patrick.net

Unions and their thug bosses can pat themselves on the back, their plan to enrich themselves by sucking the blood out of the state is working.

Spending Opacity and Raise Those Taxes! Way to go, Guv Giveaway Moonbeam!

Just need those "see no evil" and "look the other way" Controllers and it is all sweet.

/?p=1223184

Ceffer says

Spending Opacity and Raise Those Taxes! Way to go, Guv Giveaway Moonbeam!

Just need those "see no evil" and "look the other way" Controllers and it is all sweet.

That's why the upcoming LA Mayor election worries me so much. We have some union label there.

http://patrick.net/?p=1223189

main problem with CA is not only Union thugs but the invasion of the people from south the border. they don't pay any tax and breed like rabbits. maybe the rich businessmen get dirt cheap labor but the working man pick up the tab. the taxes are so high because everyone who works has to pay for social services for these people.

No no no.

California will not fall to mere financial shenanigans, that is FAR too ordinary for this state.

A nuclear device slamming into the San Andreas fault, now that's more like it.

Hmmm, that WOULD take care of the Alameda and Stockton pension problems, the Oakland school district, the fortress... I like it!

State Auditor - California net worth at negative $127 Billion
http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlatest/2013/03/state-auditor-california-net-worth-at-negative-127-billion.html

It's even worse because they don't include the State's massive pension and healthcare liabilities in this report. If they include those, the report claims it would push the negative liability down several hundred billion dollars more.

Just amazes me how the national conversation always seems to be on "important stuff" like gay marriage and abortion, while Liberals seem to get off scott-free for the ruin they created in California and other failed Blue Model states that have the same ponzi scheme finances.

Countries in the EU are imploding for having just a fraction of the liabilities that California has.

KarlRoveIsScum says

SCOTUS Makes It Official: California A Failed State

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2011/05/27/scotus-makes-it-official-california-a-failed-state/

"Let there be no mistake: when you produce so many criminals that you can’t afford to lock them up, you are a failed state. "

Piffle. When you have a fucked up economy, and the voters fall for your "tough-on-crime" rhetoric, and you have a savvy prison guard union that feeds off the Prison-Industrial Complex, you have a problem.

Having more people in prison, as we did, than any COUNTRY on earth (except China) is not a sustainable plan.

Mark D says

main problem with CA is not only Union thugs but the invasion of the people from south the border. they don't pay any tax and breed like rabbits. maybe the rich businessmen get dirt cheap labor but the working man pick up the tab. the taxes are so high because everyone who works has to pay for social services for these people.

Those people work hard, most of them do anyway. Unions on the other hand cost an arm and a leg, especially since they bought the governor a while ago (Davis) and got retroactive pension increases running the state into bankruptcy.

I do agree that some of them are welfare cases.

CL says

Having more people in prison, as we did, than any COUNTRY on earth (except China) is not a sustainable plan.

In terms of prison populations China is a somewhat distant second to the US.
http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poptotal

Per. capita China's prison rates are actually pretty low (of course the US tops the list there as well).
http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poprate

leo707 says

In terms of prison populations China is a somewhat distant second to the US.

http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poptotal

Yeah, but I was comparing California, the State, to other Nations. That makes it even more of a ridiculous complaint..."if you can't lock up your criminals, you've failed!".

Could be you just have too many goddamned prisoners, eh?

Then, some have the temerity to complain about the prisoners?

Wasn't the latest idea to make the local Governments house their own prisoners, and bear some of the burden of the police state they seemed to want?

What did that do to the State's finances?

FortWayne says

Unions on the other hand cost an arm and a leg, especially since they bought the governor a while ago (Davis) and got retroactive pension increases running the state into bankruptcy.

Yes ! Power to the plutocracy !! End all unions !! Reduce all pay for all working Americans. Ghetto slums for all !! Race to the bottom for economic well being of the the 99% !! Here here !!!

marcus says

Yes ! Power to the plutocracy !! End all unions !! Reduce all pay for all
working Americans. Ghetto slums for all !! Race to the bottom for economic well
being of the the 99% !! Here here !!!

Many of these government workers with fat pensions are the new plutocrats.

The "victims" are the poor people living in Cities like Stockton and San Bernardino seeing their services cut, taxes raised, and crime increasing while the unions don't have to give up a penny of their pensions.

Seriously - do you think the government workers in Stockton (or any bankrupt city) should not have to make any sacrifices or reforms to their pensions while the City cuts everything else?

socal2 says

Seriously - do you think the government workers in Stockton (or any bankrupt city) should not have to make any sacrifices or reforms to their pensions while the City cuts everything else?

If they negotiated contracts in the past, lived up to their end of the deal, and the Municipality agreed to the terms then why should they give up even more?

If a retirement package was part of their compensation, why should it be subject to future poor management?

If they had known it was not real, perhaps they would have used their talents elsewhere. If medical care for Firefighters gets too expensive, can we just stop paying for it? I would assume they knew they might destroy their bodies prior to employment, but that might have been offset by benefits and long-term disability.

CL says

If they negotiated contracts in the past, lived up to their end of the deal,
and the Municipality agreed to the terms then why should they give up even
more?

If a retirement package was part of their compensation, why should it be
subject to future poor management?

Bond holders and creditors also negotiated contracts in the past, lived up to their end of the deal, and agreed to certain terms. Tax payers also agreed to pay taxes and not have their city fall apart and services cut. But now they are all going to get shafted because REALITY has intervened and the city is out of money.

Stockton's biggest liability is their $900 million they owe for pensions.

I just wonder why government union workers have no skin in the game while EVERYONE ELSE is expected to sacrifice with bankruptcy?

Orange County bankruptcy 1994, amounted to 3 billion in today's dollars.

Stockton is only "record-setting" for people with ADHD.

Somehow, these things are never the disaster that is claimed.

Vicente says

Orange County bankruptcy 1994, amounted to 3 billion in today's dollars.

Stockton is only "record-setting" for people with ADHD.

Somehow, these things are never the disaster that is claimed.

Apples and oranges.

Stockton (and San Bernardino) are not bankrupt because one guy was making bad investment bets like the case in Orange County. These cities are bankrupt because they were mismanaged from top to bottom and lots of government employees think they are still going to get their massive pensions paid out, while the Cities cut everything else. These cities are STRUCTURALLY broken and in some cases corrupt.

Speaking of disasters, cities like San Bernardino are already a disaster with rising crime rates where even the City Attorney is telling people to lock their doors and get a gun.
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/11/30/city-attorney-tells-san-bernardino-residents-to-lock-their-doors-load-their-guns-because-of-police-downsizing/

Nor do I see a future dot.com or housing bubble in the works in California to provide new revenue like Orange County received by going bankrupt in the mid-90's.

FortWayne says

Unions and their thug bosses can pat themselves on the back, their plan to enrich themselves by sucking the blood out of the state is working.

Yes, because their real plan is to take all the money, put us all on welfare, then raise taxes on themselves so we can live on easy-street. Fucking genius!

rooemoore says

Yes, because their real plan is to take all the money, put us all on welfare,
then raise taxes on themselves so we can live on easy-street. Fucking
genius!

What is their "real plan"?

Any government worker with 4th grade math skills should know that the pension liabilities are unpayable and the main reason for cities like Stockton and San Bernardino going broke.

Wouldn't a smarter plan be for the public sector unions to renegotiate and reform their pension systems to keep their employers from going through bankruptcy in teh first place?

Or do you think the unions are holding out thinking they will get to keep all of their benefits while everyone else feels the pain and sacrifices for them?

marcus says

FortWayne says

Unions on the other hand cost an arm and a leg, especially since they bought the governor a while ago (Davis) and got retroactive pension increases running the state into bankruptcy.

Yes ! Power to the plutocracy !! End all unions !! Reduce all pay for all working Americans. Ghetto slums for all !! Race to the bottom for economic well being of the the 99% !! Here here !!!

If unions suck up all the money, than all we will have the Ghetto slums for everyone else. It's happening now.

Counties and cities are running out of money having to pay back inflated Gray Davis pensions and CALPERS guarantees. And we can't even fix our roads anymore with whats left. Non unionized Americas are getting a little tired of supporting the unionized minority that has more wants than society can afford to provide for them.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

In the end, California will end up under burning rubble when the prison unions take delivery of dirty nukes, home-brewed by Wahabinist operatives and dropped by police helicopters into resistance strongholds like Stockton.

The perfect time to buy!

socal2 says

Seriously - do you think the government workers in Stockton (or any bankrupt
city) should not have to make any sacrifices or reforms to their pensions while
the City cuts everything else?

You seriously expect someone to cut their own pay and benefits?? They will probably throw all their residents in jail and seize their assets before they vote for benefits cuts-or maybe fire a bunch of low level employees. But those city managers that make 100s of thousands-nope.

Schools got more funding after the last election and what does lausd do??? Spends 50 million on giving every kid a new ipad instead of hiring back qualified Teachers. I don't understand that rational, but it just sounds wrong.

Are pensions the problem or the crooks on wall street that manipulated the system and destroyed city and state investments all across america that were suppossed to sustain these pensions, etc...

socal2 says

Bond holders and creditors also negotiated contracts in the past, lived up to their end of the deal, and agreed to certain terms.

Do you think that investing money is the same as wages and pensions? The investors always assumed some risk. If I invest in Greek bonds, I'd expect a rate of return commensurate with my risk, but I'd also know that it might not be a good investment.

I think when a person devotes their lives to an occupation, it's a bit more sacrosanct and shouldn't be trifled with.

Of course, we'll always find someone that seems to be profiting from their past Government employment. I bet most public servants don't get much, and really just don't want to be skinned alive.

socal2 says

Many of these government workers with fat pensions are the new plutocrats.

I have a problem with govt pensions much over 100K even if the people made much more in their job, unless their contributions to their pension fund (right out of their check) was plenty high.

But citing a small number of people at the top with obscene salaries and pensions, is a really stupid reason to condemn 98% of govt workers who pay in their whole life to get an average of 50K a year (or whatever it is) for life.

The pension boogey man is just like all the others. Overstated and misunderstood.

I'm for pension reform. And what some cities have done with their spending is criminal. As for the question, of how mcuh should those who paid into their pension for 30 or 40 year be fucked over ? I don't know the answer to that.

Remember, these people didn't pay in to social security, they paid into a pension fund instead.

Here's my guess at the answer to your question. . A pension fund should be treated separately from the overall city's finances if and when the city declares bankruptcy. But depending on how severely underfunded the pension fund is, I don't know the answer.

FortWayne says

Non unionized Americas are getting a little tired of supporting the unionized minority that has more wants than society can afford to provide for them.

I'm sorry, but you really are thick, and so fricking gullible.

Why do you have this need to overstate the problem. Have you no sense of nuance ? Are shades of grey just not part of your visual spectrum.

There are problems with pensions, and reforms are occurring. And they will continue. But for the most part, your understanding of pensions is even worse than your trumped up hate radio understanding of unions.

Usually the worker pays about 8% of their salary in to the pension fund and the local govt and or state matches that. That 8% shows up as a deduction from their stated salary, just as social security shows up on most peoples checks as a deduction.

This is just like (and in place of) social security. Yes, it's a little bit better, and it's also part of what the person signed up for when they took that job, forgoing other options for what they do with their work life. It's not some unfair 'wants' that the government worker is extracting from taxpayers.

What the hell man !? Can you really be as much of buffoon as you portray yourself to be ?

I don't know why I respond. It's not like you are capable of learning anything.

socal2 says

These cities are bankrupt because they were mismanaged from top to bottom and lots of government employees think they are still going to get their massive pensions paid out, while the Cities cut everything else.

No, they are bankrupt because they ASSUMED the housing and economic boom would continue forever. You don't mention the downtown redevelopment among other things. I can't blame them, bubble thinkers never imagine the downturn. Patrick.net was a lonesome ridiculed place once upon a time.

CL says

Having more people in prison, as we did, than any COUNTRY on earth (except China) is not a sustainable plan.

convicted by a jury made up of impartial citizens. so what! you have a bunch of
gangsters, thugs, criminals locked up.. thats where they belong ! some frankly
need to be executed...

and how many in prison belong to some organized crime
organization... lots ! there are no angels in prison today.

marcus says

Usually the worker pays about 8% of their salary in to the pension fund and the local govt and or state matches that. That 8% shows up as a deduction from their stated salary, just as social security shows up on most peoples checks as a deduction.

defined pension plans ring a bell? DPP had a 10% or more required investment return to reach the required accumulated retirement balance. since returns have been much lower over the past several years and may stretch into decades..it will be the individual taxpayer and private industries that will pick up the bill. we are not talking about some 401K plan here.

socal2 says

Stockton (and San Bernardino) are not bankrupt because one guy was making bad investment bets like the case in Orange County.

Orange County went belly up because of the RE crash back in early 90s.

so as Property Tax went south so did Revenue and the Bond Payment couldnt
be made to the bondholder...

What was the CA budget before the stock bubble and housing bubble which were going to provide revenues from capital gains and property taxes .. and what is CA budget today..

Big difference due to long term project and labor contracts govt got itself into ...

thomaswong.1986 says

defined pension plans ring a bell? DPP

Yes. Much like social security, which also has unfunded liabilities, but it isn't managed as a pension fund. In fact it isn't even a fund in such a real sense, the government already spent ALL OF IT, issuing IOUs (bonds) for what is theoretically in the fund. And you're getting all upset about funds that are actually funded, but not quite as well funded as they should be, while reforms meanwhile are underway.

I'm not arguing that the reforms aren't necessary. Just that some of you right wingers sure are quick to be willing to fuck over the little guy every chance you get.

marcus says

I'm not arguing that the reforms aren't necessary. Just that some of you right wingers sure are quick to be willing to fuck over the little guy every chance you get.

would it not be better to put it into the little guys hands, how would that fuck them over?

thomaswong.1986 says

how would that fuck them over?

The powers that be, that are behind all of your "news" and infotainment sources have several agendas. One of them is to tear down so much of the progress made in this country "for the little guy" back in the 1930s - 1950s.

Unions and pensions are just a part of very decent pay for govt workers. THe Koch brothers and other plutocrats behind todays far right wing, want to tear the last shreds of this down.

When even govt workers aren't paid decently anymore, it allows for ratcheting all workers pay down another level. IT's not that the plutocrats have hurting the little guy as a direct goal. But hey, if that's what makes them more profits, then so be it.

They'll give a little to charity, and feel quite fine with themselves.

But this is a "democracy" so owning a lot of politicians isn't enough to get thier way, fucking over the little guy. They work the right wing media real hard too, to convince enough idiots and pitting them against their own interests, to make destroying the country politically doable.

OF course they don't think they are destroying it. They think they're making it plutocrat heaven. Cheap slave labor is the goal.

I know, you want to be a plutocrat when you grow up, so you think we should just shut up and be happy with the scraps they throw us.

^^They're not satisfied with being millionaires in a country with a middle-class, they want to be billionaires in a land of paupers.

Vicente says

socal2
says

These cities are bankrupt because they were mismanaged from top to bottom and
lots of government employees think they are still going to get their massive
pensions paid out, while the Cities cut everything else.

No, they are bankrupt because they ASSUMED the housing and economic boom
would continue forever. You don't mention the downtown redevelopment among other
things. I can't blame them, bubble thinkers never imagine the downturn.
Patrick.net was a lonesome ridiculed place once upon a time.

I call that mismanagement.

I didn't need to find Patrick.net to understand we were in an unsustainable housing bubble. These people are not victims.

Even if we managed to live in non-stop boom times, it is not clear these cities could ever meet their pension and healthcare promises. FFS - Stockton guaranteed free healthcare for life for their employees and families even if they just worked for one month! This is madness......regardless if we are in a boom cycle or not.

marcus says

But citing a small number of people at the top with obscene salaries and
pensions, is a really stupid reason to condemn 98% of govt workers who pay in
their whole life to get an average of 50K a year (or whatever it is) for life.

The pension boogey man is just like all the others. Overstated and
misunderstood.

I'm for pension reform. And what some cities have done with their spending is
criminal. As for the question, of how mcuh should those who paid into their
pension for 30 or 40 year be fucked over ? I don't know the answer to that.

Remember, these people didn't pay in to social security, they paid into a
pension fund instead.

Here's my guess at the answer to your question. . A pension fund should be
treated separately from the overall city's finances if and when the city
declares bankruptcy. But depending on how severely underfunded the pension fund
is, I don't know the answer.

There are so many more abuses than just the $100K pensions. Even a pension paying $50K FOR LIFE is too generous IMO. Anecdotal only, but my neighbor across the street retired as a fireman in his early 50's lives in a big house with an ocean view and spends half the year on his sail-boat in South America. The guy is a young and healthy dude and will live a long time on $150K/year pension.

Giving city workers and their families free healthcare FOR LIFE is insane.

Letting government workers retire with full pensions in their mid-50's is crazy.

Letting government workers spike their last year of pay with unused "sick days" and vacation days to peg their future pension payout is nuts.

Letting cities go bankrupt, shafting creditors, raising taxes, slashing city services letting crime rise while they preserve their precious pension plans is criminal.

There is so much reform needed in California's pension program that it just boggles my mind how anyone can claim otherwise when we have a whole string of large cities lining up for bankruptcy with massive pension liabilities.

I realize that come cities are already trying to reform the pension system for new hires. But the damage is already done for those already retired or soon to be retired. Those pensions will need to be renegotiated as well if those cities have a prayer of digging out.

SFace says

Contract is contract, there is little you can do to what is agreed to short of
bankrucpcy.

Well - we have bankruptcies occuring.

The next phase in the Stockton bankruptcy process will be to negotiate a payment schedule for all of their creditors. I guarantee you that bond holders and other creditors are going to have their contracts broken and have to accept losses on their investments.

Government workers with pensions should not be immune to broken contracts when everyone else is taking a hit and the city has hit rock bottom with bankruptcy.