patrick.net

Nothing on Walnut Creek? Too bland?

WC is cool, they got a nice shopping area on main st, some wide open spaces to the east of 680 and convenient intersection of hwys 680/24. Problem is that most job commutes via car from WC will encounter severe traffic back and forth.

13 corntrollio 2014 Apr 24, 6:52am

Or are they mostly (aside from SF and Oakland), boring white suburbia with your choice of Applebee's?

Dublin is probably the closest to boring suburbia of the choices you mentioned. Fremont isn't necessarily particularly white, and neither is Daly City. Both have a lot of local businesses that aren't Applebee's.

You also mentioned work/relocating business in particular, which people seem to be ignoring. Daly City, Fremont, Dublin, and Walnut Creek are all BART-served (as are certain parts of SF and Oakland, obviously). When the Warm Springs extension is done, Fremont will have at least one more BART station, possibly two (they are considering one in Irvington).

Dublin definitely has some businesses already there (Sybase/SAP and I believe Carl Zeiss Meditec has a big facility there). Walnut Creek is probably more retail-based (a lot of mall-type stores) + hospital (John Muir + Kaiser). Daly City has Genesys and also Seton hospital as a big employer, and you have a lot of businesses in South San Francisco next door (most famously Genentech, but there are so many other tech businesses that you see on 101 now). Fremont gets the big spillover from Silicon Valley, just off the top of my head Western Digital and Seagate are there, Tesla is obviously there at NUMMI, Lam, and Boston Scientific has a big facility too.

The big exception here is San Rafael -- Marin County is so isolated and overpriced, and not a great place to work. There are almost as many people in Fremont as in all of Marin County. Marin is also lilywhite, if you're not looking for that. If you're a rich anti-development hippie, Marin County is for you, but it's off-putting to many. San Rafael is more diverse than most of the county, but I'd be skeptical of it as a place to relocate a business.

If you care about schools, Fremont can be really good or somewhat bad, Daly City is just average, Walnut Creek has at least three districts covering it, one of which is amazing, Dublin is pretty good, and I don't know about San Rafael in particular -- probably not as good as say Tam in Marin County.

You'll notice I didn't say much about SF and Oakland. Both are popular for the young urban-living population. I don't think of SF as particularly business-friendly -- the Board of Supervisors is pretty hostile to business interests and passes a lot of protectionist regulations that entrench existing shitty businesses and specifically keep out new businesses. SF has a massive payroll tax (which includes things like equity/options), unless you strike a deal to locate in a shitty area like Twitter did to avoid the tax. That said, there are obviously plenty of startups in SF, and the trend has been towards locating in SF more than Silicon Valley, as opposed to during the dotcom bubble.

Oakland is underrated, and gets a bad rap -- don't get me wrong, there are parts that are absolute cesspools, but it's a big city and has a lot of moving parts. I don't know how business-friendly it is -- the city government is a bit activist and not business-friendly and doesn't seem particularly effective, but that's also true of SF.

14

SFace 2014 Apr 24, 8:03am

Oakland. Let's put it this way, if there are some political statements (court ruling, police incidents), the A's lose a key game, The RAIDER's does something awesome or not, chances are there is a violent raid somewhere in Oakland. Occupy wallstreet or occuppy Oakland.

The track from BART to lake Merritt heading to Pandora/Kaiser/Lake Merritt Condo is one of the most dangerous path, everyone got mugged at one time (armed not armed).

With respect to the nice homes, ask the residents who put up personal money to hire security to patrol their neighborhood because or all the in home armed robberies.

15 corntrollio 2014 Apr 24, 9:23am

SFace says

The track from BART to lake Merritt heading to Pandora/Kaiser/Lake Merritt Condo is one of the most dangerous path, everyone got mugged at one time (armed not armed).

You mean on the train? If you're talking about walking from BART to Pandora, I'm pretty sure you'd get off at 19th Street instead of Lake Merritt station. Pretty sure you're exaggerating a bit, in any case.

SFace says

With respect to the nice homes, ask the residents who put up personal money to hire security to patrol their neighborhood because or all the in home armed robberies.

The nice thing about criminals is that they're often so lazy that they don't go up hills.

16 EBGuy 2014 Apr 24, 9:44am

controllio said: The nice thing about criminals is that they're often so lazy that they don't go up hills.

The more ambitious ones do drive up the hills:
Police said Salamon had been in the Subaru when she encountered the men, whom she believed were involved in a burglary or robbery. In an effort to gather evidence, Salamon began to record them with her cell phone, said Oakland homicide Sgt. Mike Gantt.

"These suspects then entered their suspect vehicle and drove away," Gantt said. "Ms. Salamon ultimately followed them back over to Fern Street, where she was shot and killed and her phone taken."
From 2 arrested in killing of Oakland's 'pet nanny'.

And speaking of Oakland, Redfin shows no inventory -- zip, nada, zilch -- in Rockridge.

17

CL 2014 Apr 24, 10:11am

The nice thing about criminals is that they're often so lazy that they don't go up hills.

I don't know anymore. Maybe they got cars? :) Lots of my friends in the Hills are still concerned, and hiring private security like you guys said. My old place mid-hills seems under assault.

But I agree...I love Oakland, but the crime seems so random nowadays.

18

CL 2014 Apr 24, 10:13am

https://patrick.net/?p=1237570&c=1050330#comment-1050330

You also mentioned work/relocating business in particular, which people seem to be ignoring.

Yeah. Our business is in SF and we've grown a lot. Thinking about bifurcating or relocating, or whatever. I think talent may be drawn to SF or Oakland, rather than suburbia. But a lot of the points you all made are very helpful and illustrative.

Thank you all, and continue if you have more!

19 corntrollio 2014 Apr 24, 10:39am

EBGuy says

"These suspects then entered their suspect vehicle and drove away," Gantt said. "Ms. Salamon ultimately followed them back over to Fern Street, where she was shot and killed and her phone taken."

From 2 arrested in killing of Oakland's 'pet nanny'.

Wait, what does this have to do with hills? The incident is described as the 2400 block of Fern. That's between High and Seminary in East Oakland, which is no-go:

Maybe you're just saying they steal cars to go rob people in the hills, but I don't think that happens in practice as much as people here are implying. I get that people are concerned that OPD is being rendered ineffective by the incompetent city government and may be responding in a particular way.

I always wondered how Berkeley managed to avoid the bad rap that Oakland gets. Maybe the university halo -- the town is in some ways a far worse shithole than Oakland is perceived to be by people who don't spend much time there because even the nice parts near campus have high crime.

20 Carolyn C 2014 Apr 24, 11:24am

All my friends and my family from the central valley were terrified about me purchasing a home in Oakland. But after they came to visit and spent time in the city they realized Oakland was a very lovely city and now they have a different view. Recently I knew of a family that moved from Fresno to the bay area and were told by fellow employees to steer clear Oakland due to the crime. After speaking with me they decided to rent in Oakland and are enjoying living in the city. They frequent the local parks, ethnic markets, hike the redwood trails, and of course visit San Fransisco. The husband loves his short commute into San Fransisco from Oakland. His view of Oakland has certainly changed and I am sure he is sharing his experience with his co-workers. Oakland has more to offer than most cities.
Love Oakland

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SFace 2014 Apr 24, 11:38am

Caroyln,

Moving from the central valley/Fresno to the bay area, albeit Oakland is a big part of it.

The crime statistics, robbery, violent, homicides speak for themselves. There's just not enough officer's (around 700 sworn) to reverse the trend. Safety is a very subtle thing and hard to measure but it makes no sense to compromise on safety.

22

CL 2014 Apr 24, 11:59am

Carolyn C says

All my friends and my family from the central valley were terrified about me purchasing a home in Oakland. But after they came to visit and spent time in the city they realized Oakland was a very lovely city and now they have a different view. Recently I knew of a family that moved from Fresno to the bay area and were told by fellow employees to steer clear Oakland due to the crime. After speaking with me they decided to rent in Oakland and are enjoying living in the city. They frequent the local parks, ethnic markets, hike the redwood trails, and of course visit San Fransisco. The husband loves his short commute into San Fransisco from Oakland. His view of Oakland has certainly changed and I am sure he is sharing his experience with his co-workers. Oakland has more to offer than most cities.

Love Oakland

I love Oakland too, but the crime is real and getting worse. I don't think there is a neighborhood that is immune anymore. The criminals are brazen, with takeover robberies and home invasions and such --I have to admit I'm glad I left it.

Maybe it will ebb and flow, and get better soon.

Agree re: Berkeley. I think neighboring cities benefit by being able to pretend that crime happens "there", but not "here". During the takeover spree in Oakland, there were bank robberies in SF but that didn't get the coverage of "bad old Oakland".

It was the same in Chicago, where reported crime was isolated to the south side or Gary, but I knew of major crime on the Gold Coast that went largely unreported.

23 Carolyn C 2014 Apr 24, 2:02pm

http://www.examiner.com/article/oakland-crime-down-gentrification-up-mayor-quan-looks-good

I do think Oakland has all the makings of a great city. However the problem remains on how to alleviate Oakland's crime, but maintain it's cultural flare.

24 thomaswong.1986 2014 Apr 24, 2:34pm

Which of the following cities are best to live/work in?

the "time" came and went... some people thing the grand golden
years will come back without having to put in the effort...

there was a reason why there was a boom decades ago...

but it escapes many today!

25

BayArea 2014 Apr 24, 2:36pm

Too many ignorant people out there when it comes to Oakland. As someone that has spent about 10yrs there, I can confirm that Oakland has a spectrum of course... Rockridge, Oakland Hills, Montclair, Lake Merritt, Piedmont, all great places to live/work/play.

East Oakland? Ya stay out. This is the small part of Oakland that you see on the news.

26

BayArea 2014 Apr 24, 2:40pm

Oh, and of the cities on that list, Walnut Creek would be my choice.

It's clean, safe, has a fun downtown, and probably has the smallest concentration of Bay Area "riff-raff" of any city on that list... How's that for PC?

27 FunTime 2014 Apr 25, 8:11am

Depends on what you like. San Francisco is the main attraction. Does that appeal to you? Silicon Valley is the center of employment. Do you want to be close to work? Oakland is an incredible city with the same kinds of food, culture and living you expect from big cities. I find the suburbs difficult to distinguish from one another but generally like the cultural and technological histories of the peninsula cities more than the sprawl towns like Walnut Creek. Of course, places like Walnut Creek are priced so buying a house costs less since there's not much else there besides houses and schools.

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Peter P 2014 Apr 25, 8:14am

San Rafael.

But SF has better restaurants.

29 Craig78 2014 Apr 25, 8:24am

We love San Rafael. 30 minutes by clean bus with Wifi to downtown S.F. where we work. Sunny, great stores, hiking trails, places to bike and a nice downtown with only few bums. You can drive a car around here and there is parking. Plus within a short drive great recreation trails around the watershed on the side of Mt. Tam.

There is plenty of diversity in Marin. Irish, Italians, Germans, English, all the people that look like our family and that we can share a common culture and values with. F* multiculturalism.

30

Peter P 2014 Apr 25, 8:30am

If you live in Larkspur you can also take the ferry to SF.

Multiculturalism is not bad, but SF has too many crazies.

Does Marin have good Japanese restaurants other than Sushi Ran?

31 corntrollio 2014 Apr 25, 8:49am

Craig78 says

30 minutes by clean bus with Wifi to downtown S.F. where we work.

Calling shenanigans on this. If I remember correctly, even the 4:30AM bus from the San Rafael transit center is scheduled for more than 30 mins to the Financial District, and that's when no one is on the road. Anything at a less ungodly hour is between 40-60 mins I'd guess, without looking at a schedule. To Civic Center, for the buses that go there, is probably 45-60 mins, typically. Add 5-10 mins if you are going beyond Financial District/Civic Center towards the end of the line. And you'd also have to walk/bike/ride to the transit center.

If you had said the Larkspur Ferry, I'm pretty sure the first few in the morning are 30 mins, but later in the morning it becomes 35 mins. Of course, you also need to add your commute to the actual ferry terminal to that.

The other thing I'd cite, although this could just be sample size, is that Marin is so frickin' small-town that many of the teenagers/young adults are stoner burnouts with little motivation. It's a boring place with nothing to do -- but that's what happens when you live in undeveloped small towns of 5-10K up in the hills. San Rafael is obviously bigger than the typical Marin town, but it's still pretty small-town.

Peter P says

Does Marin have good Japanese restaurants other than Sushi Ran?

Marin barely has any good restaurants (or very many restaurants period with its tiny spread-out population), although I've heard good things about Sir & Star, and I had a good experience at Fish (but paid for it). Marin is very small town -- locals may like some of the restaurants because they're what's around, but a lot of them are mediocre or worse to people who've been to other good restaurants in the rest of the Bay Area or wine country.

32 FunTime 2014 Apr 25, 9:21am

Peter P says

San Rafael.

But SF has better restaurants.

SF has more "better restaurants" than San Rafael has restaurants.

33 FunTime 2014 Apr 25, 9:24am

Calling shenanigans on this.

My very close friend who lived there for years and bought a house there used to lie like this too. He used to tell me 45 minutes. But every time I drove there on a weekend with no traffic it was nearly 45 minutes. So I always wondered what part of the trip he helicoptered. If I was spending that much of my life driving to work, I'd lie too. It's a matter of survival. Facing the facts would be too difficult.

34

rufita11 2014 Apr 25, 10:00am

I grew up going to church in Oakland and lived in Berkeley for a decade. I had two black boyfriends in college (yes. They refused to call themselves African American). Guess the amazing and culturally diverse places I was exposed to during those two relationships? Boyfriend #1: Pizzeria Uno in SF and Oakland. Boyfriend # 2: Applebees, TGIF, Marie Calendars. He seemed to know where all of these chains were in every town in the bay area. These are places my culturally divers white self would have never gone to.

My advice is to stop thinking you want cultural diversity and admit you don't know what that actually means. CL says

I've lived in Oakland for most of my life in the Bay Area-- It's got a lot of white folks there. But it has culture and flavor, whereas most of the lily white areas in this country are cultural deserts, unless you like TGIF.

35 corntrollio 2014 Apr 25, 10:14am

He seemed to know where all of these chains were in every town in the bay area. These are places my culturally divers white self would have never gone to.

My advice is to stop thinking you want cultural diversity and admit you don't know what that actually means

So CL doesn't know what cultural diversity means because your boring unimaginative boyfriends took you to shitty chains? I don't know quite how that follows, but maybe you can explain.

Motherfucker could have at least taken you to Zachary's if he wanted deepdish.

They refused to call themselves African American

My black friends from Caribbean islands always though the term "African American" was bizarre. They didn't consider themselves African, and they didn't consider themselves American, and yet people tried to call them that. I've had white friends born in Africa who later became American citizens -- they have a better claim to the term than the typical use.

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rufita11 2014 Apr 25, 10:32am

Controllio. All I'm saying is cultural diversity does not = having brown people around and ethnic restaurants. He's the one who said TGIF and Applebees are indicators of a lack of cultural diversity. When most of the patrons in there are "diverse".

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CL 2014 Apr 25, 10:50am

So CL doesn't know what cultural diversity means because your boring unimaginative boyfriends took you to shitty chains? I don't know quite how that follows, but maybe you can explain.

Exactly. Look, I've been all over this country and the lily white cities always have Applebee's or TGIF, or another chain store with the same flavors. Chipotle this, Jack Daniel that.

I grew up on the South Side of Chicago. One of my earliest clients was an Afro-sheen company. Not too many Applebee's, but there were McDonald's and all kinds of heart disease inducing eateries to choose from.

On the far North side, I had the Pakistani neighborhood, the Jewish, the Indian, the Mexican and a black block or two. That's diversity, and it was great. It's great like that in much of the Bay Area too, but with a slightly different ethnic mix.

Remarkably, in none of the ethnically diverse neighborhoods was there a TGIF.

My advice is to stop thinking you want cultural diversity and admit you don't know what that actually means

If you want to hang your hat on "Applebee's=culturally diverse", or "Black guys dig TGIs", go ahead. I think most people know that's ludicrous.

All I'm saying is cultural diversity does not = having brown people around and ethnic restaurants.

No, of course not. It means all the countries of Northern Europe and the full panoply of Protestantism!!

Enlighten me. What does cultural diversity mean to you, if not enjoying the richness of ethnicities from throughout the world, and appreciating their food, culture, religion, art and language?

38 corntrollio 2014 Apr 25, 10:57am

All I'm saying is cultural diversity does not = having brown people around and ethnic restaurants.

To be fair, the actual quote was:

But it has culture and flavor, whereas most of the lily white areas in this country are cultural deserts, unless you like TGIF.

To CL's defense, CL didn't say cultural diversity, CL was talking about culture period, whoever's culture it is. You interpreted that as cultural diversity, which has swayed the discussion away from the original quote.

He's the one who said TGIF and Applebees are indicators of a lack of cultural diversity. When most of the patrons in there are "diverse".

And again, I'd say based on the original quote, CL said that TGIF shows a lack of *culture* regardless of whether or not diversity is there. He's suggesting that your unimaginative boyfriends were uncultured, not that they weren't "diverse."

As an example, large portions of Seattle and Portland are white as hell, but they still have culture. The only things whiter than those areas are probably Klan rallies and people on ski slopes.

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CL 2014 Apr 25, 11:06am

To CL's defense, CL didn't say cultural diversity, CL was talking about culture period, whoever's culture it is.

All true. I've lived in Europe too, and I enjoy that culture. I lived in England for a year. Some of the cities and countries are pretty monolithic, but I can dig that.

I have a few different BAs in World Religion, and in Foreign Language, Arts and Literature. I like to meet and enjoy what each has to offer.

Although it's still true that lots of white America is a cultural dessert, replete with the chains, big box stores and so on. I'd prefer not to return to that, having spent a lot of my life in Indiana as well.

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rufita11 2014 Apr 25, 11:11am

Enlighten me. What does cultural diversity mean to you, if not enjoying the richness of ethnicities from throughout the world, and appreciating their food, culture, religion, art and language?

To me, it means actually living within the lives of people of diverse cultures, eating in their homes and they in yours. Going to their weddings and taking part in the hidden lives that they don't sell in their restaurants. I'm used to being the only white person in the room, so it's not easy living in San Ramon where my Native American husband wants to live--He wants to be the only brown person in the room.

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Ceffer 2014 Apr 25, 11:19am

Cultural diversity means having next door neighbors giving exploding vest terrorist lessons in their living room, but agreeing not to hurt you because you are their neighbor.

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SFace 2014 Apr 25, 11:47am

Enlighten me. What does cultural diversity mean to you, if not enjoying the
richness of ethnicities from throughout the world, and appreciating their food,
culture, religion, art and language?

It means when you go to any school, restaurant, public event and there are people from nations all over, you don't feel a damn thing and don't notice it. It is so natural that you don't even think about it nor care.

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CL 2014 Apr 25, 12:05pm