patrick.net

marcus says

Is this true even if you start the fight (please I know Zimmerman's story is that Martin jumped him).

In Florida, yes.

marcus says

But I want to know, if you start a fight without hardly getting a punch in and the the other guy is wailing on you. When he stops do you then have the right to shoot him dead ?

In Florida, yes.

You may be intrigued at the type of people who get released because of stand your ground, and the situations where they kill someone. Gang members in a gun battle unload an AK-47 into another gang member? Can't prove that the AK fired the first shot? They walked covered by stand your ground.

People have successfully used stand your ground as a defense when having shot people in the back who were walking away.

marcus says

Is this true even if you start the fight

No, if you start the fight you deserve your asswhooping or to be shot yourself.

Then why isn't Zimmerman in prison?

Moderate Infidel says

marcus says

Is this true even if you start the fight

No, if you start the fight you deserve your asswhooping or to be shot yourself.

StillLooking says

Then why isn't Zimmerman in prison?

GZ was never charged with starting a fight.

He was charged with murder 2. The charge of manslaughter was added at the end of his trial.

GZ is not in prison because he was found not guilty on all counts.

Move on. You're wasting effort after the not guilty verdict.

The only relevant talk left concerning the death of TM is a potential civil rights case or a civil suit by TM's parents. None of those cases have merit I believe.

CL says

George Zimmerman rescues family from truck crash last week, police say

Still playing cop it seems.

I'm guessing he was listening to the police scanner and beat the police to getting there by less than a minute. I don't think he's ever going to get his wish of being a real cop.

The more you make fun of GZ the more you give him and his kind power.

leo707 says

People have successfully used stand your ground as a defense when having shot people in the back who were walking away.

I guess the thinking is that as long as we can get enough of the bad guys, and possible bad guys in prison, then it's kind of cool to have murder be semi-legal for the rest of us.

StillLooking says

Then why isn't Zimmerman in prison?

He will forever be a prisoner of your deep seated desire to destroy him.

Call it Crazy says

Also, calling someone an "asshole who always gets away" isn't legal grounds for getting the crap beat out of you...

No it just lends credence to the idea that Zimmerman stalked Matin thinking he was a bad guy, and that very very likely the way that events unfolded in nothing like Zimmermans story about Martin going for his gun and saying you're going to die tonight motherfucker, right before Zimmerman shot him in the heart.

If Martin went for Zimmerman's gun, then how is that Zimmerman was helpless under Martin. It should be Zimmerman that got shot if Martin was so overpowering.

marcus says

Call it Crazy says

Also, calling someone an "asshole who always gets away" isn't legal grounds for getting the crap beat out of you...

No it just lends credence to the idea that Zimmerman stalked Matin thinking he was a bad guy, and that very very likely the way that events unfolded in nothing like Zimmermans story about Martin going for his gun and saying you're going to die tonight motherfucker, right before Zimmerman shot him in the heart.

What are "para metrics"??
Are you related to Roberto??

leo707 says

No one other than Zimmerman, and Zimmerman-apologists view(ed) Zim's injuries as anything significant.

Not his expert witness, not the prosecutions expert witness, not the para metrics at the scene,

Goran_K says

CL says

What were the extent of his wounds again? A broken nose? That's a punch.

Lacerations? Please. I got worse in my wrestling and judo days. Never shot a kid, either.

But, from the Defense's point of view they had to establish his "fear", don't you agree?

You mean you got worse in your dojo, with mats, and where your training partners were "practicing" moves on you?

You think training partners practicing moves on you in a controlled environment is the same as a violent street encounter?

You're kidding me right?

You prove my point. I got WORSE in a controlled environment, with mats, pads, headgear and professionals. If that is the extent of his phony injuries, there wasn't much of a brawl.

If I wrestled on concrete, there would be broken bones of the fatal kind you guys describe. This was a scuffle.

Call it Crazy says

leo707 says

People have successfully used stand your ground as a defense when having shot people in the back who were walking away.

But, to remind you once again... Stand Your Ground was NOT part of Zim's defense...

Correct, Stand Your Ground was not argued by Zimmerman's defense team.

This does not matter...

Stand Your Ground is part of Florida law, and the jury must take it into account when coming to a decision. In fact if one was to look at the jury instructions they would see that the Stand Your Ground law is included.

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/zimmerman-final-jury-instructions/
"If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."
-Zimmerman Trial: Jury Instructions

SoftShell says

What are "para metrics"??

Para-metrics are a CSI rapid response team. They parachute into a crime scene then measure and record all evidence before it degrades.

I hope this clears things up for you!

SoftShell says

Are you related to Roberto??

No, why? Does he know a lot about crime scene procedure as well?

lol

CL claims he gets worse than broken noses and gashes on his scalp practicing judo moves on a padded mat. Judo stands for the gentle way, maybe you and your training partners don't know what the heck you guys are doing. So yes that is dangerous when you have amateurs acting like idiots.

Correct.
And you get more internal cerebrum shock shots slamming ones head down on cement. Not too much visual damage on the outside, cerebral hemmorage resulting in death on the inside if repeated enough times.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

CL says

If I wrestled on concrete, there would be broken bones of the fatal kind you guys describe. This was a scuffle.

Right on. You get more blood just biting into someone's head or kicking their face.

Actually it clouds the issue even more, as there is not enough room for them to parachute to the scene, what with the buildings and accompanying power lines interfering with the projected landing path.

Kinda makes your assertion highly dubious....

leo707 says

SoftShell says

What are "para metrics"??

Para-metrics are a CSI rapid response team. They parachute into a crime scene then measure and record all evidence before it degrades.

I hope this clears things up for you!

Kinda like the unions driving us all into Obamacare, only to now line up to 'save us' after the fact...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/12/electrical-workers-union-jumps-aboard-anti-obamaca/

sounds like a
APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

There is no proof that Zimtard didn't drive this guy off the road before he 'saved' him.

Well, if he stalked Matin, Zimmy is in a heap of trouble....

https://www.facebook.com/matin.perlis

marcus says

Call it Crazy says

Also, calling someone an "asshole who always gets away" isn't legal grounds for getting the crap beat out of you...

No it just lends credence to the idea that Zimmerman stalked Matin thinking he was a bad guy

SoftShell says

Correct.

And you get more internal cerebrum shock shots slamming ones head down on cement. Not too much visual damage on the outside, cerebral hemmorage resulting in death on the inside if repeated enough times.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

CL says

If I wrestled on concrete, there would be broken bones of the fatal kind you guys describe. This was a scuffle.

Right on. You get more blood just biting into someone's head or kicking their face.

Again, the rightwingers prove that they will give anyone who kills a black citizen the benefit of the doubt.

There IS a presumption of innocence, but why doesn't a black victim get the same? Why would you blame the victim so often, yet exonerate the killer?

And I'll bet you did the same with Oscar Grant.

The bolded portion of your post contradicts itself.

The black victim did "get the same". A trial was held and a jury gave an impartial verdict.

CL says

Again, the rightwingers prove that they will give anyone who kills a black citizen the benefit of the doubt.

There IS a presumption of innocence, but why doesn't a black victim get the same? Why would you blame the victim so often, yet exonerate the killer?

The sad part is, the people who were pulled from the wreck wanted to publicly thank him, but feared a vile tongue lashing from Obama.
They worried he would sick the hoodie army on them.

leo707 says

Oh, another interesting side note to this is that if everyone who was at the
receiving end of an aggravated assault by "personal weapons" used that as a
justification to kill there would have been an additional 172,931 "justifiable"
homicides in 2011.

um, is it not possible that all violent attacks would reduce a whole bunch if the results were more dead attackers and less dead victims? In my world that is why every able bodied adult should carry a loaded firearm at all times in public, have one in the truck too, and serveral at the house. Then, "aggrivated assulters" might get the hint. Maybe.

Even the TM, GZ issue would have went differently. If both men knew there was a very good chance that they were both armed, then there would have been a much more respectful interaction. As it went down, TM was counting on GZ not being able to defend the attack (an attack promped by fill-in-blank). GZ was not "wanting" to use his weapon for defense, he was "willing" to use his weapon for defense.

SoftShell says

The black victim did "get the same". A trial was held and a jury gave an impartial verdict.

What are you talking about?

CL says

There IS a presumption of innocence, but why doesn't a black victim get the same? Why would you blame the victim so often, yet exonerate the killer?

Yes, this has been my big issue with the one-sided assumptions about Trayvon Martin. Some seem to want to paint his as a vicious street thug waiting for an opportunity to kill. But, alas, Trayvon will never have his chance to be found "not guilty", due to lack of evidence and crappy Florida State law.

Yes, there were those on the jury that felt Zimmerman is guilty of murder, but due to the law and lack of evidence were unable to come back with a guilty verdict.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/Juror-says-she-owes-Martin-s-parents-apology-4686881.php

"[Juror B29] feels George Zimmerman got away with murder for fatally shooting Trayvon Martin, but that there wasn't enough evidence at trial to convict him under Florida law.
* * * * *
'I was the juror that was going to give them a hung jury,' she said. 'I fought to the end.'

But by the second day of deliberating, [Juror B29] realized there wasn't enough proof to convict the 29-year-old neighborhood watch volunteer of a crime.

'George Zimmerman got away with murder, but you can't get away from God,' [Juror B29] said. 'And at the end of the day, he's going to have a lot of questions and answers he has to deal with.'"

Yes, the system "worked", even if we are "pretty sure" that someone is guilty they have to be cut loose. Unfortunately, it often takes money in-order to plant enough doubt in a jury and many people are convicted with far less evidence that was stacked against Zimmerman.

CL implies in

quote#1: that rightwingers gave zimmerman the benefit of the doubt because he shot a black person.

quote#2: that the accused has "a presumption of innocence".

If the accused has the presumption of innocence by Joe Public, how is that further distilled down to quote#1? Joe Public gives zimmerman the benefit of the doubt, not just the 'rightwingers', because that is the law. Innocent until proven guilty.

As far as "why doesn't the black victim get the same?", Joe Public never accused Trayvon Martin of anything. I don't see the connection.

CL says

Again, the rightwingers prove that they will give anyone who kills a black citizen the benefit of the doubt.

CL says

There IS a presumption of innocence, but why doesn't a black victim get the same?

I'm not so sure about that.
Given the uproar after the trial, I think some jurors may feel intimidated and in fear of physical harm, and may not be admitting their true feelings about the innocence of George.

leo707 says

Yes, there were those on the jury that felt Zimmerman is guilty of murder, but due to the law and lack of evidence were unable to come back with a guilty verdict.

leo707 says

Yes, there were those on the jury that felt Zimmerman is guilty of murder, but due to the law and lack of evidence were unable to come back with a guilty verdict.

Far too many comments on news websites about this trial from people with African sounding names or Africans in their avatars show that blacks have horrible logic and reasoning skills. This juror is no exception.

She knows her identity would get out eventually and is doing damage control with the black community to try to show that she's not at fault, hoping their spare her.

She "knows" GZ is guilty, yet there's wasn't enough evidence to convict is doubletalk and shows her mind was already made up before the start of the trial.

SoftShell says

I'm not so sure about that.

I am, juror B29 said so in an interview...

leo707 says

[Juror B29] feels George Zimmerman got away with murder for fatally shooting Trayvon Martin

...However...

leo707 says

but that there wasn't enough evidence at trial to convict him under Florida law.

SoftShell says

Given the uproar after the trial, I think some jurors may feel intimidated and in fear of physical harm, and may not be admitting their true feelings about the innocence of George.

Even juror B37 (the first juror to be interviewed), said someone wanted a 2nd degree murder conviction initially. And, that was when B37 was planning on writing a book about the trial. I do think that the book idea was axed after she realized the degree of uproar. (you also know that after her statement that the other jurors made it clear that B37 did not speak for them, right?)

But, please feel free to ignore anything you need to in order to maintain your preconceived notions about Zimmerman, Trayvon and the US justice system. We certainly would not want new data to adjust your views.

SoftShell says

Given the uproar after the trial, I think some jurors may feel intimidated and in fear of physical harm, and may not be admitting their true feelings about the innocence of George.

leo707 says

SoftShell says

I'm not so sure about that.

I am, juror B29 said so in an interview...

SoftShell says

Actually it clouds the issue even more, as there is not enough room for them to parachute to the scene, what with the buildings and accompanying power lines interfering with the projected landing path.

Kinda makes your assertion highly dubious....

leo707 says

SoftShell says

What are "para metrics"??

Para-metrics are a CSI rapid response team. They parachute into a crime scene then measure and record all evidence before it degrades.

I hope this clears things up for you!

Sorry! I can't maintain this ruse, the guilt is eating me alive!

It was a typo I meant to say "paramedics."

I hope you can forgive my deception...

Not ignoring it.
But the intimidation factor remains.
Would you want a whole race of people mad at you because you thought the guy was innocent?
It's no skin off her ass to tell the mob what they want to hear now...

leo707 says

But, please feel free to ignore anything you need to in order to maintain your preconceived notions about Zimmerman, Trayvon and the US justice system. We certainly would not want new data to adjust your views

I know...I know.
It's Roberta's fault for turning me into a nit-picking punctuation prick.

leo707 says

Sorry! I can't maintain this ruse, the guilt is eating me alive!

It was a typo I meant to say "paramedics."

I hope you can forgive my deception...

Something for people to chew on:

She said she doubted that the case should have been brought to trial, calling it a “publicity stunt.” But once it was, she said, the lack of evidence and Florida law left the jury no choice but to acquit.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-juror-b29-20130725,0,3330582.story

I don't understand this woman. She thinks he got away with murder, but the case shouldn't have been brought to trial, and it was a publicity stunt...

SoftShell says

Not ignoring it.

But the intimidation factor remains.

Would you want a whole race of people mad at you because you thought the guy was innocent?

It's no skin off her ass to tell the mob what they want to hear now...

I think that makes the most sense. To me, the truth is that she didn't think it should have even gone to trial (although I disagree with her on that point). To cover her butt, she said what she felt people wanted to hear.

SoftShell says

Not ignoring it.

But the intimidation factor remains.

Would you want a whole race of people mad at you because you thought the guy was innocent?

It's no skin off her ass to tell the mob what they want to hear now...

I would believe this to be the case if her story was not already consistent with what was said by Juror B37, who at the time of here interview did not realize all the implications of the ruling.

Hey, and that is the way it should be. A jury should make decisions regardless of what the mob wants and feels.

I don't think that justice was served by the verdict, but that said if I was sitting on the Jury I may have come to the same conclusion. If there is a law on the books that allows for people to kill others by shooting them in the back as they walk away, or frees gang members after a kill because it can not be determined who shot first then as a juror your hands are tied. If I had realized what people get away with under Stand Your Ground laws, I would have put much a higher chance that Zim would get acquitted.

Ideally the law dispenses justice most of the time, but there will always be judgements where justice is not served. Well, until our robot overlords come to power...

require video cameras on all guns. they are small enough now to not interfere with the shooting process.
you would have to put your pistol in it's charger at night, just like a phone.
and the camera starts automatically whenever it comes out of the holster..
Just think of the upgrade market!

leo707 says

Well, until our robot overlords come to power...

If Martin was overpowering Zimmerman, and Martin knew that Zimmerman had a gun.

How did Martin get shot through the heart?