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Housing should be priced at 1968 or earlier?


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2013 Mar 1, 4:45pm   31,665 views  95 comments

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http://thecontributor.com/40-americans-now-make-less-1968-minimum-wage

This means the gains wentsomewhere else. See if you can guess who got them? (Hint: its the 1 percent; this is one driver of the terrible income and wealth inequality.) This breakoff of wages from productivity growth is partly the result of trade agreements that pit Americans against exploited workers in non-democracies. This weakened the bargaining power of unions, moved factories and industries out of the country, devastated entire regions of our country and gave the giant multinational corporations, Wall Street and the billionaires the leverage they needed.

#housing

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18   thomaswong.1986   2013 Mar 3, 12:07pm  

Bigsby says

utterly outrageous to think that they could and should be contributing a bit more of their income towards supporting a better functioning society. Oh, the hardship! Oh, the inhumanity!

that is why Oakland, SF and Berkeley.. failed ! and from the cheap farmlands of Santa Clara comes Silicon Valley.. which made California a powerhouse economy on its own...

The local southbay cities and counties were very smart keeping out of the way as growth fueled higher incomes and thus higher taxes on their own. Growth.. what a freaking concept!

19   Bigsby   2013 Mar 3, 12:53pm  

thomaswong.1986 says

Bigsby says

utterly outrageous to think that they could and should be contributing a bit more of their income towards supporting a better functioning society. Oh, the hardship! Oh, the inhumanity!

that is why Oakland, SF and Berkeley.. failed ! and from the cheap farmlands of Santa Clara comes Silicon Valley.. which made California a powerhouse economy on its own...

The local southbay cities and counties were very smart keeping out of the way as growth fueled higher incomes and thus higher taxes on their own. Growth.. what a freaking concept!

Which has what exactly to do with taxing the wealthiest a little bit more when the country is running a massive deficit? The richest in society have had substantial tax breaks for quite some time now. That hasn't exactly translated into the most dynamic growth period in the history of the US. It has however greatly enriched them whilst everyone else...

20   thomaswong.1986   2013 Mar 3, 1:20pm  

Bigsby says

Which has what exactly to do with taxing the wealthiest a little bit more when the country is running a massive deficit? The richest in society have had substantial tax breaks for quite some time now. That hasn't exactly translated into the most dynamic growth period in the history of the US. It has however greatly enriched them whilst everyone else...

your overlooking and frankly unwilling to allow growth to take hold in an economy. that is why the liberal bastions failed.. too preoccupied with taxing the rich.. incapable of creating growth. Growth what a concept !

simply compare all the BS from the East Bay Liberal Socialist and their Taxes done little to better the common person compared to lower tax jurisdictions like Santa Clara County.

21   thomaswong.1986   2013 Mar 3, 1:21pm  

Bigsby says

That hasn't exactly translated into the most dynamic growth period in the history of the US. It has however greatly enriched them whilst everyone else...

Frankly, lowering taxes has shown to spur capital equipment purchases.. greater hiring and growth... see the 80s and 90s.

22   Bigsby   2013 Mar 3, 3:14pm  

thomaswong.1986 says

Bigsby says

That hasn't exactly translated into the most dynamic growth period in the history of the US. It has however greatly enriched them whilst everyone else...

Frankly, lowering taxes has shown to spur capital equipment purchases.. greater hiring and growth... see the 80s and 90s.

So what were past tax rates on individuals compared to those during the Bush era?

23   Reality   2013 Mar 3, 3:25pm  

Bigsby says

Yeah, it's utterly outrageous to think that they could and should be contributing a bit more of their income towards supporting a better functioning society. Oh, the hardship! Oh, the inhumanity!

What makes for a better functioning society? Everyone exercising his/her own wishes without violating someone else, or everyone being told what to do under the barrel of the gun?

In the market place, even the richest have to compete against others for the patronage of consumers; when it comes to government "service," the consumer has no real choice. Government is a monopoly by definition.

Taxing anyone to fund a government is the exact opposite of "supporting a better functioning society" in the domestic context: every single alternative service provider that does not wield the power of initiating violence is better than government the legalized initiator of violence. The only legit function of a government to preventing take-over by an even worse version of itself.

24   Reality   2013 Mar 3, 3:28pm  

Bigsby says

The richest in society have had substantial tax breaks for quite some time now. That hasn't exactly translated into the most dynamic growth period in the history of the US. It has however greatly enriched them whilst everyone else...

The richest have collected the most taxes (both through taxation and inflation) as well as have wielded the most regulatory power in recent decades. Who do you think owns and runs the government? Some of the richest of course.

The people have been deprived of the power to pick and choose which rich people to do business with, thanks to taxation and regulations.

25   Reality   2013 Mar 3, 3:32pm  

Bigsby says

So what were past tax rates on individuals compared to those during the Bush era?

The Bush Jr era was a horrendous period of taxation and inflation. Taxation has to be measured in both explicit taxation and inflation: because both have the exact same effect of directing natural and human resources away from the productive market economy where individual human beings make choices to the government sector where bureaucrats run monopolies.

26   Bigsby   2013 Mar 3, 3:43pm  

Reality says

Bigsby says

So what were past tax rates on individuals compared to those during the Bush era?

The Bush Jr era was a horrendous period of taxation and inflation. Taxation has to be measured in both explicit taxation and inflation: because both have the exact same effect of directing natural and human resources away from the productive market economy where individual human beings make choices to the government sector where bureaucrats run monopolies.

A horrendous period of inflation? Hardly. And what was so horrendous about taxation during this period? Yes, horrendously stupid giving tax breaks whilst running up a massive deficit, but that doesn't seem to be what you are saying.

27   Bigsby   2013 Mar 3, 3:45pm  

Reality says

Taxing anyone to fund a government is the exact opposite of "supporting a better functioning society" in the domestic context: every single alternative service provider that does not wield the power of initiating violence is better than government the legalized initiator of violence. The only legit function of a government to preventing take-over by an even worse version of itself.

What a load of bullshit. Unfettered capitalism is a far greater danger to the general population than any government you have or are likely to live under in the USA.

28   ELC   2013 Mar 3, 8:49pm  

Reality says

It's like accusing the left-handed people of screwing the rest of the society because top politicians are over-represented by left-handed people.

It's not at all like that.

29   American in Japan   2013 Mar 3, 9:13pm  

Why are you hating on the rich again? They create everything for Americans (I am being sarcastic, but unfortunately many believe this).

30   Reality   2013 Mar 3, 9:14pm  

Bigsby says

What a load of bullshit. Unfettered capitalism is a far greater danger to the general population than any government you have or are likely to live under in the USA.

What the heck is "unfettered capitalism"? Do you mean each person having unfettered right to his/her own life, liberty and pursuit of happiness? What exactly is wrong with that?

Or do you mean big business having unfettered access to use the government laws, regulations and licensed monopoly to screw people? That's exactly what we have thanks to you big government types.

As for any government we have or likely to live under in the USA, how about:

1. The genocide against native Americans by the US Army in the 19th century? The US Army doesn't sound like a product of free market, does it?

2. The rounding up of Japanese Americans into concentration camps by the Californian government. The Californian government doesn't sound like a free market institution, does it?

3. The waging of war on "these states" by an ex-corporate lawyer for the big corporate crony railroads in order to enforce government tariff, a prima facie act of high treason that resulted in over 600,000 dead Americans. Government subsidized railroad, government tariff, and war and draft, none of them sound like free market institutions.

31   Reality   2013 Mar 3, 9:17pm  

ELC says

Reality says

It's like accusing the left-handed people of screwing the rest of the society because top politicians are over-represented by left-handed people.

It's not at all like that.

It's worse. While left-handed and right-handed people are about equally productive. The high taxation on the more productive people and forcible transfer of resources to the less productive people makes fraud and deception against the latter all the more profitable.

32   Reality   2013 Mar 3, 9:24pm  

American in Japan says

Why are you hating on the rich again? They create everything for Americans (I am being sarcastic, but unfortunately many believe this).

While the rich is not responsible for creating everything, three facts of life are unavoidable:

1. There is always a small class of "rich and powerful" in any society. The only difference is whether such a class rise by individual consumer choice or by the political process.

2. In a relatively free market place those who have the creativity to come up with new products and services that drastically improve people's living standards usually do become part of the rich.

3. When the market individual consumer choice process is blocked, the path to rich and power detours through the political process. Then it's the real jungle rules of mutual slaughter, and war of each against all!

33   Bigsby   2013 Mar 3, 9:58pm  

Reality says

What the heck is "unfettered capitalism"? Do you mean each person have unfettered right to his/her own life, liberty and pursuit of happiness? What exactly is wrong with that?

In your la-la imagination, but back in reality...

Reality says

Or do you mean big business has unfettered access to use the government to screw the people? That's exactly what we have thanks to you big government types.

If big business was not regulated in any way by government, what exactly do you think they'd get up to? They almost fucked up the entire economy when government oversight lost its way. What if there wasn't any in the first place?

Reality says

1. The genocide against native Americans by the US Army in the 19th century? The US Army doesn't sound like a product of free market, does it?

2. The rounding of Japanese Americans into concentration camps by the Californian government. The Californian government doesn't sound like a free market institution, does it?

3. The waging of war on "these states" by an ex-corporate lawyer for the big corporate crony railroads in order to enforce government tariff? A prima facie act of high treason that resulted in over 600,000 dead Americans. Government subsidized railroad, government tariff, and war and draft, none of them sound like free market institutions.

So what? Were you alive then? Didn't think so. And your point is irrelevant to what I was saying. I didn't say governments didn't do shocking things. I said that you are far better off under a government with a role in society similar to the one you've lived under your entire life than one with a minimal role at best and where big business is utterly free to do as it pleases. Half the things you moan about are down to the encroachment of big business on government and yet you want the government completely out of the way. How about government grows a pair and reins in the excesses of big business more effectively?

34   Reality   2013 Mar 3, 10:14pm  

Bigsby says

Reality says

What the heck is "unfettered capitalism"? Do you mean each person have unfettered right to his/her own life, liberty and pursuit of happiness? What exactly is wrong with that?

In your la-la imagination, but back in reality...

I suppose you never heard of the Declaration of Independence.

Bigsby says

Reality says

Or do you mean big business has unfettered access to use the government to screw the people? That's exactly what we have thanks to you big government types.

If big business was not regulated in any way by government, what exactly do you think they'd get up to. They almost fucked up the entire economy when government oversight lost its way. What if there wasn't any in the first place?

"Government oversight" is just a fancy word for big business wielding the guns of government to screw smaller competitors and consumers. Who do you think wrote Obamacare? People who worked for the big insurance companies and would be back working for the big insurance companies again after writing the law. Who do you think Rubin, Paulson and Geithner really work for? The exact big businesses that "almost f*cked up the entire economy" What do you mean "lost its way"? That's exact it's designed to do: stripping away consumer choice among the smaller competitors so the big businesses would be "too big to fail."

Bigsby says

So what? Were you alive then? Didn't think so. And your point is irrelevant to what I was saying. I didn't say governments didn't do shocking things.

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. The three examples I gave utterly dashes any illusions about "American exceptionalism."

Bigsby says

I said that you are far better off under a government with a role in society similar to the one you've lived under your entire life than one with a minimal role at best and where big business is utterly free to do as it pleases.

Big businesses are utterly free to do as they please. Where have you been? Has any big business executive been arrested for the massive systematic mortgage frauds? None. The SEC has been running out the clock on statue of limitation for them! In fact, the government bailout that you will still have to pay for in raised taxes wouldn't even be there without the government.

Bigsby says

Half the things you moan about are down to the encroachment of big business on government and yet you want the government completely out of the way. How about about government grows a pair and reins in the excesses of big business more effectively?

What do you think "government" is? A god with its own balls or brains or hands or feet? "Government" is nothing more than a collection of individuals endowed with special privileges to interfere in other people's lives. They are prime targets to be bought off by big businesses. Without them, how would the big businesses get "government bailout"? i.e. looting of you and me to feed the big businesses.

35   Bigsby   2013 Mar 3, 10:51pm  

Reality says

I suppose you never heard of the Declaration of Independence.

Yes, but they are just words. What kind of society do you actually think you'd live in if everyone had, for example, an 'unfettered right to his/her own life'? What does that even mean? You can't just do what the fuck you like without consideration of the well being of your fellow man. Not if you actually want to live in a functioning society. And in what way has modern US society so restricted your ability to live the life you want? Is it a life free from taxes and responsibility for others that you are looking for?

Reality says

"Government oversight" is just a fancy word for big business wielding the guns of government to screw smaller competitors and consumers. Who do you think wrote Obamacare? People who worked for the big insurance companies and would be back working for the big insurance companies again after writing the law. Who do you think Rubin, Paulson and Geithner really work for? The exact big businesses that "almost f*cked up the entire economy" What do you mean "lost its way"? That's exact it's designed to do: stripping away consumer choice among the smaller competitors so the big businesses would be "too big to fail."

Err, and that's big business meddling in government, is it not? You want big business to be free to do as it pleases full-stop.

Reality says

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. The three examples I gave utterly dashes any illusions about "American exceptionalism."

It isn't an illusion. The US is in many ways a pretty exceptional country, especially for US citizens and I'm not even a US citizen. It doesn't mean it isn't free from doing terrible things, does it? And that is particularly true when a country is the most powerful in the world.

Reality says

Big businesses are utterly free to do as they please. Where have you been? Has any big business executive been arrested for the massive systematic mortgage frauds? None. The SEC has been running out the clock on statue of limitation for them! In fact, the government bailout that you will still have to pay for in raised taxes wouldn't even be there without the government.

So what? That's merely one example where government failed to step up. There are a million examples where they have. You don't want to give them the bloody opportunity in the first place, so what is your point? You're moaning about them not doing something that you don't want them to be able to do.

Bigsby says

What do you think "government" is? A god with its own balls or brains or hands or feet? "Government" is nothing more than a collection of individuals endowed with special privileges to interfere in other people's lives. They are prime targets to be bought off by big businesses. Without them, how would the big businesses get "government bailout"? i.e. looting of you and me to feed the big businesses.

And yet you'd rather place all the power in the hands of big business. A well functioning government is a powerful bulwark against the encroachment of those businesses and can and should have the interests of the population as a whole at the forefront rather than those with the deepest pockets. Everything you say is an argument in favour of stronger government, free from the influence of lobbyists and election campaigns funded by vested interests. It really wouldn't be that difficult to curb the excesses of said lobbyists and fund all campaigns with fixed and vastly reduced funds courtesy of tax payers. And yet you argue... Actually, what exactly are you arguing for?

36   Reality   2013 Mar 3, 11:30pm  

Bigsby says

Yes, but they are just words. What kind of society do you actually think you'd live in if everyone had, for example, an 'unfettered right to his/her own life'? What does that even mean?

"Life" in the context of Declaration of Independence means being alive, not arbitrarily being cut short by government officials. Quality of life comes in "Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness." I'm not surprised the tax funded public school system has failed to teach you what the word "life" means in the Declaration of Independence.

You can't just do what the fuck you like without consideration of the well being of your fellow man. Not if you actually want to live in a functioning society. And in what way has modern US society so restricted your ability to live the life you want? Is it a life free from taxes and responsibility for others that you are looking for?

Did you forget that the American Revolution was triggered by a 3% Stamp Tax and tariff on tea? Most responsibility for others comes from voluntary contracts. Being forced to serve others at gun point is called slavery . . . more importantly, you are kidding yourself if you think the real purpose of taxation is to serve other needy individuals instead of fattening the bureaucrats and cronies.

Bigsby says

Err, and that's big business meddling in government, is it not? You want big business to be free to do as it pleases full-stop.

No on both. Big businesses don't meddle in government, they OWN the government and they ARE the government, since time immemorial. "Government" is the biggest business and most monopolistic business there ever is. Who do you think are the type of people running governments? The same group of people that run big businesses.

Bigsby says

Reality says

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. The three examples I gave utterly dashes any illusions about "American exceptionalism."

It isn't an illusion. The US is in many ways a pretty exceptional country, especially for US citizens and I'm not even a US citizen. It doesn't mean it isn't free from doing terrible things, does it? And that is particularly true when a country is the most powerful in the world.

Romans once believed in "Roman exceptionalism." Guess where that got them? Being the most powerful in the world is part of the problem. Power breeds corruption.

Bigsby says

So what? That's merely one example where government failed to step up. There are a million examples where they have. You don't want to give them the bloody opportunity in the first place, so what is your point? You're moaning about them not doing something that you don't want them to be able to do.

That's a preposterous claim. Nobody suggests SEC staffers should watch porn on their jobs and prosecute the little guys while letting the big fraudsters go free (like they already do), so they can get high paying jobs at the Wall Street firms later.

Bigsby says

And yet you'd rather place all the power in the hands of big business.

How? The big business would not have any power over you when you the consumer choose to do business with the smaller competitors . . . until the government regulates the smaller competitors out of business. That's exactly what government regulations and taxes do: the smaller competitors feel more of the regulatory and tax burdens because they can not afford to buy the government.

A well functioning government is a powerful bulwark against the encroachment of those businesses and can and should have the interests of the population as a whole at the forefront rather than those with the deepest pockets.

Your theory is very much against 300 years of western enlightenment intellectual thought, and falls right into the trap of the Divine Power of the Sovereign.

Everything you say is an argument in favour of stronger government,

Every stronger government has produced even worse result.

free from the influence of lobbyists and election campaigns funded by vested interests. It really wouldn't be that difficult to curb the excesses of said lobbyists and fund all campaigns with fixed and vastly reduced funds courtesy of tax payers. And yet you argue... Actually, what exactly are you arguing for?

Can't find your strawman, can you? Lobbyists are evil, unless they advocate for your cause. Political campaigns involve so much money because the government is becoming too powerful: making buying it worth the money! duh! Guess what, you and I and small to medium businesses can't afford to pay the price of entry. The stronger you make the government, the higher the price of entry, and the more exclusive the club of buyers become, and the worse you and I and every small to medium businesses are squeezed, so the big buyers of the government can get their money's worth!

37   Robert Sproul   2013 Mar 4, 12:01am  

thomaswong.1986 says

they are called economic heroes

Here is some graphic information, in a 6 minute video, that will challenge your lapdog hero worship of the predatory class. Polls show that wealth inequality in America is vastly worse that people think it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QPKKQnijnsM

38   Zakrajshek   2013 Mar 4, 12:10am  

The chart shows productivity gains since the late seventies did not go to the workers' wages. Not only did these gains go to corporate "profits" but they've also taken more for themselves by constantly whittling away or eliminating worker health and retirement benefits. The corporate elite-sters in their greed induced frenzy, won't be satisfied until they can sell a $1 junk gadget for $1000, by paying everyone minimum wage with no benefits (except their butt-kissing extraordinare golf buddy VPs). I think they are getting close to that goal.

39   Robert Sproul   2013 Mar 4, 12:24am  

Reality says

What the heck is "unfettered capitalism"? Do you mean each person having unfettered right to his/her own life, liberty and pursuit of happiness? What exactly is wrong with that?

People commonly confuse "unfettered capitalism" with the current system of crony, Cartel Capitalizm. Which, through it's partner the government, uses "regulation" to strengthen it's effective monopolies.

40   Reality   2013 Mar 4, 12:33am  

Zakrajshek says

The corporate elite-sters in their greed induced frenzy, won't be satisfied until they can sell a $1 junk gadget for $1000, by paying everyone minimum wage with no benefits

Driving the price of a $1 junk gadget to $1000 takes regulations that ban all smaller competitors that are willing to sell the gadget for $2, $3, $4, . . . $998, $999. That's what the medical industry has become.

Benefits of a job is the wage. Union style "benefits" are just a scam on the workers so that part of the alleged pay can be stolen later.

41   CL   2013 Mar 4, 1:36am  

American in Japan says

Why are you hating on the rich again? They create everything for Americans (I am being sarcastic, but unfortunately many believe this).

Has anyone ever thought to try giving everything to the very top? Worth a shot, eh?

Maybe some if it will fall to us like crusts of bread fall to dogs?

Just crazy enough it might work! ;)

42   Reality   2013 Mar 4, 1:44am  

CL says

American in Japan says

Why are you hating on the rich again? They create everything for Americans (I am being sarcastic, but unfortunately many believe this).

Has anyone ever thought to try giving everything to the very top? Worth a shot, eh?

Maybe some if it will fall to us like crusts of bread fall to dogs?

Just crazy enough it might work! ;)

That's been tried numerous times in human history. What do you think letting the king or "the government" or "the State" owning everything is? Countries like North Korea is exactly organized according to the principle that the all-knowing and all-benevolent government-god should exert ownership to everything . . . and somehow the Great Leader will take care of everyone!

43   CL   2013 Mar 4, 1:46am  

Robert Sproul says

Here is some graphic information, in a 6 minute video, that will challenge your lapdog hero worship of the predatory class. Polls show that wealth inequality in America is vastly worse that people think it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QPKKQnijnsM

What innovation did that inequality provide for us? Did they cure cancer or anything?

Or was that just idle capital?

44   Reality   2013 Mar 4, 2:24am  

CL says

What innovation did that inequality provide for us? Did they cure cancer or anything?

Or was that just idle capital?

The personal computer, smart phone, or tablet that you are typing from, for example. It's the profit motives at Apple, Intel, Microsoft and etc. that made the rapid of advancement of personal computer possible. The government bureaucrats in every country worked hard on mainframes at the time and dismissed personal computer as something that nobody would want or would be able to afford.

Cure for cancer? Politicians may promise it, but it will be up to the individual researchers to find the ever increasing arrays of solutions to cure different kinds of cancers. The more choices of employment that talented researchers can find, the more research freedom they will have and the less bureaucratic red tape on their creativity.

45   Robert Sproul   2013 Mar 4, 2:24am  

CL says

Or was that just idle capital?

Swag baby.
Here is a peek:
http://richkidsofinstagram.tumblr.com

46   Robert Sproul   2013 Mar 4, 2:30am  

Reality says

Cure for cancer?

Pharma has an institutional bias against cures.
Treatment, long term treatment, that's the ticket for fire hose cash flows.

47   CL   2013 Mar 4, 2:44am  

Reality says

The personal computer, smart phone, or tablet that you are typing from, for example. It's the profit motives at Apple, Intel, Microsoft and etc. that made the rapid of advancement of personal computer possible. The government bureaucrats in every country worked hard on mainframes at the time and dismissed personal computer as something that nobody would want or would be able to afford

I think you could argue that the more comfortable the comforted get, the LESS innovation there is. Why risk anything when you have excess?

Where is the motive when you already have millions or billions?

Keeping up with your fellow billionaires might be all they have? Vanity, not necessity.

48   Reality   2013 Mar 4, 3:07am  

CL says

I think you could argue that the more comfortable the comforted get, the LESS innovation there is. Why risk anything when you have excess?

You are describing the mentality of a government bureaucrat. Whereas in the competitive private sector, your business designing, making and selling an iPad is constantly at risk of customers switching their loyalty to some Droids . . . it's called capital obsolescence. That's why some of the richest families like the Rockerfellers and Kennedy's turned to government so their offsprings would become government bureaucrats free from the market competitive pressure.

Where is the motive when you already have millions or billions?

Keeping up with your fellow billionaires might be all they have? Vanity, not necessity.

So how did iPod, iPhone and iPad come about? Steve Jobs was worth several hundred million dollars if not billions before any of them came along. Why didn't he quit working in 1980 or so when he made his first several millions? Because life is not about keeping up with fellow billionaires in the entreprenuerial world, but about keeping customers and attracting more customers.

What you described is exactly the sort of bureaucratic mentality that kills innovation whenever the government takes over R&D in a country.

49   Robert Sproul   2013 Mar 4, 3:27am  

Reality says

CL says

What innovation did that inequality provide for us? Did they cure cancer or anything?

Or was that just idle capital?

The personal computer, smart phone, or tablet that you are typing from, for example. It's the profit motives at Apple, Intel, Microsoft and etc. that
made the rapid of advancement of personal computer possible.

Our unprecedented income inequality (and it's political effects) is the issue.
Does it advance or retard profit driven innovation?

50   Reality   2013 Mar 4, 3:51am  

Robert Sproul says

Our unprecedented income inequality (and it's political effects) is the issue.

Does it advance or retard profit driven innovation?

I'm actually not convinced that our current income inequality is unprecedented, either in world history or in American history. The current income inequality in countries like North Korea, China and Saudi Arabia is far worse than that of the US. In an economy where a significant portion of the population died of starvation whereas the leaders and their family never exposed to hunger, that's is far worse income inequality than what we have today. Counting monetary income without counting power is meaningless, as people earn money in order to get power of moving real physical resources and human labor.

The problem we have is actually political power that has broken free from the constraints imposed by an honest money system, just like in North Korea, China and all the other despotic countries in world history. That makes some participants in the economy unaccountable to their fellow human beings. Having living demi-gods walking around is never a good thing for a society.

51   CL   2013 Mar 4, 3:55am  

Robert Sproul says

Does it advance or retard profit driven innovation?

What motivates them what's got already? Another golden toilet?

Reality says

Steve Jobs was worth several hundred million dollars if not billions before any of them came along. Why didn't he quit working in 1980 or so when he made his first several millions?

Indeed. What did motivate him? Not wealth, since he already had enough.

So, what motivates the non-Jobs folks? Not everyone in that class is Jobs-like, are they? Especially if they've inherited their vast sums.

If the cream rises, let them make it so after we've taken away their privilege.

52   Zakrajshek   2013 Mar 4, 4:00am  

I have often suspected this from seeing the economic results of lowering tax rates on the wealthy from the 90% rates of the 1960s. Paradoxically, it could be that the lower tax rates on the rich (ie allowing them to become too rich, too rapidly) have actually suppressed inovation and business formation... and led to less jobs. Why start a factory when they can manipulate and play the markets and only pay a capital gains tax rate of 15%?

53   Reality   2013 Mar 4, 4:03am  

CL says

Indeed. What did motivate him? Not wealth, since he already had enough.

Jobs had his ideas and ego. More importantly, unless you think we should make men like Jobs into Kings (or more precisely modern dictators), Jobs had to convince other people to invest in his ideas. That takes profitability. Honest money is a system of accounting, making everyone accountable for his action in the economy . . . instead of the silly nonsense that the typical Socialist Commonwealth engage in like the Soviet Union did in the 1920's, Red China did in the 1960's. If the North Koreans were running under an honest money system instead of under leadership charisma and propaganda, they'd be allocating resources to food production instead of to national defense against imaginary enemies (an imaginary war that Krugman insists would be good for the economy).

So, what motivates the non-Jobs folks? Not everyone in that class is Jobs-like, are they? Especially if they've inherited their vast sums.

A free market can take resources away from wasteful heirs much faster than political systems. In fact, political systems tend to entrench the rich . . . as Rockerfeller Jr., Kennedy Jr., Bush Jr., Gore Jr. all have a natural born advantage over others that nobody can take away from them: the family name!

If the cream rises, let them make it so after we've taken away their privilege.

Why don't you tell that to the Rockerfeller Jrs, Kennedy Jrs, Bush Jrs and Gore Jrs.

54   Reality   2013 Mar 4, 4:12am  

Zakrajshek says

have often suspected this from seeing the economic results of lowering tax rates on the wealthy from the 90% rates of the 1960s. Paradoxically, it could be that the lower tax rates on the rich (ie allowing them to become too rich, too rapidly) have actually suppressed inovation and business formation... and led to less jobs. Why start a factory when they can manipulate and play the markets and only pay a capital gains tax rate of 15%?

The premise that the 1960's real tax rate was 90% is preposterous. Even when those brackets existed, almost nobody was dumb enough to pay them. Why would you compensate someone $1M when you know $900k will never reach him?

A second missing part of your analysis is that: the tax money has to go somewhere. The political fighting over the tax money and regulatory advantages has taken precedence over innovation in many sectors of the economy, such as medicine and banking, precisely the areas where government regulations have made them extremely costly to the consumers and taxpayers (forced consumers of government "services")

55   Robert Sproul   2013 Mar 4, 6:04am  

Reality says

Having living demi-gods walking around is never a good thing for a society.

Indeed, that breakdown in the rule of law is a turning point. There is little to resist further inequity.
Rob a convenience store and get 12 plus 5, blatantly steal billions (shout out to John Corzine) and lay low for a spell while you get some laws changed to your advantage.
I like to analogize it to a board game, say Monopoly, where one player gets to change a small rule that is inconveniencing him, say every 3rd round. This cumulative advantage assures his victory and also assures that the other players are not going to enjoy losing.
In fact they are going to hate his fucking guts.

56   CL   2013 Mar 4, 6:58am  

Reality says

Why would you compensate someone $1M when you know $900k will never reach him?

Certainly you know how marginal taxes work, so why would you do such rotten math?

57   ELC   2013 Mar 4, 6:59am  

Reality says

big business would not have any power over you when you the consumer choose to do business with the smaller competitors . . . until the government regulates the smaller competitors out of business. That's exactly what government regulations and taxes do: the smaller competitors feel more of the regulatory and tax burdens because they can not afford to buy the government.

I remember when mom and pop stores ruled. It totally sucked. Higher, inconsistent pricing. A big fight any time you tried to return something. They got what they deserved. Mom and pop establishments still live in the restaurant business and it's hard to find a mom and pop where there's consistent food quality and service. There SHOULD be a law against morons owning their own business.

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