patrick.net

robertoaribas says

These teachers are motivated and care about their students

Yes, teachers are great, they have hard jobs, and most teachers do them well. My wife is a teacher. I have no problem with teachers.

But the teachers' union is definitely screwing over students, chewing up money, preventing reform, and corrupting lawmakers with truly massive campaign bribes.

But the teachers' union is definitely screwing over students, chewing up money, preventing reform, and corrupting lawmakers with truly massive campaign bribes.

No argument there but as a person who believe that unions are the only way for employees to avoid virtual (or literal) slavery what is one to do?

It's all fair play in the private sector, where unions really are the only counterweight to corporate power, but I question the need for public-employee unions to exist at all.

Who are public-employee unions fighting against? Us taxpayers?

The solution to public employee grievances should be through the democratic process, not through holding the public hostage.

Unions and "No Child Left Behind". Two things that killed public education in US.

There is exactly ZERO motivation for a teacher to make his students best they can be. All motivation is misdirected into "not leaving behind".

Those two things make teaching profession very predictable, guided and guarded - in other words, a magnet for mediocracy. Teachers who excel have a choice - they can go to private sector and forfeit taxpayer-sponsored backing, or they can fight the current. They have it hard.

Edit: this probably belongs in the other thread, "what's wrong with public education" thread. Oh well.

It's all fair play in the private sector, where unions really are the only counterweight to corporate power, but I question the need for public-employee unions to exist at all.

Agreed. At least in private unions - both sides are represented. With public unions, it's government employees on both sides of the table distributing taxpayer loot.

The results are obvious. Obscene public salaries, pensions, medical benefits, vacations.

This won't last - cities will eventually declare bankruptcies, the sooner the better - but in the mean time the public sector is grabbing as much as it can get.

Like reptiles, with no sense of what it means for the future, or what will happen when everything is stolen.

robertoaribas says

charter schools have a HUGE advantage:

1. forget about special ed... Your kid has a reading problem? go to public school. Public schools, with their limited budgets, have to educate EVERY kid that shows up...

2. behavioral issue? kick them out... Public schools don't have that choice, so easily.

so, the comparison is ridiculous.

Teachers are quitting in droves ,and why wouldn't they? today's parents harass them, sue them, and don't hold their own kids accountable for anything. Meanwhile, they are vilified for being "over-payed lazy government workers" , states have frozen or reduced their pay for years, many states 'fire' all of them every spring due to budget issues, and they have to wait and see if they are hired back. Who the hell would sign up for that career? I left engineering to teach college, but no way in hell I would have ever worked in a public k-12 school!

The reason why parents harass teachers so much is because they have been enabled to so by mostly leftist politics (though I am not a fan of those labels). New-age educational bullshitters and so-called expert psychologist coming out with new rules on how to raise a child and with plenty of dont's, eps. in the disciplinary department. teachers have no power to reprimand a kid (let alone using force/violence to break up a fight) or give them deservedly bad grades without the fear of getting fired/sued. Even if a teacher isn't always fair that is part of life like a bad decision by a referee and kids have to learn that life isn't always fair and not everybody is always a winner, they also have to learn that if the screw up that there are can be consequences beyond smooth talk, even involving responses using force that they may not like.

Lol, keep in mind, most teachers are women, schools, mostly run by them as well, they chase men right out of the school system, usually by some sexual abuse claim or another. Seen it happen to quite a few men teachers.

Not to hard to figure these things out really.

School is back on and I shouldn't even get involved with the forum now.

Suffice it to say that I am surprised to see such sillness from Patrick of all people.

Wow, I just saw "Waiting For Superman" on DVD.

I have posted this many times before.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/myth-charter-schools/?pagination=false

There is a lot of propaganda out there on this subject, but at present I don't have time to fight it.

YOPu're right good teachers don't deserve contracts, they should be fired at 45 and replaced with 22 year olds, or better yet projectionists.
The savings could go to shareholders or managers.

I just want good teachers to be paid well, and bad teachers to be paid poorly, or to be fired before they can damage yet more children.

The teachers unions are violently opposed to all pay differentials, and to firing any teacher for poor teaching, ever.

True, or not true?

I just want good teachers to be paid well, and bad teachers to be paid poorly, or to be fired before they can damage yet more children.

The teachers unions are violently opposed to all pay differentials, and to firing any teacher for poor teaching, ever.

True, or not true?

As best I can tell, NO teacher gets paid well in CA, if by "well" you mean "enough to afford a decent middle class lifestyle". At least not in the SF Bay Area. As far as being fired, as best I can tell unions just protect due process...yes, this sometimes results in inefficiencies but without union protection there would be NO reason for an educated, capable person who wasn't independently wealthy to go into teaching.

I kind of doubted the huge clout that the movie claimed the teachers' unions have in federal politics until I checked it out:

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

be sure to keep #25 alive and well.. the rest can go! just save the beer!

"National Beer Wholesalers Assn"

http://www.youtube.com/embed/BtgSCZ7eLQQ&feature=fvwrel

Yes, I see that the teachers' unions mostly donate to Democratic candidates. The Democrats suck for taking their money.

You can also see that the top 20 donors in that table are heavily Democratic. This is the problem with our democracy.

Note to the liberal blockheads that try deny the obvious: the top private donors among the 20 are evenly split between DemonRats and Republicans. So stop bitching about the evil corporations. The unions are much more evil and partisan.

The teachers unions are violently opposed to all pay differentials, and to firing any teacher for poor teaching, ever.

True, or not true?

Say I'm at a school that is somewhat diverse. There are some very unmotivated kids that don't want to be there, and who usually refuse to participate. They are way behind, very difficult to work with and with terrible attitudes for a number of reasons.

Right at the same school we have some highly motivated extremely bright students who are hungry to learn and an absolute pleasure to teach. It's challenging teaching them too, because you have to come
up with interesting lessons, but it's so much easier because of the positive results which energize you as a teacher.

It might be more rewarding in the cases where you reach and turn around students in the first category. But it's much easier to reach (and even turn on) students in the second category.

Gee, I wonder which ones I would want to be working with if my pay was based on how successful I am as a teacher ?

Is this helping you to understand ? OR should I break it down further ?

By the way it isn't always my choice who I teach, so I guess I better start brown nosing the administrators who do make that choice, if we are going to start being compensated based on results. What comes first that chicken or the egg ? Is it having the success with those great students so that the administrator assign you those classes (or so you will maybe get a lower paying job at a school teaching those kids all day). Or is it just getting that assignment once and proving yourself ?

FYI, I am a public high school teacher and I usually teach both groups. That is some classes that are mostly average to below average students, and some classes that are comprised mostly of gifted kids.

It's probably hard to comprehend, but some of the greatest teachers are working in very tough situations with very difficult kids and having only marginal success. That is reaching some kids, but not nearly as many as they would like.

And there are mediocre meh teachers having far more success working with hungry well motivated well behaved students.

So you tell me, how do you propose to reward teachers based on performance ? Under the current system, what often happens is that teachers cut their teeth and pay their dues working in really difficult situations and work their way up after earning seniority to teaching older and or better motivated students. At least that's how it often works at the high school level.

THis isn't always so unfair. Sometimes it is, if the teacher isn't all that good. But that doesn't happen as much as some people want to believe.

marcus says

So you tell me, how do you propose to reward teachers based on performance ?

Everyone pretty much knows who the great teachers are who the bad teachers are, no matter what conditions they are teaching in.

The principal, the other teachers, the parents, the students. All of them know it, but no one is allowed to act on that knowledge because of the teacher's unions.

I propose we use what everone knows to reward teachers based on performance.

Everyone pretty much knows who the great teachers are who the bad teachers are, no matter what conditions they are teaching in.

Most teachers fall somewhere between, but may look better than they are or worse than they are depending on the students they are teaching. I know this because with some groups I grade myself as being pretty darn good. With other groups I give myself a fairly low grade.

At a typical above average public high school, would you care to venture a guess as to what percentage of teachers are "great" and what percentage are "bad."

WOOT! Congrats Patrick!

Glad you have opened your mind a bit.

I have some experience with the topic covered in Waiting for Superman.

I helped write the software the the "No Child Left Behind" Act for states to accurately census children in school districts.

The union problem for public schools goes deeper than you think.

The unions have these NGO entities (non-profits) for school districts. And the guys who are running the show hide behind these entities.

One of the great scams they use (and used more before the SSID implementation) was to over report student populations. For each student record reported, the school would get $ from the federal govt. (in 2001 this was about $3,500) So, the scammers would submit false records creating duplicate children. "Larry M" becomes "Larry M", "Barry M", etc.

This infestation has been ongoing for DECADES, and it's time to put a stop to it.

Larry

Merit pay would not work because teachers would not fail students...all of a sudden that F becomes a D...that C- becomes a B+....why not if it nets me another 15 grand. Standards would go to hell. Merit pay is a terrible idea and believe me public unions have to fight for lousy 3% raises that barely keep up with inflation. There is no free lunch.

i saw a bunch of stuff telling me there were WMD in Iraq.

Turns out that was garbage.

Think the same applies here. The biggest problem in education is No Child Left Behind. It has tied teacher rewards to standardized test scores, so now the strongest motivations to KEEP your job is to spend every effort ensuring they get good scores. Maybe it was intended to be a carrot, but instead it's a stick. Teachers know that in budget cuts the first teachers to be cut, and schools to be shut down, will be those with low test scores.

woppa says

Merit pay is a terrible idea and believe me public unions have to fight for lousy 3% raises that barely keep up with inflation. There is no free lunch.

Many teachers unions have accepted pay cuts since 2008.

I know Marcus. But try telling those who think the public sector is like hitting the lotto. LOL

LarryPatrickMaloney says

One of the great scams they use (and used more before the SSID implementation) was to over report student populations. For each student record reported, the school would get $ from the federal govt. (in 2001 this was about $3,500) So, the scammers would submit false records creating duplicate children. "Larry M" becomes "Larry M", "Barry M", etc.

If you could document that, you'd be doing a public service, and you should have protection as a whistleblower. Maybe you could even get a reward.

Again, let me say I love teachers in general. I do not think test scores should be used to reward or punish teachers, because they really cannot control test scores.

We should use what the community knows personally about the different teachers. Hell, just let PARENTS visit classrooms at any time (that's currently forbidden you know) and let the parents vote on which teachers are best. Make those parental votes count for raises or demotions.

Done. Simple, fair, and responsive to parent feedback. And it will be shot down by the teachers' unions, 100% guaranteed.

We should use what the community knows personally about the different teachers. Hell, just let PARENTS visit classrooms at any time (that's currently forbidden you know) and let the parents vote on which teachers are best. Make those parental votes count for raises or demotions.

I love Patrick and appreciate this forum, but this isn't one of your better ideas. One of the ongoing issues in America is the continuing fight between religious fundamentalists and the teaching of science, especially evolution. Also prayer in schools is another issue. Those who feel most doubtful about their "faith," and similarly those who feel most sinful, are particularly motivated to proselytize and even go to extreme measures to compensate for their own doubts and sins by punishing the "infidels." Witness the guy who shot a physician who provided abortions, because a supposedly omnipotent god somehow needed help and a rifle. Several of these "Christian dominion" groups have organized campaigns to get their followers elected to school boards, for example, and sometimes they win. Inviting all of their adherents into the classroom "at any time" and allowing them to vote on which teachers they say "are best," granting raises to the "intelligent design" proponents and demotions to heathens, would be a disaster. We had some Einstein quotes recently, but my favorite was actually sent to him in a letter that he saved as an example of the hate mail he received. The founder of a tabernacle in Oklahoma told Einstein, "‘Take your crazy, fallacious theory of evolution and go back to Germany where you came from.” This would not bode well for teaching.

P.S. Aside from the religious fundamentalist parents (who breed prodigiously), there are also the helicopter parents, who would show up every test day to "encourage" their progeny, and the whacked out parents who would show up and embarrass their kids. I have to acknowledge one advantage though of parents in the classroom, if they want their kids to be over-medicated you could say they have to administer the pills themselves instead of conscripting teachers into dosing the kids with pills the teachers rightly suspect are probably unhealthy. The Medicaid/CHIP kids are especially vulnerable to this, often hit with four different prescriptions in combinations that have never been tested, dosed every day so they never recover, with lifetime side effects by the time they're teens. Bad enough the parents are doing that at home, under orders from doctors who are under the influence of PhRMA; even worse when teachers get dragged into complicity.

As a teacher about to get tenure in 2 weeks, I can give you a unique perspective on this. The union is definitely one of the worst aspects of teaching. I can give you a little story about my experiences two years ago.

Going through budget crunches, the local board was proposing to eliminate about 40 teaching jobs from the district and the union was completely silent throughout the whole ordeal. However, at every union meeting, they would tell us about other towns undergoing the same cuts and encouraged us go to their meetings in support. Never once did they ask for their own union members to support their own staff that was about to be cut. They were in the middle of contract negotiations and hoping the elimination of 40 positions would free up money for them to get a raise.

On a side note, teachers were going to be given the option to not participate in the pension system and the union fought it tooth and nail to ensure that its members are forced into the pension system.

The teachers union clings to policies that protect the senior teachers. The two things they cling to are tenure and seniority. In my experience, the best teachers in the district are completely against the idea of tenure. Like any profession, I'd gather 10 to 15% of the workforce is comprised of lazy people who don't do their job and these people are the ones that ruin the reputation of the rest of the people in the profession. The union swears that teachers who do absolutely nothing don't exist, but the reality is, they do, and they are untouchable. A district would have to rack up close to 400k in legal fees to get them detenured and fired. The other policy they cling to is seniority. Last in first out during budget cuts is their preferred policy. I've seen it happen throughout the state. A young enthusiastic teacher is forced to be bounced around from district to district and they do budget cuts every year. Meanwhile, there are senior teachers who are near worthless who are protected via seniority during reduction in force job eliminations. The union will always cling to the notion that a district would simply replace the older teachers with younger inexperienced teachers at a lower cost.

The reality is, most teachers I know slave to death for a lackluster salary. Anyone who disagrees, I would beg you to try the job for a year and see how long you last. I've worked in manual labor, I've worked on farms, and this is by far, the most physically and mentally taxing job there is if you are dedicated to your profession. To the union members that will claim older teachers will simply be replaced...good luck with that. The older teachers that have the most respect in my district are worth their weight in gold.

The union is designed to protect the incompetent and senior members of the establishment. They could care less about the lower members on the rung as long as they get theirs first. They are against any policies that would actually hold teachers accountable for what they do in the classroom.

As far as school policies, none of it matters. No one even thinks about "No Child Left Behind" act. Every teacher does what they want to do and some choose to hold themselves to a high standard while others choose to run a classroom that is a complete joke. I know everyone can think back to the teachers they had. You probably had some amazing ones that brought their A game to work every day. Then, you had some others, that were probably the saddest excuse for a professional that you'd ever met.

As far as politics within the union, it's basically, vote democrat by default, regardless of who is running.

Again, let me say I love teachers in general. I do not think test scores should be used to reward or punish teachers, because they really cannot control test scores.

That's not true. For teachers who teach AP classes, it definitely is a reflection of your teaching. I teach AP Physics and I have kids acing the AP Physics exam while at the same time, they bomb their AP Calc and AP Chemistry exams. The reasons behind this are obvious.

The issue of test scores is that not everyone gets to teach the brightest students, yet the states want to give everyone the same test.

I just want good teachers to be paid well, and bad teachers to be paid poorly, or to be fired before they can damage yet more children.

The teachers unions are violently opposed to all pay differentials, and to firing any teacher for poor teaching, ever.

True, or not true?

This is completely true. In fact, my union has it specifically state in my contract that you cannot have a salary increase beyond the normal step increase each year. Its as if, they don't want you to be paid anything.

theoakman says

The issue of test scores is that not everyone gets to teach the brightest students, yet the states want to give everyone the same test.

Likewise parents can have a huge role. Parents with expertise in a particular field who spend time helping their kids study that subject may confer a significant advantage compared to kids whose parents lack the expertise, time, or inclination. Not everyone gets to teach the kids of the best parents.

The issue is the students' motivation or lack thereof and the peer groups that they associate with. Then, add the difference-maker which is the influence of parents in the form of valuing/disincetivizing education and the overall stability/ruin that they provide at home. Teachers can only and should only do so much.

curious2 says

theoakman says

The issue of test scores is that not everyone gets to teach the brightest students, yet the states want to give everyone the same test.

Likewise parents can have a huge role. Parents with expertise in a particular field who spend time helping their kids study that subject may confer a significant advantage compared to kids whose parents lack the expertise, time, or inclination. Not everyone gets to teach the kids of the best parents.

But that will vary from student to student. Two of the best teachers in my school have taken the role to teach the lowest achieving students in the district. Their kids would get creamed on a standardized test through no fault of their own.

It's not a secret who the good and bad teachers are. Everyone knows it.

http://www.amren.com/features/2012/08/education-fraud-in-la-public-schools/

This is another account from a real teacher about how teaching is futile.

foxmannumber1 says

http://www.amren.com/features/2012/08/education-fraud-in-la-public-schools/

This is another account from a real teacher about how teaching is futile.

That crap ain't teaching. All these methodoligies and new ideas are a complete waste of time and developed and pushed by people who have no basis to even claim they work. This is another aspect of the field that sucks. You get a bunch of people who are looking to revolutionize the field to make a name for themselves. They often try to distinguish themselves from other teachers by trying something new. Usually, the results are bad, yet they'll still promote them by giving talks and presentations at conferences.

I have no formal training in education and have only been teaching for 3 years. It's amazing how these people have managed to destroy the classroom and push their little ideas throughout the country. They create fads that are destined to die out. There was nothing wrong with the way we taught 40 years ago and it still works today.

I give power points during lecture, but most of the time, try to teach off the white board. I hand out problems for the kids to do. I don't try some fancy way of teaching. I tell the kids exactly what phenomena they are looking at, why it happens, and then challenge them to figure out how to solve problems.
Nothing revolutionary at all, in fact, its looked down upon by
most administrators.

I'll put my kids AP Physics scores up against anyone else trying all these fancy techniques. Half the time, the kids just want you to teach them and then go to work on the their own. They don't need some fancy planned strategy involving some revolutionary technique.

Professional development has been a complete waste of time in my experience and most of the time, it's taught by the teachers who should be at home working on lessons for their kids. All it has become is another income source for the teachers that are more focused on promoting themselves.

theoakman says

I have no formal training in education and have only been teaching for 3 years

What is the racial breakdown of your students?

If you teach any significant amount of blacks and whites, which group do you think possesses more natural intelligence?

foxmannumber1 says

theoakman says

I have no formal training in education and have only been teaching for 3 years

What is the racial breakdown of your students?

If you teach any significant amount of blacks and whites, which group do you think possesses more natural intelligence?

85% white
10 % asian
5 % indian

I'm not going to sit here and comment on specific groups for the same reason that person said in the comment section of that article, but I'd be lying to myself if I tried to convince myself that they don't live up to their stereotypes.

Thank you for your honesty.

Union bosses collect their millions in dues every year while screwing the education system and our childrens IQ drops more and more with lower standards every year.

Patrick - you hit a home run with this topic - BRAVO!

Unfortunately, NO ONE has ever been able to effect any real changes when it comes to teacher union reform.

theoakman says

The reality is, most teachers I know slave to death for a lackluster salary. Anyone who disagrees, I would beg you to try the job for a year and see how long you last.

I agree with this and much of what you say.

I also do well with my AP classes. But when I have remedial or lower track Math classes I'm never satisfied with the job I do (I'm not saying that I'm simply not satisfied with the test results - I'm literally not satisfied with my performance with these groups).

This is why I dissagree with the following.

theoakman says

That crap ain't teaching. All these methodoligies and new ideas are a complete waste of time and developed and pushed by people who have no basis to even claim they work.

In my opinion, when teaching less motivated students, you have to find ways to engage and teach to styles of learning that are different than mine and yours. The best teachers do work real cooperative learning into their plans, and they put more on the students shoulders. In your physics classes that's far easier than it is with unmotivated students who haven't developed their reasoning skills yet.

Also by the way, the very worst of the very worst teachers and the very most lazy teachers I know would agree that "That crap ain't teaching. All these methodologies and new ideas are a complete waste of time and developed and pushed by people who have no basis to even claim they work. " Just saying.

MY point isn't anything like saying that you are in that category. I'm sure you are an excellent science teacher. I'm just saying that such generalizations are just flat out wrong.

This company has some good products if you are interested in exploring cooperative learning. http://www.kaganonline.com/index.php But possibly not for any of the classes you teach.

theoakman says

The union is designed to protect the incompetent and senior members of the establishment.

AGain a stupid generalization (although I would agree that it is a little to skewed this way). Beleive me, I know of one or two of those senior teachers you are talking about, and I butt heads with them on occasion. But the union actually protects you and I should we want to stay with teaching. Maybe you don't see yourself doing this as a career. But if you did, you would appreciate that you can't be easily replace by a cheaper less experienced teacher.

(Note: In many districts it takes a very long time to move up the pay scale too)

I know from previous conversations that you are a conservative who is anti union and especially resents the contributions to democrats. Sure there are a few teachers who are anti union, but I have yet to meet a democrat teacher who is strongly against everything the teacher's union does, or who even questions that they serve our interests at least for the most part.

At the same time we are all disappointed with the union at times. For example I would like to see the union be more supportive of pension reform, and this is one of the ways that I believe they are too skewed towards the interests of the most senior members.

As usual (?) I have a different perspective on some things that are wrong with the US schools system, and as usual (?) I think the problem is a STRUCTURAL one that everyone is just completely overlooking because they just have never heard of how the rest of the world educate their children:

The main problem is that kids only have ONE teacher in each grade.

What brainiac came up with this idea? In Europe you have different teachers for each subject in each grade, although in grades 1-2 there may often be just a few teachers per classroom. The number of different teachers will increase with grade level and as more subjects are introduced.

This avoids the problem that one (rare) bad teacher completely wrecks a school-year for a certain classroom, and exposes the children to a diverse style of teaching and learning. It also serves as a cross-check between teachers because a certain classroom doing well with some teachers and not so well with others will become visible.

Am I making sense?

PS: I'm not all that certain that unions are so much to fault. I think parents are more of a problem than the teachers, although I have met a teacher or two that was very scatter-brained.

justme says

PS: I'm not all that certain that unions are so much to fault. I think parents are more of a problem than the teachers, although I have met a teacher or two that was very scatter-brained.

Teachers and unions are different. The union, is 3 or 4 people who are following orders from the union hierarchy pretending to represent the opinions and interest of its hundreds of members at the local level. Teachers come in all shapes and sizes with all types of different opinions and beliefs. The union marches to the beat of a drum and that beat hasn't changed since its inception.

marcus says

Beleive me, I know of one or two of those senior teachers you are talking about, and I butt heads with them on occasion. But the union actually protects you and I should we want to stay with teaching. Maybe you don't see yourself doing this as a career.

Totally wrong, the union got me laid off. They got 40 others in my district laid off. They were in support of layoffs because they wanted their 1.5% raise. They didn't even offer to send a rep with me or anyone else during the meeting when they were handing us our pink slips. Why did it happen? Well, I was the last one hired, so I'm the first one to go based on seniority rules. Then, a colleague of mine abruptly retired so that I could keep my job. Maybe your local runs a little different, but here in NJ, it seems to be the norm. I've met too many teachers who get laid off while the union does absolutely nothing to even try to stop it.

As far as them replacing me with someone younger years down the road. Doubtful. I can teach Math, Chemistry, & Physics. I saved the district 40k to 60k last year because they split me over 2 subjects so they didn't have to hire a new person. Sure, I'll bet some bonehead in the administration would try to do it regardless, but if that ever happens, I wouldn't want to be working for them anyway.

As far as styles of teaching go, I never said there is a right way and wrong way. What I take issue with is those that push methodologies seem to insist that their way is always the right way. Teaching is not a science, its an art, and no one should ever expect one teacher to be like the next. There's no formula to success we can point to. Teachers need to play off their personal strengths. And I do plenty of cooperative learning activities for the lower level science courses I've taught. It's inherently built into laboratory exercises. My biggest issue is that somehow a negative stigma within the profession developed towards anyone that dares lecture and teach on the white board. I'm 31 and I have people calling me old fashioned in my ways because I don't have them playing Bingo or doing "webquests", "podcast lessons".