patrick.net

thomaswong.1986 says

Good let them bleed... let all their victims take vengeance.

the world is a better place today....

Damn, that sounds exactly what Hitler said about the Jews.

I suppose it doesn't matter to you that the vast majority of those who suffered in Gitmo and other gulags were innocent.

thomaswong.1986 says

these terrorist have no humanity as they were killing men women and children.

And now that America has done exactly the same, do we have no humanity?

Seems like the exact same kind of unrestrained blood-lust and dehumanization of the enemy. Thank you for proving my point.

So Hillary was an afterthought in all of that..
Spoken like a true misogynist...

Dan8267 says

No person was ever harmed by Bill Clinton getting a blow job from that fat whore Lewinsky

SoftShell says

So Hillary was an afterthought in all of that..

Spoken like a true misogynist...

What a laugh. Like you have anything but the greatest animosity towards Hilary Clinton. Hey, how about you vote for her when she runs in 2016.

Oh, and Hilary's political career was helped by the whole Lewinsky scandal. She came out looking like a sympathetic and in control person. Notice that her career has skyrocketed since.

Dan8267 says

I suppose it doesn't matter to you that the vast majority of those who suffered in Gitmo and other gulags were innocent.

"vast majority" and that would be by "your standards" i guess.

Dan8267 says

And now that America has done exactly the same, do we have no humanity?

Seems like the exact same kind of unrestrained blood-lust and dehumanization of the enemy. Thank you for proving my point.

you mean your rooting for the other guys.. no doubt you see them as some heroes.

nope.. no surprise coming from Dan on that one...

I'm rooting for humanity and rationality. I suppose those principles would be the enemy to someone like you who maintains a Stone Age tribal mentality. Such narrow-minded thinking is the greatest threat to the continuation of our species in modern times. There's only one tribe on this planet: humanity.

Dan8267 says

I'm rooting for humanity and rationality. I suppose those principles would be the enemy to someone like you who maintains a Stone Age tribal mentality. Such narrow-minded thinking is the greatest threat to the continuation of our species in modern times. There's only one tribe on this planet: humanity.

where was your so called "humanity and rationality" when George Zimmerman shot Trevor Martin in self defense.. all you showed how narrow minded you were attacking Zimmerman from day 1.

you were here on PNET posting lies if not spreading lies, calling the whole incident racist... calling Zimmerman a murder, stalker, liar, white racist and many other things.

And a month later photos were released and evidence of attack was provided to the public.

Like so many things.. you have been wrong time and time again...Oh you just couldnt help yourself! Check with the North Koreans.. they might have a job for you !

thomaswong.1986 says

where was your so called "humanity and rationality" when George Zimmerman shot Trevor Martin in self defense..

You mean when he stalked Martin like an animal, chased after him, and then lied to the police about it? You mean how Zimmerman, the only armed person in the situation, was unable to keep Martin at a distance when he chased after Martin, and how Zimmerman had to shoot in self-defense while Martin was screaming for help from anyone?

If Zimmerman were black and Martin white, you'd switch sides. I wouldn't.

Oh, and by the way, I called for the arrest and open trial of Zimmerman, not his torture.

http://www.businessinsider.com/witnesses-told-police-george-zimmerman-chased-trayvon-martin-down-before-shooting-him-2012-5

George Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin before shooting the "skinny" 17-year-old and any scuffle was over by the time a shot was fired, according to some witnesses.

Two women who heard someone screaming for help before Martin died told Florida investigators Zimmerman followed the teen before killing him.

"And I can tell you there was no fighting going on at the time the gun went off," one of the women, identified only as W16, told police. "And the fight that happened started way down the sidewalk. Now the kid got shot way down here, you know, 5 doors down."

Never let facts get in the way of your hate.

While the biased liberal media continually discusses the death of 1 black, thousands of blacks and a disproportionate number of whites have been murdered by blacks since Trayvon died. It would be racist to mention this fact though.

Trayvon Martin died because he made verbal threats to commit murder and committed a plausible attempt to get the gun to murder George Zimmerman. Anyone forfeits their life when you attempt to steal a firearm and say "You're going to die tonight motherfucker" after beating him and pinning an armed person on the ground.

If there were 2 different locations between the assault and shooting, there would be physical evidence being shown on the biased liberal media to prove it, not the account of 2 witnesses.

Zimmerman said that Martin asked, "You got a fucking problem, homie?" Zimmerman replied no, and then Martin said that he did now, and punched him.
As they struggled on the ground, Zimmerman on his back with Martin on top of him, Zimmerman yelled for help "probably 50 times." (See Background sounds of yelling for help in 9-1-1 calls) Martin told him to "Shut the fuck up," as he hit him in the face and pounded his head on a concrete sidewalk.
When Zimmerman tried to move off the concrete, Martin saw his gun and said "You're going to die tonight motherfucker!" Martin grabbed for the gun, but Zimmerman grabbed it first. He said after firing his weapon at Martin, he wasn't sure at first that he had hit him, so he got on top of him in order to subdue him.
Bystanders and police arrived shortly after Martin was shot.

Police reports state Zimmerman "appeared to have a broken and a bloody nose and swelling of his face."

I understand...
If i was a mysogynist i'd try to laugh it off and change the subject too....
You are guilty as charged.

Dan8267 says

SoftShell says

So Hillary was an afterthought in all of that..

Spoken like a true misogynist...

What a laugh. Like you have anything but the greatest animosity towards Hilary Clinton. Hey, how about you vote for her when she runs in 2016.

Oh, and Hilary's political career was helped by the whole Lewinsky scandal. She came out looking like a sympathetic and in control person. Notice that her career has skyrocketed since.

Dan8267 says

Never let facts get in the way of your hate.

Nothing you stated were 'facts'.
In both sides, it seems like "facts" that support each others claim.
Sure did seem to trickle in Johny come lately.
I mean we see, Zimmerman's bloody face, months after the police station video showed a reasonably neat appearing Zimmerman getting out of the squad car. I'd like to know when the photo's of his bloody face was taken. If it was taken inside of the police station, after he arrived then that's bullshit.

That being said...

As for Witnesses, their memory of recounting the event, sure improved as time wore on. It's amazing how embellished it became with each retelling.

Washington had no damn business, politicizing the event. Obama using the sad event as campaigning fodder. Running around the country riling people up, peeling the scab back on race relations in this country and letting the whole thing bleed out. All the while ignoring his obligations, and responsibilities to perform his duties. Oh like creating a budget, and steering us from the financial cliff.

The whole fucking thing is and was botched from start to finish. So much so, if I were the judge, I'd throw the whole case out.

What difference does it make at this point? Southern California is now Mexico whether the Hispanic population is legal or illegal, the culture is here. I bought an English/Spanish dictionary so I could try to communicate with some of those beautiful Latin women. "como estas benita"? : D

Dan8267 says

If Zimmerman were black and Martin white, you'd switch sides. I wouldn't.

That's how we test our own objectivity, n'est-ce pas? I feel like the right always wants to thugify the victims when they're minorities. And in the case of undocumented workers, calling them "illegal" can justify all sorts of inhumanity.

Do folks who wants an end to "illegals flooding our borders" picture brown-skinned people? Asians? Canadians?

I knew a few Germans/Austrians who let their visas expire. I don't think the right is targeting them as criminals.

CL says

I don't think the right is targeting them as criminals.

I had a good Isreali friend who over stayed and was eventually deported.
I also knew a lady, who had a British boy friend he was deported.
And unlike Hispanics, who only come up for deportation, when they are snagged in some other police action, traffic citation ect... In both of these cases, the INS showed up at their house and whisked them away.
It happens every day, there's just no body speaking about the "injustice", because there was no bloody injustice. They were "Illegal Aliens" at that point.

There do you feel better now?

robertoaribas says

yes it would be racist. Because it has nothing to do with this particular
case, and rather is used to imply that all blacks are dangerous thugs...

My statement was meant to draw attention to the fact that blacks kill blacks all the time yet 0 of them ever make front page news for more than a year like the Trayvon Martin death has. It is also a fact that this would not be national media news if TM was not black or the media initially thought GZ was not white.

There are far more numerous and unfathomably brutal crimes committed by blacks against whites(knoxville horror for instance) that receive 0 national attention. You'd be hard pressed to find a torture killing of a black by a white though.

robertoaribas says

AND zimmerman can't start a fight

All GZ said was the word "no" in response to TM's profanity laden greeting and was assaulted. This is not starting a fight, it is called being a victim of assault. GZ also spoke to a non emergency police dispatcher, not the "police" that night. "We don't need you to do that" is not an order, lawful or otherwise. GZ was smart to follow his best judgement at that point in time.

To his reason why TM assaulted a stranger, there is strong evidence that TM was going to get high and this encounter would get in the way of that.
TM's parent and his girlfriend were out of the house and he was in possession of drug paraphernalia at the time. Skittles and Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail is a popular drug among blacks when mixed with liquid codeine. It's called sippin sippin/sizzurp/purple drank. There was no iced tea and the TM family lawyers knew this but created a lie about the sizzurp ingredients.

CL says

And in the case of undocumented workers, calling them "illegal" can justify all sorts of inhumanity.

Do folks who wants an end to "illegals flooding our borders" picture brown-skinned people? Asians? Canadians?

I knew a few Germans/Austrians who let their visas expire. I don't think the right is targeting them as criminals.

that already happened before they stepped foot across the border. Another way looking at the illegals is they are victims of human trafficking that goes on by Mexican criminal organizations pulling in $3-5 Billion every year.

Crime
‘The New Mafia’: Human Trafficking Along U.S./Mexican Border Produces ‘Startling Pattern of Torture, Rape and Murder’

Brutal crimes crossing over the U.S. southern border from Mexico is the latest dangerous import threatening America’s cities. Growing cases of human trafficking, drug smuggling and violent acts are overwhelming law enforcement officials from Texas to California in scenes reminiscent of the days of organized crime waves orchestrated by professional criminal syndicates.

Is there a “new mafia” in America today?

The Daily:

A brutal new crime wave from Mexico is hitting America’s suburbs. Drug cartels and their heavily armed henchmen are moving into the house next door, torturing and imprisoning victims for profit in middle-class neighborhoods. Law enforcement agencies from Texas to Northern California report being overwhelmed by the surge of violence.

“Mexican drug cartels are in well over 200 cities here in the United States,” Gil Kerlikowske, the White House drug czar, told The Daily. When his boss, President Obama, meets with President Felipe Calderón of Mexico today in Washington, violence from the drug war will be at the top of the agenda.

One of the most disturbing and least discussed aspects of this new crime wave is the “drop houses” — rented homes that function as makeshift prisons where criminal gangs and human smugglers hold large numbers of victims for ransom. The phenomenon is centered in the Southwest, often in foreclosure-devastated suburbs, but is spreading across America.

“What we’re talking about is nightmares, the stuff of nightmares,” said Los Angeles-based special agent Jorge Guzman of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. ”[It’s] playing out in suburban America — playing out all over America.”

Human Trafficking: Putting an End to Modern Day Slavery
Why is Human Trafficking Being Readily Ignored by Governments Around the World?

Human trafficking is a multi-billion dollar criminal empire, and most of it's victims are women and children. The U.S. state department estimated that nearly 1 million people (approximately 800,000) smuggled across international borders including the United States from Mexico. This is one of the biggest criminal enterprises that has literally taken over an entire planet making it an ever growing epidemic. The Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Albanian, and Mexican mafias (styled after the Italian mafia as far as organization and level of illegal business dealings) have their hand in this ever growing business of modern day slavery.

I take GZ's account to be accurate because it is plausible that TM did exactly what GZ said TM did. As a middle class white person, you're thinking its impossible to punch someone in the face. To young black males, it is a normal way of life.

It is not plausible that GZ planned to murder a stranger and called for police to show up right before pulling the trigger. This is illogical.

Given the fact that TM punched a bus driver and his since deleted degenerate online postings, it is a good bet that TM was a violent petty thug who bit off more than he could chew.

I hear no accounts in the media from TM's peers, friends and others who dealt with him at school/the neighborhood about what type of person he was. You only hear from his parents stating that he was a good boy who couldn't possibly hurt anyone, which is fairly typical banter from the relatives of dead black criminals.

Can someone remind what right or authority Zimmerman had to chase Martin into the backyard with a gun?

IDDQD says

Start from reminding us where did you get the idea about Z chasing M into his
backyard in the first place. We'll roll from there.

Well, if you read the original police report, here:
http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

You will see on page 7 that Martin's body was found between 1231 Twin Trees Ln and 2821 Retreat View Circle.

A quick google maps search of those addresses shows that their back yards are adjacent to one another. This means that Martin's body was found in the grass, in the backyards, of these houses. This is no where near the street.

So in order to get from the street, where Zimmerman reports he was (sitting in his car) observing Martin, Martin had to follow, on the sidewalk, the path that lead behind those houses into the backyard.

Zimmerman had to get out of his car, with his gun, and follow Martin on this walkway behind a house into the backyard. These are the facts.

So I ask you, if someone follows your son, with a gun, into the back yard of a house in your neighborhood, then shoots and kills him, is there any situation in which he was not murdered?

Doesn't your son have the right to defend himself from someone chasing him with a gun?

At night, no less? The police report states that they arrived on scene at 7:17. Sunset in Sanford, FL on February 26, 2012 was 6:22. Nearly an hour - the time between sunset and dusk is usually a half hour.

There was no law or anything else that prevented GZ from going anywhere TM went. It is not a crime, or even wrong, to follow a suspicious person with or without a legal firearm. Some person who is loitering in the rain and unknown to the neighborhood watch is suspicious.

TM would most likely be alive today if he didn't choose to verbally threaten GZ with murder("You're going to die tonight") and attempt to steal GZ's legal firearm from his person.

foxmannumber1 says

TM would most likely be alive today if he didn't choose to verbally threaten
GZ with murder("You're going to die tonight") and attempt to steal GZ's legal
firearm from his person.

This is heresay, circumstantial evidence at best. Further, it does not matter - it is illegal to shoot another person with a gun and kill them unless it is justifiable homicide.

There are zero scenarios in which you may act as the aggressor in an altercation then later claim "self-defense" or "stand-your-ground." The primary (read: first) aggressor in this altercation was Zimmerman by the very nature of pursuing Martin.

Martin was within every one of his rights to take whatever steps neccesary to defend himself. It was his, and only his in this situation, right to "stand his ground."

It cannot be a justifiable homicide to chase someone with a gun, get your ass kicked, then shoot them.

Martin would MOST CERTAINLY be alive today if Zimmerman kept his fat ass in his car.

SoftShell says

If i was a mysogynist i'd try to laugh it off and change the subject too....

You are guilty as charged.

First of all, in order for me to be a misogynist, Hilary would have to be a woman...

david1 says

It cannot be a justifiable homicide to chase someone with a gun, get your ass kicked, then shoot them.

Why not? Cops do that all the time.

Glad to see your back on topic.
Now, stop proving my point and try to prove yours....

Dan8267 says

SoftShell says

If i was a mysogynist i'd try to laugh it off and change the subject too....

You are guilty as charged.

First of all, in order for me to be a misogynist, Hilary would have to be a woman...

foxmannumber1 says

Trayvon Martin died because he made verbal threats to commit murder and committed a plausible attempt to get the gun to murder George Zimmerman.

CaptainShuddup says

As for Witnesses, their memory of recounting the event, sure improved as time wore on. It's amazing how embellished it became with each retelling.

So let me get this straight. In order to be impartial, I should consider the word of the accused to be unquestionable, but I should completely ignore the word of the neutral witnesses who have nothing to gain or lose in the outcome of the trial?

Pardon me if I think you got that backwards.

david1 says

The primary (read: first) aggressor in this altercation was Zimmerman by the very nature of pursuing Martin.

False. The first crime of the night was when TM punched GZ in the face, probably breaking his nose. TM assaulted GZ first and unprovoked. GZ did not strike TM at all, and yelled for help about 50 times. Watching where someone is going and speaking no words other than "no" is not stalking or anything else.

CL says

Dan8267 says

If Zimmerman were black and Martin white, you'd switch sides. I wouldn't.

That's how we test our own objectivity, n'est-ce pas?

It's the best criteria of objectivity I've ever heard. Of course, if someone can come up with a better criteria, I'd be happy to listen.

I really don't give a rat's ass about Martin's or Zimmerman's races except how they relate to the motive of the crime.

I'm sure a lot of things will come up in the trial, but this is what I know so far:

1. Martin did nothing wrong or illegal. Supposedly the only suspicious thing Martin did was wear a hoodie while being black. That's not probable cause in my humble opinion.

2. Zimmerman followed Martin for a length of time.

3. Martin was clearly freaked out by this as proved by his phone call to his girlfriend.

4. In defiance of police orders, Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Martin on foot.

5. A physical alteration occurred. No one who wasn't there knows exactly what happened, but clearly Zimmerman lied about where this alteration took place.

Now I have no problem with Martin using physical force to defend himself. Hell, self-defense is exactly what Zimmerman was claiming. But they can't both be acting in self-defense. And since Martin was the pursuer, I don't buy the stand-your-ground defense.

IDDQD says

Displaying a weapon at a distance is highly discouraged by laws in most (if not all) states: it's called "brandishing" and can lead to loss of CCW permit or even gun rights altogether.

And killing a person with a weapon is considered way the fuck more illegal in most states, including Florida. A person fearing for his life does not follow the alleged would-be-murder like Zimmerman followed Martin, and a person fearing for his life certainly would not close the distance enough for the other person to make physical contact.

Had Zimmerman actually been on the defensive, he would have never gotten that close to Martin, or if Martin had turned towards him, would have drawn his weapon at a distance. This would be a much better thing to do under Florida's Stand-You-Ground and 10-20-Life laws. As it stands, Zimmerman faces life in prison under the 10-20-Life law.

And, yes, as a Floridian, I don't want to see the Stand Your Ground law becoming a loophole for any asshole with a chip on his shoulder killing innocent people.

There is no excuse what-so-ever for Martin not being alive today. Zimmerman had no reason to stalk and confront him to begin with. And anything Martin said or did in the heat of battle trying to defend himself after being hunted is not a license to kill for Zimmerman.

I strongly suspect that if IDDQD was the one being chased by Zimmerman, IDDQD would have simply turned around, taken out his gun, and shot Zimmerman in the head without asking questions, and then say "God bless America and the Second Amendment".

To refute your numbered points:

1. Martin was loitering in the rain past sundown. This is suspicious.
He began to do something wrong and illegal when he punched GZ in the face.
He continued to do something wrong and illegal when he threatened to kill GZ with his own gun.

2. True.

3. False. TM's girlfriend has been caught in lies, lowering her credibility about everything.
http://dailycaller.com/2013/03/06/prosecutors-admit-trayvon-martins-girlfriend-lied-under-oath/

4. False. There was no police order to do anything. "We don't need you to do that" from a non emergency dispatcher over the phone is not an order, lawful or otherwise.

5. False, we know exactly where the assault occurred. There are photographs of the damage done to GZ and the lack of damage, aside from a bullet wound, on TM.

I believe GZ approached TM because he did not fear for his life yet. Assaulting a person who says "no" is such an over the top, unnecessary and violent reaction that you have to question that person being a civilized human being.

Dan8267 says

So let me get this straight. In order to be impartial, I should consider the word of the accused to be unquestionable, but I should completely ignore the word of the neutral witnesses who have nothing to gain or lose in the outcome of the trial?

When that testimony reeks of collaboration rather than corroboration.

I hear they have operations for that....

Dan8267 says

CaptainShuddup says

As for Witnesses, their memory of recounting the event, sure improved as time wore on. It's amazing how embellished it became with each retelling.

So let me get this straight. In order to be impartial, I should consider the word of the accused to be unquestionable, but I should completely ignore the word of the neutral witnesses who have nothing to gain or lose in the outcome of the trial?

Pardon me if I think you got that backwards.

foxmannumber1 says

Martin was loitering in the rain past sundown. This is suspicious.

1. Martin wasn't loitering. He was walking in his neighborhood.

2. This isn't suspicious unless your a racist and the other guy is black. I frequently walk around my neighborhood after dark and even in the rain. I like rain and I like stars.

3. You know what is suspicious? A white skin-head following a young black teenager in a car, then getting out of the car and chasing him down. That's mother-fucking suspicious.

foxmannumber1 says

He began to do something wrong and illegal when he punched GZ in the face.

Wait a second, I thought your whole premise that self-defense was legal. Martin, not Zimmerman, had every reason to be in fear of his life and to use self-defense. If Martin defending himself with his hands from a stalker isn't legal, then Zimmerman shooting Martin sure as hell isn't.

foxmannumber1 says

He continued to do something wrong and illegal when he threatened to kill GZ with his own gun.

And where is the evidence that Martin made such a threat? Maybe if Zimmerman had pulled out a cell phone instead of a gun, we'd have reason to believe that. By the way, this is proof that smartphones are far better defensive weapons than guns. You start streaming live to YouTube and no one is going to do something that will land them in jail. You shoot someone you suspect may have a gun, and you're ass could be fried in many states.

Oh, and one more thing about this alleged threat. Martin didn't have a gun. Zimmerman was the only person armed.

Oh, and Zimmerman has a long history of committing crimes that were dismissed because he has family connections in courtrooms.

Maybe this case proves that we need new and better firearm restrictions.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/f4hcAw7pFG8

foxmannumber1 says

TM's girlfriend has been caught in lies, lowering her credibility about everything.

You mean like Zimmerman?

There mere fact that the call was made, which is an indisputable fact given phone records, proves that Martin was concerned about being followed and was not the suspicious one.

foxmannumber1 says

we know exactly where the assault occurred. There are photographs of the damage done to GZ and the lack of damage, aside from a bullet wound, on TM.

Zimmerman lied about the very events that took place.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/10098/george-zimmerman-continues-to-lie-about-the-trayvon-martin-murder

He even says that once he shot Trayvon, he [Zimmerman] somehow was able to get on top of him and straddle him while he was face down on the ground. According to Zimmerman, during this time he had pinned Trayvon’s arms down and was yelling at him to stop while Trayvon screamed and cursed. He even went further and said that someone came up with a flashlight and Zimmerman asked for help subduing Trayvon because he was still struggling. Keep in mind, Zimmerman said all of this took place after Trayvon was shot. If you listen to one of the 911 calls where you can hear screams in the background, you hear nonstop screams for help until you hear gunshots. No random yelling, screaming, or cursing like Zimmerman said was also going on at the time; just cries for help. Once the gun is fired, there is pure silence until neighbors begin to trickle out and the police come.

Speaking of lies...

The Many Lies Of The Zimmerman Family

Seriously, foxmannumber1, you need to listen to Martin's horrific screams for help as he was attacked by Zimmerman. This is an actual audio recording of events as heard by the 911 system.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/C6Lr3DOqaSE

No, your Mexican Chuhuahua, (rabid offshoot).

robertoaribas says

foxmannumber1 says

As a middle class white person, you're thinking its impossible to punch someone in the face. To young black males, it is a normal way of life.

first off, I'm hispanic,

IDDQD says

I see. You're using word "backyard", commonly understood as private piece of land usually fenced and not accessible to general public to describe unfenced common-use grassy area. I'm not sure about FL laws but in self-defense/weapons cases CA treats such areas as public. Even SFH front yard or driveway are considered public areas if they are unfenced, i.e. you can't even go out on your front lawn with a loaded gun in your pocket and castle doctrine doesn't apply there either.

No, you don't see. I am not making an argument that Martin had private property or castle rights.

I am merely stating the facts. Zimmerman was watching Martin, from his car, walk along a road. Martin followed a path into the back yard of two houses. Zimmerman pursued him into the back yard.

Anything else that happened after that does not matter. Zimmerman forfeited any "stand your ground" or self-defense rights he had the minute he stepped out of his car and followed Martin.

IDDQD says

If you want to talk about my sons, my advice to them would be: if somebody suspicious follows you close to you home - go inside and lock the door.

Fine advice. It would seem to me that Trayvon's father gave his son similar advice, evidenced by the fact that after noticing he was being followed by someone in a car, fled BEHIND A HOUSE, away from the street, towards his house.

IDDQD says

Defend from what exactly? Following and asking questions in public areas? Do we know when the gun's presence became known - before or after physical contact? To claim defense the fact of an assault needs to be established. This goes both ways, of course. I don't feel we have enough information to come to a definite conclusion.

It is reasonable for someone who is being pursued to assume malice. Martin obviously suspected it; he mentioned as much to his girlfriend, and got away from his pursuer the best way he knew - by getting away from the street (as his pursuer was in a car). You obviously suspect it as well - as evidenced by your advice to your sons to get away as quickly as possible.

It is not reasonable for Zimmerman to assume malice. He did not witness Martin commit a crime; AND Martin fled from him.

Anything and everything that happened after Zimmerman got out of his car and pursued Martin is inconsequential. It does not matter if the events happened exactly as Zimmerman claims. Martin was within his legal rights, if he felt threatened, to defend himself in whatever way necessary. Martin did not even have to attempt to flee based upon Florida's Stand Your Ground Statute FL 776.012 (1). That he fled only strengthens his intent to avoid conflict.

Zimmerman does not have rights under the statute because, WHILE SITTING IN HIS CAR, it was not reasonable for him to assume imminent unlawful force against himself by Martin.

Dan8267 says

Maybe this case proves that we need new and better firearm restrictions.

As The Young Turks point out, if Zimmerman didn't have a gun, the worst thing that would have happen would have been simple assault and a few broken ribs.

IDDQD says

Unfortunately "suspicion of malice" is not good enough to justify self-defense actions like shooting someone or starting throwing punches. For self-defense do be justified conditions should exist for reasonable person to fear that he's in immediate danger of death or great bodily injury. "Some creepy guy following me" does not qualify for self-defense actions.

Some creepy guy chasing after me on foot does. Martin had a greater reasonable expectation that his life was in danger than a homeowner has when someone breaks into his home just based on statistics.

A big ass man chasing you is a hell of a lot more likely to kill you than a burglar. Most burglars would flee on site of a homeowner, not knowing if he had a gun or not, and in fact plan their burglaries when they believe no one is at home. Yet, I but you'd be all for "shoot first, ask questions later" if a burglar entered your home.

robertoaribas says

That is why he is making up all the "he went for my gun" and "he said he would kill me" bs... because he knows damn well that he had no good reason to shoot him.

He lost a fight and got pissed.

I believe that is the most likely scenario. Zimmerman had a history of being an angry, wanna-a-be cop who didn't want to follow the law himself.

Dan8267 says

Seriously, foxmannumber1, you need to listen to Martin's horrific screams for help as he was attacked by Zimmerman. This is an actual audio recording of events as heard by the 911 system.

TM had no reason to scream for help as he was the one giving the beating, not taking one. Even the most diehard black apologists, liberals and race deniers will admit that TM injured GZ with his fists and TM's only injury were bruised/bloody knuckles and a gunshot wound.

TM was not being physically injured in any way until he was shot to death. GZ, however, had plenty to scream over. GZ had a broken nose and constant pounding on the concrete which is easily proven. GZ did not fight back in the 2 minutes of this call. GZ only took TM's life after TM said "You're going to die tonight motherfucker" and TM attempted to take the gun from GZ, which was still on his side.

In order to believe that GZ wanted to kill TM, you have to believe that GZ is very lucky and had a very intricate plan. GZ called the police and wanted them out there before he even knew who the loiter was. GZ then takes a beating and ends up shooting his assailant right before the cops show up. GZ is either a mastermind criminal and everything went his sadistic way just like it would in a Hollywood movie, or TM really did try to kill GZ with his own weapon.

IDDQD says

I don't follow how you jump from one guy following another in a public place to Z somehow forfeiting his self-defense rights.

Because by following him, he was not acting in "self-defense!" A very specific set of circumstances, beyond your control, must be met in order for you to have self-defense rights. You cannot go charging into a fight unprovoked and claim self defense.

One has the right to property as well - but property is not simply granted without meeting a set of circumstances first. One of many ways you can exercise your right to property is to purchase the property.

Without meeting any of the sets of circumstances to property, you cannot exercise that right.

Similarly, Zimmerman did not meet the set of circumstances to exercising his right of self-defense. Most specifically, he got out of his car and pursued Martin. He had the right to do so, but not without leaving his right of self-defense in the car.