patrick.net

CaptainShuddup says

Accidental killing perhaps

Read the FBI chart heading. It says, "Murder Victims". If you want to add in accidental deaths by firearm versus knife the statistic will just continue to "shoot" up in showing how much more deadly firearms are.

Call it Crazy says

Also, if you've been paying attention the last year or so, the MSM always focuses on the "assault rifle" as being the biggest killer.... But, when you look at FBI data, the FACTS are a bit different on what is used in higher instances of murder....

I'm un-impressed. A simple "yes, I'm being obtuse, and only focusing on rifles in my statistics" is a fine answer.

Homeboy's point was about the weapon type that would cause the most casualties in a mass homicide. To pretend the comparison here between knife and firearm isn't going to be made, and to willfully ignore all other firearms is just beyond disingenuous.

What's next? You going to claim we cannot draw any meaningful comparison because we don't have enough statistics on all murders committed by all edged and blunt weapons?

The doctor from the pittsburgh area did not seem at all distressed - looks like an actor from a latino soap. Hribal, the "perpertrator" looks like an offspring on one of soviet spetsnaz soldiers - they were trained in terrorist psyops - one of their avenues is to create internal dissension through propaganda and other means. I have no choice but to conclude that this "attack" was orchestrated to further the anti gun sentiments of americans in order for the soviet empire to rise again. Notice how all of a sudden 1 day after this they want to charge gorbachev with "treason" for the disollution of soviet union...

thunderlips11 says

This wouldn't have happened if the local PD had an Armored Fighting Vehicle.

Oh come on! A situation would have taken at a bare minimum THREE of these:

Furthermore it exactly this kind of situation that demands we suck it up as a nation and build a fleet of these:

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/bulletin/the-all-electric-destroyer-is-here/

NO price is too high for the safety of our children!

That's what happens when students SAT scores decline. By this time, they should have discovered how to manufacture sarin gas rather than resorting to knives and guns.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

IF every school kid had an M134

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

in your lunch box

That had me laughing! :)

Well as a great man once said:

Every Good Boy Deserves Gatling Gun!

http://patrick.net/?p=1225488

bgamall4 says

f any of you guys really had the guts to understand the Sandy hook Hoax, you would take this topic more seriously

Are you really so deluded that you think anyone takes you seriously?

To be fair, the knife is about equally lethal as a 9mm pistol. Most victims unless they are hit in brain or heart, are highly likely to live unless they bleed out after not getting timely medical attention.

However seems like the high-profile massacres opt for rifles, e.g. Sandy Hook. So it is a valid point on a different level.

bob2356 says

bgamall4 says

f any of you guys really had the guts to understand the Sandy hook Hoax, you would take this topic more seriously

Are you really so deluded that you think anyone takes you seriously?

The reason why most people latch onto conspiracy theories is because the thought that one, or a few, people's acts can dramatically and horrifically influence the lives of many people is much more terrifying than believing there is some sinister force at work behind it all.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/magazine/why-rational-people-buy-into-conspiracy-theories.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The scariest belief to hold is that some things are just outside our control, and sometimes a random act of a person, or nature, can have huge lasting impacts on the many.

bgamall4 says

Something something, Einstein. Is it a conspiracy? Of course it was.

Speaking not as a government but an equal individual, I have to say... Dude, shut up!

bgamall4 says

Rew says

he reason why most people latch onto conspiracy theories is because the thought that one, or a few, people's acts can dramatically and horrifically influence the lives of many people is much more terrifying than believing there is some sinister force at work behind it all.

Ok, house prices doubled in the past year, Einstein. Is it a conspiracy? Of course it was.

The relevance of that? And no, they didn't.

Rew says

The reason why most people latch onto conspiracy theories is because the thought that one, or a few, people's acts can dramatically and horrifically influence the lives of many people is much more terrifying than believing there is some sinister force at work behind it all.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/magazine/why-rational-people-buy-into-conspiracy-theories.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The scariest belief to hold is that some things are just outside our control, and sometimes a random act of a person, or nature, can have huge lasting impacts on the many.

Wow, I just thought it was because they were nutty as a fruitcake. Patnet is a constant source of education of education to me.

bgamall4 says

bob2356 says

bgamall4 says

f any of you guys really had the guts to understand the Sandy hook Hoax, you would take this topic more seriously

Are you really so deluded that you think anyone takes you seriously?

You have the IQ of a turtle.

Actually I have a very high IQ which is why I pay zero attention to anything you say other than as a source of amusement. Of course I found Shrek and Roberto equally, if not more, amusing so I probably qualify as having a warped sense of humor.

In LA cops just shot a innocent man fleeing an apartment building where he was being attacked by a crazy guy with a knife. Cops thought he was the bad guy and shot the unarmed victim fleeing the apt building.

If trained officers cannot shoot the right people consistently... Then how is arming a school or the public NOT going to cause a ridiculous increase in "accidently" shooting the wrong person. Or aiming and missing the person you meant to shoot!

bgamall4 says

bob2356 says

Actually I have a very high IQ which is why I pay zero attention to anything you say other than as a source of amusement

If you have a high IQ, you are a paid shill for the Zionists.

Do you ever actually check what you've typed before posting?

Vicente says

To be fair, the knife is about equally lethal as a 9mm pistol.

Cite as to your statistical basis for making that claim?

dublin hillz says

The doctor from the pittsburgh area did not seem at all distressed - looks like an actor from a latino soap. Hribal, the "perpertrator" looks like an offspring on one of soviet spetsnaz soldiers - they were trained in terrorist psyops - one of their avenues is to create internal dissension through propaganda and other means. I have no choice but to conclude that this "attack" was orchestrated to further the anti gun sentiments of americans in order for the soviet empire to rise again. Notice how all of a sudden 1 day after this they want to charge gorbachev with "treason" for the disollution of soviet union...

Don't forget the cockeyed arm.

bgamall4 says

You are an idiot. Do you deny the conspiracy to drive prices up by cash purchases sponsored by Wall Street?

There is now a conspiracy for Wall street paying cash for gatling guns and driving up the prices? OMG I didn't know that. It's really hard to keep up, can you make up a detailed list of conspiracies and conspirators so we can refer to it?

Vicente says

To be fair, the knife is about equally lethal as a 9mm pistol.

So are table salt, water, baby food, fluffy pillows, pretty clouds,...even nothing at all (vacuum)

Anything and EVERYTHING is lethal if used as such.

New Renter says

Vicente says

To be fair, the knife is about equally lethal as a 9mm pistol.

So are table salt, water, baby food, fluffy pillows, pretty clouds,...even nothing at all (vacuum)

Anything and EVERYTHING is lethal if used as such.

Let's do a real world scientific test then, a "put your money where your mouth is" sort of trial. I'll be armed with a loaded 9mm pistol of my choosing. You are armed only with a wet paper towel. We will stand at 20 feet apart on an open football field. Person left alive after 3 minutes is the one chosen by God to be correct. Sound good?

Almost anything can be lethal, yes, but some things are far more lethal than others. (maybe this is the point you were making?)

Vincente ... I think Homeboy will have to wait a long long time for your evidence that a 9mm and a knife are on par with their ability to kill. If that were really true, I would believe police officers would be given an option to carry a knife as side arm in the US. Do you really believe in this mass stabbing, if it was instead mass shooting by 9mm, the causality to fatality rate would be exactly the same? I sure don't.

New Renter says

So are table salt, water, baby food, fluffy pillows, pretty clouds,...even nothing at all (vacuum)

Anything and EVERYTHING is lethal if used as such.

Yeah except for the pesky fact that when guns are used in a mass attack, tens or hundreds of people can be killed, whereas with anything else, the killer would be lucky to take out even a couple people.

Funny, I have yet to hear about anyone going on a killing rampage with table salt.

These types of arguments always fail because they don't stand up to even the slightest logical scrutiny. Some people could die from eating peanuts; therefore a nuclear warhead and a peanut have exactly the same lethal force?

Remember back in the late 1800's, when in the western USA there were approximately 2 unregulated guns owned per household, that there was a rash of school shootings where dozens of kids were wounded or killed?

Remember those chapters in your US History book where it seemed like nearly EVERY year some kid would swipe his father's shotgun and not only take out the teacher who'd been smacking his knuckles with a ruler for years, but also half of the class as well?

Yeah, me neither.

That's because the tendency to commit mass violence is new. The guns or knives are not the reason why a disturbed kid feels that extreme violence is any kind of an option. Now, in the minds of kids...it IS an option. It's already happened. It's been on a computer monitor (or television for you old folks).

It's not the percentage of weapons per citizen. The cause is more deeply ingrained. You're probably going to engage is some of the primary cause as a form of entertainment this weekend.

I put more blame on the liberal movement toward political correctness, lack of discipline, legal actions against schools and even parents for offending (let alone disciplining) troubled kids.

For as far back as I can remember of my school days, I had my scouting pocket knife in my pocket, along with a house key, a chapstick and a guitar pick. Pulling it out and stabbing the kid next to me with it was never even a remote option. Once I spent six months in Manhattan, however, I learned that some kids, in some areas of the world, definitely considered pulling out a knife and stabbing someone with it, an option in the event of trouble.

It's culture. It's our shrinking proximity to one another. It's the shoving of culture against culture under increasing pressure. It's the violent, interactive and immersive entertainment we use as escapism.

You should worry more about quadcopters for godsake.

I agree there is a large cultural component to the issue.

We used to have a culture that was far more accepting and tolerant of driving while intoxicated. There has been a major cultural shift in a relatively short amount of time, to make people who are DDing social pariahs. The fines and punishment for such mistakes are very severe, versus just 50 years ago, when you might get a small fine and driven home by the police officer. "Had too much eh? Let me drive you home."

I think a cultural shift like the above is needed to help curtail our gun violence issues. The severity of punishment for any crime committed with a firearm should be off the chart draconian.

Our cultural tolerance for violence is far too high. Much higher than sex or drugs. See our film rating systems as proof.

I also think a multiple choice test, and demonstrating you know which end the bullet comes out of, is a horrible measure to demonstrate responsible gun ownership.

Our culture of the gun today is not one of hunting and actual self defense. Most do not grow up around firearms the same way they would in the 1800s or early 20th century. Our culture of the gun today is "John Woo" explosions, paint ball, and CNN 'after action reports' of the wars in the Middle East.

Combine the above culture, with easy access to firearms, and horrible mental health practices, and well ... that's pretty much the issue right?

We can disagree on solution implementation ... but I think we are slowly (far too slowly as a nation) starting to come to grips with the root of the issue.

Rew says

Let's do a real world scientific test then, a "put your money where your mouth is" sort of trial. I'll be armed with a loaded 9mm pistol of my choosing. You are armed only with a wet paper towel. We will stand at 20 feet apart on an open football field. Person left alive after 3 minutes is the one chosen by God to be correct. Sound good?

I suppose that depends on how good you are with your 9mm@20 ft. Some people couldn't hit a barn at that distance.

How about this instead. You keep your normally loaded 9mm, I'll have a .44 magnum fully loaded with blanks. Each holds their weapon to the other's temple and pulls the trigger.

I'll shoot the first round, after all its just paper, right?

http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/h/Jon%20Eric%20Hexum/jon_erik_hexum.htm

bgamall4 says

bob2356 says

There is now a conspiracy for Wall street paying cash for gatling guns and driving up the prices?

Houses, Einstein. Houses in many areas including LA have doubled within not much more than a year. It is a conspiracy and if you can't see it you are stupid, and your IQ is as a turtle's. If you see it and are lying to me I hope God strikes you down with a bolt of lightning.

Exactly which many area's have doubled this year? I don't know of any.

All these different conspiracies are so confusing. There is a great need for a conspiracy encyclopedia. Perhaps you could dedicate your life day and night for the next 5 years or so to it and then publish it here.

Would that be a zionist bolt of lightning or just the regular kind?

deepcgi says

Remember back in the late 1800's, when in the western USA there were approximately 2 unregulated guns owned per household, that there was a rash of school shootings where dozens of kids were wounded or killed?

Remember those chapters in your US History book where it seemed like nearly EVERY year some kid would swipe his father's shotgun and not only take out the teacher who'd been smacking his knuckles with a ruler for years, but also half of the class as well?

Yeah, me neither.

Um, yeah, it'd be pretty tough to remember something from when you weren't alive.

http://southernoklahoma.com/schoolshootings/

The earliest known United States shooting to happen on school property was the Pontiac's Rebellion school massacre on July 26, 1764, where four Lenape American Indian entered the schoolhouse near present-day Greencastle, Pennsylvania, shot and killed schoolmaster Enoch Brown, and killed nine or ten children (reports vary). Only two children survived.[17]
[edit] 1800s

• November 2, 1853 Louisville, Kentucky A student, Matthew Ward, bought a self-cocking pistol in the morning, went to school and killed Schoolmaster Mr. Butler for excessively punishing his brother the day before. Even though he shot the Schoolmaster point blank in front of his classmates, he was acquitted.[18]

An April 30, 1866 editorial in the New York Times argued against students carrying pistols, citing "...pistols being dropped on the floor at balls or being exploded in very inconvenient ways. A boy of 12 has his pantaloons made with a pistol pocket; and this at a boarding-school filled with boys, who, we suppose, do or wish to do the same thing. We would advise parents to look into it, and learn whether shooting is to be a part of the scholastic course which may be practiced on their boys; or else we advise them to see that their own boys are properly armed with the most approved and deadly-pistol, and that there may be an equal chance at least of their shooting as of being shot."[19]

• June 8, 1867 New York City At Public School No. 18, a 13 year old lad brought a pistol loaded and capped, without the knowledge of his parents or school-teachers, and shot and injured a fellow classmate.[20]

• December 22, 1868 Chattanooga, Tennessee A boy who refused to be whipped and left school, returned with his brother and a friend, the next day to seek revenge on his teacher. Not finding the teacher at the school, they continued to his house, where a gun battle rang out, leaving three dead. Only the brother survived.[21]

• March 9, 1873 Salisbury, Maryland After school as Miss Shockley was walking with four small children, she was approached by a Mr. Hall and shot. The Schoolmaster ran out, but she was dead instantly. Hall threw himself under a train that night.[22]

• May 24, 1879 Lancaster, New York As the carriage loaded with female students was pulling out of the school's stables, Frank Shugart a telegraph operator shot and severely injured Mr. Carr, Superintendent of the stables.[23]

• March 6, 1884 Boston, Massachusetts As news of Jesse James reached the east coast, young kids started to act in the same manner. An article from the New York Times reads, "Another "Jesse James" Gang - "Word was brought to the Fifth Police Station to-night that a number of boys were using the Concord-street School-house for some unknown purpose, and a posse of officers was sent to investigate. The gang scattered at the approach of the police, and in their flight on drew a revolver and fired at Officer Rowan, without effect, however. William Nangle, age 14, and Sidney Duncan, age 12, were captured, but the other five or six escaped, among them the one who who did the shooting. The boys refused to disclose the object of their meeting, but it is thought that another "Jesse James" organization has been broken up."[24]

• March 15, 1884 Gainsville, Georgia In the middle of the day, a group of very drunk Jackson County farmers left the Jug Tavern drinking and shooting their revolvers as they headed down the street driving people into their homes. As they approached the female academy, the girls fled the schoolyard into the school where the gang followed swearing and shooting, firing several rounds into the front door. No one was hurt.[25]

• July 4, 1886 Charleston, South Carolina During Sunday school, Emma Connelly shot and killed John Steedley for "circulating slanderous reports" about her, even though her brother publicly whipped him a few days earlier.[26]

• April 12, 1887 Watertown, New York Edwin Bush, a student a the Potsdam Normal School committed suicide by shooting himself in the head.[27]

• June 12, 1887 Cleveland, Tennessee Will Guess went to the school and fatally shot Miss Irene Fann, his little sister's teacher, for whipping her the day before.[28]

• June 13, 1889 New Brunswick, New Jersey Charles Crawford upset over an argument with a school Trustee, went up to the window and fired a pistol into a crowded school room. The bullet lodged in the wall just above the teacher's head.[29]

The first known mass shooting in the U.S. where students were shot, was on April 9, 1891, when 70 year old, James Foster fired a shotgun at a group of students in the playground of St. Mary's Parochial School, Newburgh, New York, causing minor injuries to several of the students.[30] The majority of attacks during this time period by students on other students or teacher, usually involved stabbing with knives, or hitting with stones.

No, there don't seem to be a lot of mass murders in the double digits in the 1800s. Know why? Because they didn't have assault weapons and large-capacity clips. Notice the death tolls in shooting events rise as weapons technology rises. And when somebody goes back to an older method of violence, e.g. a knife, few or none die in the attack.

It's really quite a straightforward observation. You really have to be in denial not to see it.

Violence is not a new thing. What IS new are weapons that allow one person to murder a large number of people at one time.

deepcgi says

It's culture. It's our shrinking proximity to one another. It's the shoving of culture against culture under increasing pressure. It's the violent, interactive and immersive entertainment we use as escapism.

No, it's guns.

bgamall4 says

bob2356 says

Would that be a zionist bolt of lightning or just the regular kind?

Regular. bob2356 says

Exactly which many area's have doubled this year? I don't know of any.

Many places were close to 40 percent gains in 2012-2013, not quite doubling. There were likely places where it came close. Greatest areas of increase were Phoenix, Las Vegas, etc.

No, they weren't. Standard & Poor's/Case-Shiller price index rose 11.3% in the 4th quarter of 2013 compared to a year earlier. The Case-Shiller index for the 20 major metro areas rose 13.4%. The largest rise (and yes, it's a very large rise) was Las Vegas at 25.5%. San Francisco and LA also saw very large increases at 22.6% and 20.3% respectively. Phoenix rose by 15.3%:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303426304579404832837589354

Substantial rises by anyone's standards but still a far cry from your made up claims.

bgamall4 says

Many places were close to 40 percent gains in 2012-2013, not quite doubling. There were likely places where it came close. Greatest areas of increase were Phoenix, Las Vegas, etc

Doubled is 100%. I don't consider 40%, close to 100%, especially when the real number for the largest city rise is Vegas at 25.9%. I would be glad to buy your house and pay you 25.9% of the selling price. Shouldn't be a problem for you since it's close to 100%.

"It is a far better thing to remain silent and appear to be foolish rather than to speak out and remove all doubt" Mark Twain

I suspect one reason gun advocates are so wary of this debate about gun clip size is the seemingly arbitrary nature of the boundary between "ok" weapons and those with large clips that are too large.
Where do we draw the line, at 12 bullets? If 12, when we have a mass killing where 12 people die (or 24 if the attacker has two handguns), will people argue to reduce the clip size to 8? After all, 8 is enough for home defense, and that would save 4-8 lives in this hypothetical.

I don't know what the right thing to do is, personally. While clip size regulations and automatic gun restrictions and laws against grenades and other heavy weaponry seem reasonable to me now, does anyone *really* think that guns are the root cause? I certainly do not - by definition anyone who goes on a shooting spree has a metal illness of some sort, and I can't help but think we'd have more success by improving how we handle mental illness. If we're going to regulate guns, maybe we should focus on keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill and those who live with them.

bgamall4 says

Houses, Einstein. Houses in many areas including LA have doubled within not much more than a year. It is a conspiracy and if you can't see it you are stupid, and your IQ is as a turtle's.

bgamall4 says

At the low end, houses that were going for 120k, for a brief time sold for as high as 190k or even 200k. There used to be a slew of houses under 150k in Las Vegas that are now over 200k

Houses In many places including LA have doubled isn't even close to being the same statement as if I look hard enough I can find (maybe, there is nothing but your say so) some houses in vegas that went up as much as 40%.

So if I have a turtle IQ that would make yours what? Plant life perhaps.

bgamall4 says

Bigsby says

No, they weren't. Standard & Poor's/Case-Shiller price index rose 11.3% in the 4th quarter of 2013 compared to a year earlier.

You are correct, but from the bottom, 2009 or 2011 whichever you pick, to now some house prices went up in Las Vegas from 100k to close to 200k.

Er, I'm sure SOME houses in SOME PLACES have doubled in price since 2009, but that was not the claim you made, was it?

MattBayArea says

does anyone *really* think that guns are the root cause?

I certainly don't think guns are the root cause of violence; they just do a lot more damage than fists or knives or baseball bats.

MattBayArea says

I can't help but think we'd have more success by improving how we handle mental illness.

That's a start, albeit a very small one. We need to stop pretending mental illness isn't real. I've seen people on this very forum claim that mentally ill people would be fine if they'd just eat right. Denial doesn't solve the problem. At least ACA now says that treatment for mental illness must be covered by health insurance. In the past, it frequently wasn't even covered at all.

MattBayArea says

If we're going to regulate guns, maybe we should focus on keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill and those who live with them.

There are 11,000 gun murders a year in the US. No offense, but I think it's pretty naive to think "keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill", and nothing else, is going to even put a dent in that number.

Call it Crazy says

Or better yet, how about focusing on the group that's doing the murders.

Good point, I'll go along with your call to ban guns for under 24 year olds.

bgamall4 says

Bigsby says

Er, I'm sure SOME houses in SOME PLACES have doubled in price since 2009, but that was not the claim you made, was it?

That is what I meant. So thanks for clarifying my position Bigsby.

That's what you meant? Presumably that is why you said:

bgamall4 says

Ok, house prices doubled in the past year, Einstein. Is it a conspiracy? Of course it was.

bgamall4 says

Bigsby says

That's what you meant? Presumably that is why you said:

bgamall4 says

Ok, house prices doubled in the past year, Einstein. Is it a conspiracy? Of course it was.

Time flies fast Bigsby. I just knew that in some places house prices have doubled from the crash and you confirmed it for me, so thanks.

I didn't confirm anything you said. I refuted it. The fact you now want to pretend you said something completely different doesn't change that.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-stabbings-4-male-youths-1-female-dead-1.2610465

Calgary stabbings: 4 male youths, 1 female dead