot of problems with our education today. The low standards, someone did lobby for that. Costs, pension and healthcare retirement obligations that are resembling some sort of out of this world Bernie Madoff fantasy.

I remember when we used to throw money at education, and none of that ever translated into better grades or even trickled down to the students. Just got absorbed by pension obligations, and by bureaucratic administration. And as a parent when I don't think the product that I'm getting is worth paying for... well my attitude is not in favor of our current education system.

I completely disagree with the "seniority system" that they have, which is just meant to completely screw younger members in order to keep the old union elite fat and happy. That's how historically unions operated, like a ponzi scheme... they take from younger members and give it to the elite at the top. Complete immoral subjugation and indoctrination.

Pension problem is much bigger in CA, many union members don't consider it as part of their pay, they only see it as entitlement. Maybe that kind of ignorant attitude will one day go away, CA is bankrupt. Obama bailouts only lasted for 2 years.

Pat McGroin Im Irish says

One of my best friends retired at the age of 54 (30 years) from teaching in Chicago. He lives on a golf course, drives a new Lexus every year, and has a luxury Bus where he vacations to CA in the winters. His pension. He receives a check for $9,000 every month. Why is this right? It's not, but hey, he was in a Chicago union and they are the best at screwing the taxpayers.

I don't doubt this as I have a cousin who retired from a suburban Chicago district with a pension of over a 100K a year. On the other hand I have a good friend who just retired from a rural district in Il who after teaching for over thirty years with a masters degree was making in the mid forties and had taken cuts in benefits. In Il. where property taxes fund much of the public education and the State's finances are in a shamble, there is a huge disparity from district to district. Are there teachers that make more then they are worth, for sure and there are plenty that are underpaid. It is a profession where a teacher can have such a huge impact on a child's life (both for good and ill) that we just need to pay decent wages and benefits to retain good people and somehow weed out the bad, understanding that for the most part teachers want to do good work in educating our children and therefore need to get paid a decent wage.

It's obvious to see why econ pete feels the way that he does. Teachers think they're so smart, standing in front of the room like they do, judging him... judging his children, teaching stupid things like math and languages that they'll never need to know when they grow up. Trying to educate the masses is crazy, considering they might not be able to get jobs (the way things are going in our economy) and should only be taught certain catch phrases like, "would you like fries with that?"

Most of my property taxes go to pay for the school system out here. I live in an area where five kids is a small family, people are out of work and many of them can barely feed their children, yet the pop out more of them and I am paying to educate them. I feel like everyone should pay for kids' education, but if you have a shitload of them you should have to pay more to educate them or have to volunteer so many hours at the school to help out. But not to replace teachers, more like to help with the shit stuff so that teachers can... well, teach.

But econpete makes a point that private schools (or home schooling) are the way to go - right? then you don't have to interact with the 99%, the children learn segregation and how to treat other people with disdain.

Teachers never have to worry about layoffs:
http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/19004432/dekalb-county-schools-face-even-deeper-cuts-teacher-layoffs
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-05-05/california-teacher-layoffs/54767514/1
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/27/cps-set-to-lay-off-1000-t_n_885298.html

Teachers are highly paid (2011):
http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/

Teachers make so much money they buy their own supplies, drive nice cars, live in huge houses (which we all know is a sign of wealth), drink starbucks coffee for every meal... They have summers off (except, of course, for the teachers that I know, who work summer jobs to make ends meet), never work overtime, and never have to worry about some parent or child making a huge deal about something stupid.

Teachers are held to a higher moral standard, as if by being a teacher they don't drink, attend bachelor or bachelorette parties, say & do stupid human things, etc. They have complaints filed against them for looking at students wrong, taking away inappropriate materials, flunking the priveledged students, etc. They are treated like crap much of the time, have to follow guidelines set up by non-educators...

I can see why Marcus chose to be a teacher. He's probably sitting on a pile of money right now, glad to be in the public sector rather than making 30% more while working 30% less. As a social worker, I spend 1-3 hours nightly doing paperwork for which I'm not reimbursed. My teacher friends do the same - in fact, sometimes we get together and do our paperwork beside each other. It's a grown up form of parallel play...

Breaking story:

CEO's high pay is even less justified...for companies losing money or getting public bailouts.

FortWayne says

I certainly do blame teachers unions for a lot of problems with our education today. The low standards, someone did lobby for that. Costs, pension and healthcare retirement obligations that are resembling some sort of out of this world Bernie Madoff fantasy.

Standards are low because they have to be low. There are too many children of deadbeats in our public schools. It's not because of the evil teachers' unions.

FortWayne says

I completely disagree with the "seniority system" that they have, which is just meant to completely screw younger members in order to keep the old union elite fat and happy. That's how historically unions operated, like a ponzi scheme... they take from younger members and give it to the elite at the top.

They seniority system might not be a good thing, but it's not a "Ponzi scheme." It's not a "bubble" either.

Are we starting to call everything a "Ponzi scheme" or a "bubble" after the housing fiasco?

wthrfrk80 says

Standards are low because they have to be low. There are too many children of deadbeats in our public schools. It's not because of the evil teachers' unions.

This is precisely the attitude that kills our education system. Because No, standards shouldn't be low. Deadbeats are not entitled to a diploma upon birth. Diplomas are reserved for those who can demonstrate certain ability.

This is why so many teachers end up taking anti depressants when they see how this system screws children, and how badly this society gets fucked by it.

We shouldn't drag everyone down into low standards stupid equality to match mexican field workers just to make our graduation numbers look good. Best thing our teachers can do for kids who don't perform, is to fail them. Nothing gets a child and a parent involved into education like being told they are losers.

But in this education system low standards are there, so they can secure state and federal funding, which is tied to graduation rates, and pretend everything is fine, when it is not!

FortWayne says

I remember, last year on NPR. (And some NPR shows are just nuts when it comes to liberalism.)

I find it hard to sit through the Lip smacking and throat cracking.
They have a condescending, smug dictation that maximizes this effect, and the audio engineer compresses and EQ's the frequencies to further embellish it. It appears there's a thin line between being eloquent and just grossing people out.

These's Bastards can't describe sitting on a Lake doing a redneck task like Bass fishing with out trying to sound smarter than everyone else.

You're fishing Lake Allawalla get over your self!

wthrfrk80 says

They seniority system might not be a good thing, but it's not a "Ponzi scheme." It's not a "bubble" either.

Are we starting to call everything a "Ponzi scheme" or a "bubble" after the housing fiasco?

What would you call a system that knowingly promises returns that it knows it will never make, all while taking more from new members in order to pay for older existing members.

See the resemblance?

FortWayne says

They were talking about how everyone should get a diploma regardless of their ability to read and write, because they are entitled to a diploma.

I have a hard time believing NPR would advocate such a thing. If they did, shame on them.

What do lower standards and messages about "equality, entitlements and diversity" have to do with securing federal funding? Schools are generally funded at the state and local level are they not?

FortWayne says

See the resemblance?

No.

Now the social security system, on the other hand...

wthrfrk80 says

I have a hard time believing NPR would advocate such a thing. If they did, shame on them.

Dude you should tune in some time.
You folks like to chalk people for being pissed off, as to listening to too much Rush or Fox news. You want to get outraged, spend an hour in stop and go rush hour traffic listening to all things considered and fresh air.

Though truth be told I only listen to hear that Scottish contributor from the BBC, with the thick nasal Sottish accent. Secretly I keep hoping he'll say...
"If it's not Scottish it's CRAP!"

wthrfrk80 says

What do lower standards and messages about "equality, entitlements and diversity" have to do with securing federal funding? Schools are generally funded at the state and local level are they not?

A lot of funding is tied to graduation rates. So bureaucrats lower the standards so they can keep the union bosses happy, graduate few more morons, and everyone pretends the system is fine.

FortWayne says

Because No, standards shouldn't be low. Deadbeats are not entitled to a diploma upon birth. Diplomas are reserved for those who can demonstrate certain ability.

I completely agree. That's why I'm against compulsory public education beyond 8th grade. Deadbeats are deadbeats. Send them to the military or directly to prison (no, I'm not being sarcastic on this one).

FortWayne says

This is why so many teachers end up taking anti depressants when they see how this system screws children, and how badly this society gets fucked by it.

So why are you attacking teachers for making too much money?

FortWayne says

A lot of funding is tied to graduation rates.

Is that true? If so, that's insane. Agreed.

Pat McGroin Im Irish says

One of my best friends retired at the age of 54 (30 years) from teaching in Chicago. He lives on a golf course, drives a new Lexus every year, and has a luxury Bus where he vacations to CA in the winters. His pension. He receives a check for $9,000 every month. Why is this right? It's not, but hey, he was in a Chicago union and they are the best at screwing the taxpayers.

This is a lie.

marcus says

The average teacher puts in at least 50 hours per week.

Marcus, that's based on what they (teachers, or as I call them disinformation facilitators) self-report.

It's like asking teenager guys if they have sex - 90% do, 70% with Pamela Anderson.

FortWayne says

The low standards, someone did lobby for that

It's impossible to describe the degree to which you don't know what you're talking about. It's the most absurd thing that's been said in this entire thread.

It would take someone like Rush, or Glenn or you FW to get from lobbying against testing kids to death, to lobbying for low standards.

Look up "common core standards" soon most districts in the country will actually be using the same (or similar standards) for many reasons, including the fact that if someone moves from one state to antoher, they can expect very simila curriculum.

You might hear years ago of unions lobbying against standardization in and of itself, because they wanted to be trusted to teach well and not be given a prescribed (scripted) canned curriculum. Or you might have heard teachers lobbying against excessive testing.

Both of these are a far cry from lobbying for lower standards. I really do despise the propaganda sellers who say this stuff, and know that there are people out there stupid enough to buy it.

AlexS says

Marcus, that's based on what they (teachers, or as I call them disinformation facilitators) self-report.

You don't think teachers spend 50 hours per week, mainly filling out bullshit paperwork?

Teachers aren't lazy. They have one of the worst jobs in the world.

That said, I think the public school system is a joke. But its not the fault of teachers.

Without parental involvement, children aren't going to do the work necessary to learn.

marcus says

This is a lie.

Probably but can you be sure sure without a lot more info? Given the way systems can be gamed I would not be surprised to discover a very lucky few were able to make out like bandits. For all you know its hush money to keep him quiet about the superintendent and the 4H sheep

AlexS says

Marcus, that's based on what they (teachers, or as I call them disinformation facilitators) self-report.

I'm a teacher and I put in way more than 50 hours a week. I'll grant you that the 3:07pm - 5:30 pm is not the most productive, whether it be meetings or me working in my room, because I'm kind of burnt out at that time of day. And then there's additional work I take home, which either get's done that night, or becomes more after school work for the next day.

No I said 50 hrs average to factor in PE teachers and others that work a little under 40. I know teachers that put in over 70 because of all the different things they take on, and just the way they are.

wthrfrk80 says

Without parental involvement, children aren't going to do the work necessary to learn.

Hear, hear. I had two parents who would have died of shame if I'd dropped out of high school and wouldn't let me blow off schoolwork (and I was certainly lazy and shortsighted enough to have done it if I could have gotten away with it). That made more of a difference than any of my teachers.