patrick.net

wthrfrk80 says

That said, I think the whole concept of mandatory public schooling is a joke.

Compulsory education exists for a reason. Some parents would be perfectly happy to keep them at home and teach them absolutely nothing and raise savages instead of citizens. Home schoolers exist I need not remind you, but they are required to adhere to teaching the 3 R's.

I only read half the comments but I felt compelled to say how much I love that this guy econpete just made himself look like a fool.

marcus- gota love when someone tells you how much you are earning and how easy your job is, because they have a friend who told them so!

Econ-
Why don't you do something productive with your life like say, hold your breath forever.

I didn't see where you took into account the work teachers bring home.

Vicente says

Some parents would be perfectly happy to keep them at home and teach them absolutely nothing and raise savages instead of citizens.

I went to public school with mainly savages. The public schooling didn't seem to have much of an effect.

The Amish don't go to public schools and don't educate beyond 8th grade. How many of the Amish are savages?

I also find it very tough to believe that someone would tell someone else how much they are collecting from a pension, especially in this political climate, and especially if it was something ludicrous by most standards, even if it is a friend. I suspect most of these "my friend retired at 54 and is collecting 9 grand a month from a public pension!" stories are just that....stories, fabricated to increase the hatred of the villainous of the public sector.

Diane Ravitch's article should not be coupled with a teabag's opinion piece.

Ravitch has seen both sides and her experience is fortified with knowledge.
She knows what she is talking about ......

I certainly do blame teachers unions for a lot of problems with our education today. The low standards, someone did lobby for that. Costs, pension and healthcare retirement obligations that are resembling some sort of out of this world Bernie Madoff fantasy.

I remember when we used to throw money at education, and none of that ever translated into better grades or even trickled down to the students. Just got absorbed by pension obligations, and by bureaucratic administration. And as a parent when I don't think the product that I'm getting is worth paying for... well my attitude is not in favor of our current education system.

I completely disagree with the "seniority system" that they have, which is just meant to completely screw younger members in order to keep the old union elite fat and happy. That's how historically unions operated, like a ponzi scheme... they take from younger members and give it to the elite at the top. Complete immoral subjugation and indoctrination.

Pension problem is much bigger in CA, many union members don't consider it as part of their pay, they only see it as entitlement. Maybe that kind of ignorant attitude will one day go away, CA is bankrupt. Obama bailouts only lasted for 2 years.

Pat McGroin Im Irish says

One of my best friends retired at the age of 54 (30 years) from teaching in Chicago. He lives on a golf course, drives a new Lexus every year, and has a luxury Bus where he vacations to CA in the winters. His pension. He receives a check for $9,000 every month. Why is this right? It's not, but hey, he was in a Chicago union and they are the best at screwing the taxpayers.

I don't doubt this as I have a cousin who retired from a suburban Chicago district with a pension of over a 100K a year. On the other hand I have a good friend who just retired from a rural district in Il who after teaching for over thirty years with a masters degree was making in the mid forties and had taken cuts in benefits. In Il. where property taxes fund much of the public education and the State's finances are in a shamble, there is a huge disparity from district to district. Are there teachers that make more then they are worth, for sure and there are plenty that are underpaid. It is a profession where a teacher can have such a huge impact on a child's life (both for good and ill) that we just need to pay decent wages and benefits to retain good people and somehow weed out the bad, understanding that for the most part teachers want to do good work in educating our children and therefore need to get paid a decent wage.

It's obvious to see why econ pete feels the way that he does. Teachers think they're so smart, standing in front of the room like they do, judging him... judging his children, teaching stupid things like math and languages that they'll never need to know when they grow up. Trying to educate the masses is crazy, considering they might not be able to get jobs (the way things are going in our economy) and should only be taught certain catch phrases like, "would you like fries with that?"

Most of my property taxes go to pay for the school system out here. I live in an area where five kids is a small family, people are out of work and many of them can barely feed their children, yet the pop out more of them and I am paying to educate them. I feel like everyone should pay for kids' education, but if you have a shitload of them you should have to pay more to educate them or have to volunteer so many hours at the school to help out. But not to replace teachers, more like to help with the shit stuff so that teachers can... well, teach.

But econpete makes a point that private schools (or home schooling) are the way to go - right? then you don't have to interact with the 99%, the children learn segregation and how to treat other people with disdain.

Teachers never have to worry about layoffs:
http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/19004432/dekalb-county-schools-face-even-deeper-cuts-teacher-layoffs
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-05-05/california-teacher-layoffs/54767514/1
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/27/cps-set-to-lay-off-1000-t_n_885298.html

Teachers are highly paid (2011):
http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/

Teachers make so much money they buy their own supplies, drive nice cars, live in huge houses (which we all know is a sign of wealth), drink starbucks coffee for every meal... They have summers off (except, of course, for the teachers that I know, who work summer jobs to make ends meet), never work overtime, and never have to worry about some parent or child making a huge deal about something stupid.

Teachers are held to a higher moral standard, as if by being a teacher they don't drink, attend bachelor or bachelorette parties, say & do stupid human things, etc. They have complaints filed against them for looking at students wrong, taking away inappropriate materials, flunking the priveledged students, etc. They are treated like crap much of the time, have to follow guidelines set up by non-educators...

I can see why Marcus chose to be a teacher. He's probably sitting on a pile of money right now, glad to be in the public sector rather than making 30% more while working 30% less. As a social worker, I spend 1-3 hours nightly doing paperwork for which I'm not reimbursed. My teacher friends do the same - in fact, sometimes we get together and do our paperwork beside each other. It's a grown up form of parallel play...

Breaking story:

CEO's high pay is even less justified...for companies losing money or getting public bailouts.

FortWayne says

I certainly do blame teachers unions for a lot of problems with our education today. The low standards, someone did lobby for that. Costs, pension and healthcare retirement obligations that are resembling some sort of out of this world Bernie Madoff fantasy.

Standards are low because they have to be low. There are too many children of deadbeats in our public schools. It's not because of the evil teachers' unions.

FortWayne says

I completely disagree with the "seniority system" that they have, which is just meant to completely screw younger members in order to keep the old union elite fat and happy. That's how historically unions operated, like a ponzi scheme... they take from younger members and give it to the elite at the top.

They seniority system might not be a good thing, but it's not a "Ponzi scheme." It's not a "bubble" either.

Are we starting to call everything a "Ponzi scheme" or a "bubble" after the housing fiasco?

wthrfrk80 says

Standards are low because they have to be low. There are too many children of deadbeats in our public schools. It's not because of the evil teachers' unions.

This is precisely the attitude that kills our education system. Because No, standards shouldn't be low. Deadbeats are not entitled to a diploma upon birth. Diplomas are reserved for those who can demonstrate certain ability.

This is why so many teachers end up taking anti depressants when they see how this system screws children, and how badly this society gets fucked by it.

We shouldn't drag everyone down into low standards stupid equality to match mexican field workers just to make our graduation numbers look good. Best thing our teachers can do for kids who don't perform, is to fail them. Nothing gets a child and a parent involved into education like being told they are losers.

But in this education system low standards are there, so they can secure state and federal funding, which is tied to graduation rates, and pretend everything is fine, when it is not!

FortWayne says

I remember, last year on NPR. (And some NPR shows are just nuts when it comes to liberalism.)

I find it hard to sit through the Lip smacking and throat cracking.
They have a condescending, smug dictation that maximizes this effect, and the audio engineer compresses and EQ's the frequencies to further embellish it. It appears there's a thin line between being eloquent and just grossing people out.

These's Bastards can't describe sitting on a Lake doing a redneck task like Bass fishing with out trying to sound smarter than everyone else.

You're fishing Lake Allawalla get over your self!

wthrfrk80 says

They seniority system might not be a good thing, but it's not a "Ponzi scheme." It's not a "bubble" either.

Are we starting to call everything a "Ponzi scheme" or a "bubble" after the housing fiasco?

What would you call a system that knowingly promises returns that it knows it will never make, all while taking more from new members in order to pay for older existing members.

See the resemblance?

FortWayne says

They were talking about how everyone should get a diploma regardless of their ability to read and write, because they are entitled to a diploma.

I have a hard time believing NPR would advocate such a thing. If they did, shame on them.

What do lower standards and messages about "equality, entitlements and diversity" have to do with securing federal funding? Schools are generally funded at the state and local level are they not?

FortWayne says

See the resemblance?

No.

Now the social security system, on the other hand...

wthrfrk80 says

I have a hard time believing NPR would advocate such a thing. If they did, shame on them.

Dude you should tune in some time.
You folks like to chalk people for being pissed off, as to listening to too much Rush or Fox news. You want to get outraged, spend an hour in stop and go rush hour traffic listening to all things considered and fresh air.

Though truth be told I only listen to hear that Scottish contributor from the BBC, with the thick nasal Sottish accent. Secretly I keep hoping he'll say...
"If it's not Scottish it's CRAP!"

wthrfrk80 says

What do lower standards and messages about "equality, entitlements and diversity" have to do with securing federal funding? Schools are generally funded at the state and local level are they not?

A lot of funding is tied to graduation rates. So bureaucrats lower the standards so they can keep the union bosses happy, graduate few more morons, and everyone pretends the system is fine.

FortWayne says

Because No, standards shouldn't be low. Deadbeats are not entitled to a diploma upon birth. Diplomas are reserved for those who can demonstrate certain ability.

I completely agree. That's why I'm against compulsory public education beyond 8th grade. Deadbeats are deadbeats. Send them to the military or directly to prison (no, I'm not being sarcastic on this one).

FortWayne says

This is why so many teachers end up taking anti depressants when they see how this system screws children, and how badly this society gets fucked by it.

So why are you attacking teachers for making too much money?

FortWayne says

A lot of funding is tied to graduation rates.

Is that true? If so, that's insane. Agreed.

Pat McGroin Im Irish says

One of my best friends retired at the age of 54 (30 years) from teaching in Chicago. He lives on a golf course, drives a new Lexus every year, and has a luxury Bus where he vacations to CA in the winters. His pension. He receives a check for $9,000 every month. Why is this right? It's not, but hey, he was in a Chicago union and they are the best at screwing the taxpayers.

This is a lie.

marcus says

The average teacher puts in at least 50 hours per week.

Marcus, that's based on what they (teachers, or as I call them disinformation facilitators) self-report.

It's like asking teenager guys if they have sex - 90% do, 70% with Pamela Anderson.

FortWayne says

The low standards, someone did lobby for that

It's impossible to describe the degree to which you don't know what you're talking about. It's the most absurd thing that's been said in this entire thread.

It would take someone like Rush, or Glenn or you FW to get from lobbying against testing kids to death, to lobbying for low standards.

Look up "common core standards" soon most districts in the country will actually be using the same (or similar standards) for many reasons, including the fact that if someone moves from one state to antoher, they can expect very simila curriculum.

You might hear years ago of unions lobbying against standardization in and of itself, because they wanted to be trusted to teach well and not be given a prescribed (scripted) canned curriculum. Or you might have heard teachers lobbying against excessive testing.

Both of these are a far cry from lobbying for lower standards. I really do despise the propaganda sellers who say this stuff, and know that there are people out there stupid enough to buy it.

AlexS says

Marcus, that's based on what they (teachers, or as I call them disinformation facilitators) self-report.

You don't think teachers spend 50 hours per week, mainly filling out bullshit paperwork?

Teachers aren't lazy. They have one of the worst jobs in the world.

That said, I think the public school system is a joke. But its not the fault of teachers.

Without parental involvement, children aren't going to do the work necessary to learn.

marcus says

This is a lie.

Probably but can you be sure sure without a lot more info? Given the way systems can be gamed I would not be surprised to discover a very lucky few were able to make out like bandits. For all you know its hush money to keep him quiet about the superintendent and the 4H sheep

AlexS says

Marcus, that's based on what they (teachers, or as I call them disinformation facilitators) self-report.

I'm a teacher and I put in way more than 50 hours a week. I'll grant you that the 3:07pm - 5:30 pm is not the most productive, whether it be meetings or me working in my room, because I'm kind of burnt out at that time of day. And then there's additional work I take home, which either get's done that night, or becomes more after school work for the next day.

No I said 50 hrs average to factor in PE teachers and others that work a little under 40. I know teachers that put in over 70 because of all the different things they take on, and just the way they are.

wthrfrk80 says

Without parental involvement, children aren't going to do the work necessary to learn.

Hear, hear. I had two parents who would have died of shame if I'd dropped out of high school and wouldn't let me blow off schoolwork (and I was certainly lazy and shortsighted enough to have done it if I could have gotten away with it). That made more of a difference than any of my teachers.

New renter says

I would not be surprised to discover a very lucky few were able to make out like bandits

Some do. But that story is obviously BS, especially if the teacher was actually in Chicago. If they were in one of the highest paying suburbs? Even then, I just don't see it at 54. 64 sure. If he wanted to make up some slightly more believable BS, he should have said 64.

It's interesting to me that the same kind of person that wants to rant against teachers is the type that just makes up some lie to drive their point home.

New renter says

For all you know its hush money to keep him quiet about the superintendent and the 4H sheep

lol. I'm not sure which would be worse: the 4H sheep or the 9th grade cheerleaders.

bdrasin says

Hear, hear. I had two parents who would have died of shame if I'd dropped out of high school and wouldn't let me blow off schoolwork (and I was certainly lazy and shortsighted enough to have done it if I could have gotten away with it). That made more of a difference than any of my teachers.

Absolutely. Why do you think the Asian kids do so well? It isn't the teachers.

It's a race to the bottom for America. Hang on.

wthrfrk80 says

Teachers aren't lazy. They have one of the worst jobs in the world.

How is their job worst than that of roofers? Cab drivers? Alaska fishermen? Enough of this sobbing already, and let's call spade a spade. Also keep in mind that thanks to roofers we have roof over our heads, tx to cabbies we can get to work and airport on time, and tx to fisherman we can eat fish - and their failure rate of delivery is much lower than teachers (50%+ of graduating kids can't read or do simple math)

Public school (just as everything government) is a joke. It's just an expensive babysitting arrangement. YOu are right, it's not just teachers, but also "administrators" and other overhead (50% in public schools, only 10% in private schools), and the whole system.

Also, plz save the "without parental involvement" comment - both parents are out working to pay the insane taxes (including income, payroll, state, local, sales, property, user fees, and INFLATION tax, and gazillion more). Nowadays it is almost impossible for family to survive on single income, hence another parent can't spend time with kids.

True example of government breaking your kneecaps, giving you crutches and saying - see without us you wouldn't be able to walk.

AlexS says

How is their job worst then that of roofers? Cab drivers? Alaska fishermen?

Roofers, fisherman, and cab drivers, don't get a lot of people slandering that they are "layabouts" who smoke cigars in the lounge between their long summer breaks. Teachers get a lot of UNDESERVED crap thrown on them, and you wonder why they don't stick with it longer..... I had a commercial fisherman buddy, who used to spend a pretty fair amount time on dry land drinking and partying, but I never heard people denigrating his "undeserved" time off.

Vicente says

Teachers get a lot of UNDESERVED crap thrown on them, and you wonder why they don't stick with it longer.....

Again, enough of this crap already. Teachers whine the most about being underpaid and overworked. No one, NOT ANYONE, no other single profession whines more than teachers. Not even privates stuck in sandbox 5,000+ miles away whine more than teachers. And when they are not whining about being underpaid, they whine about how they are not in it for the money...

AlexS says

Not even privates stuck in sandbox 5,000+ miles away whine more than teachers.

I'd like to see you QUANTIFY that.

Military in my family EXCEL AT COMPLAINTS about everything from VA hospitals to the shoes and food. But it's probably because they are stuck in a socialist system where the government is their Mom & Dad. Strange the Republicans haven't moved to abolish all that Federal Socialism in the military.

YMMV.

marcus says

Some do. But that story is obviously BS, especially if the teacher was actually in Chicago. If they were in one of the highest paying suburbs? Even then, I just don't see it at 54. 64 sure. If he wanted to make up some slightly more believable BS, he should have said 64.

Most people just lump the Chicago area together as "Chicago" My cousin with the 6 figure pension retired in her 60's worked in Highland Park district. I forget what she told me they spent per child, but it was huge. Also people should keep in mind when they see a retired teacher driving new luxury cars that like other people many teachers have other income and sometimes other jobs.

AlexS says

It's just an expensive babysitting arrangement.

"This September, public schools provided almost 70 percent of the students entering Harvard"

That was 2009
http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/harvarddean-part5/

I read elsewhere that 68% of the class of 2015 are from public schools.

AlexS says

Also, plz save the "without parental involvement" comment

Nobody is arguing that it isn't tough these days, but still it's a big factor. Although, I think those students who have the really great combination of high aptitude and work ethic are no longer responding to parental pressure by the time they are in high school. Those habits are formed very early, and I think for some kids it just happens without even unusual involvement on the parent's part.

rdm says

My cousin with the 6 figure pension retired in her 60's worked in Highland Park district.

That's very believable, because it's highland park and because she was in her sixties.

AlexS says

It's just an expensive babysitting arrangement......Nowadays it is almost impossible for family to survive on single income, hence another parent can't spend time with kids.

I know plenty of people with one spouse and often kids at home. Some are doing home schooling. Surprised you think it's impossible to do? Why? Do these people know some trick you don't? One for example the husband is a paper-shuffler in the prison system and is below $40K, and the wife stays at home other than some church work. Perhaps it's because they don't have a McMansion and 3 Escalades in the driveway like you?

Of course VERY few of these kids win Nobel prizes or become CEO or SC judges but that's another topic.