patrick.net

finehoe says

^^They're not satisfied with being millionaires in a country with a middle-class, they want to be billionaires in a land of paupers.

+1

thomaswong.1986 says

convicted by a jury made up of impartial citizens. so what! you have a bunch of

gangsters, thugs, criminals locked up.. thats where they belong ! some frankly

need to be executed...

Sure, and the end of judicial discretion, mandatory minimums and "3 strikes" laws. Then the public is shocked, SHOCKED that we have the world's largest prison population!

That's fine. If you want to lock up petty crooks and people smoking pot, but then live with your massive budgetary burdens. It's your mess, not mine.

Noboby touched on the real problem with pensions. Deregulation by politicians, banks robo signing bunk mortages to unqualified losers, accounting abuses by huge corporations that millions of people invested in, along with numerous other thefts, etc... Doesn't this matter? Isn't this the real problem? Aren't the people behind these schemes the ones responsible, should be prosecuted, and responsible for paying back the trillons they stole? Wait let me guess, it's your local fireman's problems, the local Teacher who taught your kids to read, and the cops who did their best to prevent crime. Scape-goating the pension recipients is just disgusting

socal2 says

There is so much reform needed in California's pension program that it just boggles my mind how anyone can claim otherwise

What I would claim is simply that you exaggerate and generalize to over state the case.

Safety workers do get higher pensions, because of the risk. A fireman is asked to run in to extremely life threatening situations to save others. So they get a bigger pension (and sooner).

As for pension spiking, calpers and calstrs don't do what you say with vacation days and sick days, although they do let them tack those on to the length of time that they worked. Say somebody worked 36 years, but they had 1/3 of a year in unused vation days and sick days. That can be added on to their service lenth making their term of servie 36 1/3 year. Increasing their pennsion by less than 1%.

That's fair. IF you don't see it, what do you want them to do, take their paid time off, and then work a day, and then collect based on 36 1/3 years ?

But I think there is a different way that pensions are sometimes spiked as you say, in the most corrupt city governments, abused by a small number of administrators in a corrupt city's plan.

And there is a pension spiking in calper and calstrs, where someone gets a better higher paying job for the last couple years. I find that unethical, if its just for the pension, and that is being changed.

Again, I'm in agreement, but to say that a 50K pension is too much, for someone who did in for 40 years to their 50K job. That's just either envy, old age crankiness, or possibly outright stupidity. It's a form of compensation. And if you have the math skills to back it out, you'll see it's basically like getting paid maybe an extra 5K per year on top of the 8% he paid in and the 8% the state or whomever matched.

Using that formulation and assuming a return of 4% (which is not exsessive for the stock market long term, it would grow in 40 year to $1.3 million which could then be annuitized for 30 years again at 4% would to be 77000 per year.

That's assuming a cost to the employer (say the state) of close to what all employers pay in to social security, plus another 10%.

Except that made the guys pension $77000/year.

So really this extravagent pension that you have so much misplaced emotion about is closer to a perk that's maybe a 7 percent annual bonus to their salary. But lets say 10%, to account for the lower salary earlier in their career.

And it's what they signed up for, and you could have too !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow. What a travesty !!

Take it away. Take it all away. "Cause I'm a sad little envious man."

FortWayne says

If unions suck up all the money, than all we will have the Ghetto slums for everyone else. It's happening now.

MAybe your real name is Koch ?

So it's the unions that are causing the wealth disparity?

By your logic, somehow if workers pay decreases, that raises the middle class.

YOu couldn't possibly be that stupid.

MAybe you will say that lowering the pay of all government workers has no effect on the pay levels of any other jobs ?

Really ? It's a job market. A perfect storm for the plutocrats to lower all pay, is high unemployment (caused by their own folly) combined with dismantling public worker unions.

Why do I even try ?....

Interesting graph BBill posted the other day. Taxes as a % of GDP. It doesn't support your view at all.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=h5k

Quite simply, more taxes should be paid. Everyone with an ounce of intelligence knows this. Read David Stockman.

leo707 says

In terms of prison populations China is a somewhat distant second to the US.

http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poptotal

Per. capita China's prison rates are actually pretty low (of course the US tops the list there as well).

http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poprate

Presumably this is because executing lots of criminals helps keep the prison population low.

CL says

Sure, and the end of judicial discretion, mandatory minimums and "3 strikes" laws. Then the public is shocked, SHOCKED that we have the world's largest prison population!

That's fine. If you want to lock up petty crooks and people smoking pot, but then live with your massive budgetary burdens. It's your mess, not mine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_population
ww.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/gangs/gangs

Laughable... what we have is criminals who are members of criminal organizations dealing in narcotics, prostitution, theft, murder, fraud extortion.

They dont care.. they will kill anyone!

There are currently 1-1.5M criminals out there on the street... others have ties to international gangs in Latin America and Asia.

There are currently 2M in prison.. 5M on probation/supervision. whats your point !

like Oakland, its your problem and your failure as a community.

thomaswong.1986 says

There are currently 1-1.5M criminals out there on the street... others have ties to international gangs in Latin America and Asia.

There are currently 2M in prison.. 5M on probation/supervision. whats your point !

http://www.bop.gov/news/quick.jsp

Yet, the vast majority of people in Federal prisons are in for drug offenses:

Types of Offenses
Drug Offenses: 90,097 (47.4 %)
Weapons, Explosives, Arson: 30,655 (16.1 %)
Immigration: 22,530 (11.9 %)
Robbery: 7,931 (4.2 %)
Burglary, Larceny, Property Offenses: 7,531 (4.0 %)
Extortion, Fraud, Bribery: 10,864 (5.7 %)
Homicide, Aggravated Assault, and Kidnapping Offenses: 5,655 (3.0 %)
Miscellaneous: 1,569 (0.8 %)
Sex Offenses: 11,283 (5.9 %)
Banking and Insurance, Counterfeit, Embezzlement: 818 (0.4 %)
Courts or Corrections: 615 (0.3 %)
Continuing Criminal Enterprise: 496 (0.3 %)
National Security: 81 (0.0 %)

We have 5% of the world's population but 1/4 of the world's inmates. That sounds reasonable to you?

The incarceration rate has increased 12x since the 80s for drug offenses.

Our "success" in the prison industry is not proof of a failed state, but a failed prison-for-profit scheme, and a byproduct of American greed and racism.

Are we no longer the 8th largest economy in the world? Did the grapes in Napa Valley dry up? Is Humboldt no longer producing the best weed in the US? Did all our farmlands get transported to another state? Did Silicon Valley experience an eternal DDOS attack?

NuttBoxer says

Are we no longer the 8th largest economy in the world?

Get on the bandwagon man.

This the CALIFORNIA-HATER MAD MAX thread. Everything must be worst-cased to ridiculous extremes.

marcus says

socal2
says

There is so much reform needed in California's pension program that it just
boggles my mind how anyone can claim otherwise

What I would claim is simply that you exaggerate and generalize to over state
the case.

It is not an exaggeration. It is a simple fact.

Stockton's biggest liability is the $900 million they owe CALPERS.

Seriously dude - do you REALLY think pension reform should not be part of the bankruptcy proceedings for cities like Stockton?

marcus says

I have a problem with govt pensions much over 100K even if the people made much more in their job, unless their contributions to their pension fund (right out of their check) was plenty high.

I personally have a problem with CALPERS gambling with the money on wall street in risky (and shady) wall street ventures and requiring me to pay for their losses. And on top of that, not disclosure so we just have to pay and hold no one accountable.

That is my problem with the unions.

marcus says

Quite simply, more taxes should be paid. Everyone with an ounce of
intelligence knows this. Read David Stockman.

California already has the highest combined State/Federal taxes for high earners in the country. We just raised taxes on ourselves a few months ago.

Are you saying that we need to tax all those poor hispanics in Stockton even more to keep the politically connected class of government bureaucrats living large with gold plated pensions for the rest of their lives?

Long past time for California unions to share in the sacrifice instead of burning their employers down to the ground.

FortWayne says

personally have a problem with CALPERS gambling with the money on wall
street in risky (and shady) wall street ventures and requiring me to pay for
their losses. And on top of that, not disclosure so we just have to pay and hold
no one accountable.

That is my problem with the unions.

These cities are desperate for risky high return investments - otherwise they don't have a prayer of meeting their pension promises.

One would think that issue alone would wise people up to this corrupt Ponzi Scheme.

It's criminal that cities have to raid infrastructure funds or raise taxes each year to prop up their underperforming pensions when CALPERS doesn't get their 7.5% return.

FortWayne says

I personally have a problem with CALPERS gambling with the money on wall street in risky (and shady) wall street ventures and requiring me to pay for their losses

I have a problem with JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs getting bailed out when they crashed the economy. A much MUCH LAAARGERRR sum. What did we do about that? Oh right, we bailed them out.

Vicente says

I have a problem with JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs getting bailed out when
they crashed the economy. A much MUCH LAAARGERRR sum. What did we do about that?
Oh right, we bailed them out.

I think most libertarian and conservative minded folks were against that too. Especially now as we have more information beyond the initial panic days of late 2008.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Besides, these cities and CALPERS were only too happy to invest in risky real estate funds when the market was hot. They were insane to think that the increase in tax revenues during the bubble years were the new norm allowing them to expand pension benefits as Stockton and San Bernardino did in the mid 90's.

CL says

The incarceration rate has increased 12x since the 80s for drug offenses.

Yes... trafficking of narcotics.. why is this such a big surprise to anyone.

why do you think so many Mexican cartels are shooting up the border towns...

we are talking about 100 of billions of drugs inflows...

shit Pablo Escobar was worth 20-25 Billion alone..

what we see in our prison are the dealers and smugglers... Good keep them there!

socal2 says

They were insane to think that the increase in tax revenues during the bubble years were the new norm allowing them to expand pension benefits as Stockton and San Bernardino did in the mid 90's.

so true... are the people at Calpers who made those same mistakes still making the same investment decisions. do they still think RE is the way to go ?

Observe:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2010/01/money-cocalpers-loses-500-million-on-new-york-apartment-deal.html

socal2 says

These cities are desperate for risky high return investments - otherwise they don't have a prayer of meeting their pension promises.

Aren't they also required to invest in AAA rated securities? Like, the MBS mess?thomaswong.1986 says

what we see in our prison are the dealers and smugglers... Good keep them there!

So, America has the highest incarceration rate because? We have the largest drug smuggling operation in the world here?

What are you trying to say?

CL says

So, America has the highest incarceration rate because? We have the largest drug smuggling operation in the world here?

What are you trying to say?

perhaps if everyone went cold turkey for say 12 months..
all the drug cartels would go belly up in South America.

U.S. Leads The World In Illegal Drug Use
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500368_162-4222322.html

http://www.youtube.com/embed/OS7-HuXaREE

the other 1% ....

thomaswong.1986 says

Criminal - but Alameda can always declare bankruptcy if necessary ;)

thomaswong.1986 says

CL says

Having more people in prison, as we did, than any COUNTRY on earth (except China) is not a sustainable plan.

convicted by a jury made up of impartial citizens. so what! you have a bunch of

gangsters, thugs, criminals locked up.. thats where they belong ! some frankly

need to be executed...

and how many in prison belong to some organized crime

organization... lots ! there are no angels in prison today.

Thomas, you completely lost on this subject.
The true, criminals are CREATION of our society! Do you think some newborns have in DNA code imprinted “FUTURE CRIMINAL”???
Stress, lack of employment, broken families, money, greed, wars, and unstable future, to name a few are main creators of criminals. Also those are reason of modern sickness, including mental. Many industries see rise in this field as vital statistics, e.g. lawyers, private prisons, pharmaceutical companies.

REpro says

Thomas, you completely lost on this subject.

no.. but we glamorize the "thug and drug" lifestyles.. they are the big push
in demand destroying neighborhoods and what could have been productive
members of society.

last time we did that was back in the late 60s and 70s... dreadful results!

A story just heard today a few hours ago:
A middle school youngster moved with his father (broken family) to San Jose from AZ a few weeks ago. Father got job transfer opportunity. One of first duties; he was asked to find an assistant. He did. Immediately after, the assistant took this position and father was fired. Capitalism-shit happens. Now Father is unemployed and looking for new job.
How much disappointment, anger, and fear the child can take. How he can concentrate on what should be the most important in his age – education? If father will not find a job, should he join a local gang to earn for living?

thomaswong.1986 says

but we glamorize the "thug and drug" lifestyles

It is not a lifestyle – it is a run-away from reality.

socal2 says

These cities are desperate for risky high return investments - otherwise they don't have a prayer of meeting their pension promises.

EVERYONE was and is desperate for risky high return investments.

What do you think FIRE people do? Promise you can't-lose get-rich schemes. They do it top to bottom, left to right, every which way. And every single one of them is "above average" at picking winners somehow.

Pensions were MORE likely to take on shit-sandwich deals because..... they had the most idiotic bottom feeders working in pension offices. Who you think gets to be CEO of state pension, the biggest whiz from Goldman Sachs? No, it's some washed up fraudster. And because pensions were the lowest rung, they felt more like they had to "keep up" at least a little with everyone else who they were hearing were earning OUTSTANDING returns year in and year out. Yeah "You hear about the Bernie Madoff guy?" he makes money no matter what, we have to COMPETE with that. So let's live just a LITTLE on the edge and buy a bunch of real estate cause that has NEVER gone down for long in our lifetimes it's a can't lose right?

The banksters who lost TRILLIONS those guys got a pat on the head and bonus. Not a single high-level fraudster saw the inside of a jail cell. Now everyone turns their rage onto pensions because we gotta SET AN EXAMPLE right? We FORGOT to clawback ill-gotten gains from fuckers who lost billions and trillions, now that teachers and firemen and whatnot are in our sights let's demand THEY roll over and play dead. Teabaggers were a miserable fucking failure at stopping the bailouts, or doing anything about it afterwards, like they forgot the milk on the way to the store. Now suddenly amnesia gone, going to make sure SOMEBODY takes it up the butt why not Joe Pension? Wall Street's favorite whipping boys the pensions and the unions, they'll be the scapegoats to direct everything on. Good work!

I say if you can't even remember to prosecute mass murderers, it's past time for everyone else to get a free pass. This vaunted ethical system of capitalism doesn't mean squat to anyone anyhow it's really just "I got mine don't care how, now screw you!" You know the Wall Streeters who said in recent years I GOT A CDO INSURED BY AIG SO PAY ME! YOU WANT ACCOMMODATION I GOT A CONTRACT PAY IT IN FULL MOFO! YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR HOUSE SO SORRY MY MBS CONTAINING YOUR HOUSE MUST BE REPAID SUCK IT UP BUTTERCUP AND WATCH US FORECLOSE! You see any of those guys feel accomodating and "reasonable" volunteering to take one for the good of the nation? NOOPE! So why should pensioners holding CONTRACTS feel any different about the matter? "It says right here in this legal document you WILL do so & so, so hop to!" Absolutely nothing during this financial collapse from the very TIPPY TOP examples says that SACRIFICING matters, in fact it would mark you as a RUBE, a mark, the biggest idiots who couldn't follow the example so clearly set in stone.

So you know, fuck it!

Here is a good read, if you have the inclination and time:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/cruel-and-unusual-punishment-the-shame-of-three-strikes-laws-20130327?link=mostpopular3

CL says

Here is a good read, if you have the inclination and time:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/cruel-and-unusual-punishment-the-shame-of-three-strikes-laws-20130327?link=mostpopular3

Prison guards union wanted to make more money, so they sponsored the law... prison system grew.

Vicente says

This vaunted ethical system of capitalism doesn't mean squat to anyone anyhow
it's really just "I got mine don't care how, now screw you!"

Isn't that EXACTLY the attitude that the public sector unions and government bureaucracy are taking as they let their cities sink in bankruptcy? Basically they are saying SCREW YOU - everyone but us needs to sacrifice for this mismanagement. Tax payers will pay more taxes for reduced services, bond holders will lose over half their investment - but we won't give up a thing.

The rest of your post is screaming past me. I didn't agree with the bank bailouts and have been very critical of President Goldman Sachs (i.e. Obama) over the last 5 years rewarding these guys.

But it is beside the point. These union pensions in California are unpayable under any normal economic condition. You just simply can't have DEFINED BENEFIT plans in the 21st century with our demographics and expect to stay in business.

FortWayne says

Prison guards union wanted to make more money, so they sponsored the law... prison system grew.

True, but you know they are equal opportunity bastards, openly supporting Republicans as they see fit?

But, of course you also have a compliant populace, voting for "tough-on-crime" policies when the rightwingers scapegoat minorities, a la Pete Wilson.

Despite their high pay, I haven't heard the state GOP recommend they get slashed like teachers, or attacked like other Unions.

socal2 says

I didn't agree with the bank bailouts and have been very critical of President Goldman Sachs (i.e. Obama)

You disagreed so much you didn't bother to see who Goldman really wanted to be President? Goldman must've thought Obama's generosity a bit lacking to support Romney by more than 5-1?

And Romney's top 5?

Goldman Sachs $1,033,204
Bank of America $1,013,402
Morgan Stanley $911,305
JPMorgan Chase & Co $834,096
Wells Fargo $677,076

Obama's top Donors?

University of California $1,212,245
Microsoft Corp $814,645
Google Inc $801,770
US Government $728,647
Harvard University $668,368
Kaiser Permanente $588,386
Stanford University $512,356

Maybe President "Higher Learning" is more apropos?

socal2 says

Basically they are saying SCREW YOU - everyone but us needs to sacrifice for this mismanagement.

Ah yes "YOU should sacrifice!". It's always someone else, isn't it?

What are YOU sacrificing for your economy?

Vicente says

socal2 says

Basically they are saying SCREW YOU - everyone but us needs to sacrifice for this mismanagement.

Ah yes "YOU should sacrifice!". It's always someone else, isn't it?

What are YOU sacrificing for your economy?

Isn't that the morality of our nation lately? Screw you as long as I got mine? It's a shame, because it is why our nation falls apart.

Vicente says

What are YOU sacrificing for your economy?

so says the Government worker ... oh thats rich!

CL says

You disagreed so much you didn't bother to see who Goldman really wanted to be President? Goldman must've thought Obama's generosity a bit lacking to support Romney by more than 5-1?

Damn, the major contributors to Romney were the big banks :-/

source: http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/

adarmiento says

Damn, the major contributors to Romney were the big banks :-/

many people who worked in business and understood Business/Industries were
behind Romney. the liberal schools administration and the crazy ass SW developers
were behind Obama. thats pretty much what you see.

frankly not many on Obamas side have a clue about how to create growth our economy.

CL says

You disagreed so much you didn't bother to see who Goldman really wanted to be President? Goldman must've thought Obama's generosity a bit lacking to support Romney by more than 5-1?

Goldman Sachs spreads it around. They were Obama's #2 contributor in 2008.
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638