patrick.net

jews do resist assimilation (not all that successfully lately). but what they do not do is:

1. attempt to impose jewish religious law on everyone

2. murder you if you use freedom of speech to criticise them

3. murder you if you leave judaism

4. deliberately murder random civilians in their host countries

So, why did most Americans want to prevent immigration of refugees from Hitler's regime? In particular, they didn't want to take the Jews. Here's snope's take on it if you don't trust the social media posts RE the Harvard Crimson poll: http://www.snopes.com/2015/11/17/harvard-crimson-jewish-refugees/.

Quigley says

The hundreds of thousands of young Muslim men invading Europe aren't refugees. They're an invading army.

Does this gem come from your own head or some sort of fear-based news program?

YesYNot says

Does this gem come from your own head or some sort of fear-based news program?

It comes straight from the blood of the victims in Paris. You should be ashamed of your smug attempts of downplaying this violence.

mell says

It comes straight from the blood of the victims in Paris. You should be ashamed of your smug attempts of downplaying this violence.

Perhaps you should be ashamed of inferring meaning from blood. What are you going to read next, the tea leaves? Does calling me smug make you feel better about your fearful position?

Rough cut plan...

0- Surround isis held territory with massive NATO forces to contain them and make it impossible for them to escape.
1- create refugee cities in syria/iraq
2- Heavily fortify them with NATO forces, 100,000 or so, making it impossible for isis to penetrate
3- redirect all refugees to these places. Vet each one as much as possible to minimize the amount of sleeper cells.
4- Have the world contribute to food/water/shelter to keep the place going indefinitely.
5- Set a date to which refugees must evacuate isis held areas
6- Bring in the b52's and level the places to the ground.
7- Send in NATO ground troops to clean up the survivors.
8- Have the refugees rebuild and restock the land
9- Rinse and repeat until the majority wake up and enter the 21st century.

curious2 says

22% of Syrians call ISIL/Daesh "a positive influence." Could we please at least exclude those 22%, even if they say it's their religion?

I would guess it's even high because the poll probably didn't sample as many Syrians from the East of the country, due to ISIS control, where Sunni Islam dominates and hatred of Alawites, Kurds, and Shi'a is more prevalent.

YesYNot says

These refugees that you are so afraid of are mostly widows and children who's loved ones were murdered by ISIS or other violence in the area. They are subject to 18 months of scrutiny before they are let in. There have been zero arrests of refugees for terrorism in the US since 2001. Time to put the goblet of fear and loathing away.

They are overwhelmingly young men, and many of them are married and left their wives and children in MENA. Also, a huge number are non-Syrians pretending to be Syrian, by ditching their own passports in the sea. Authorities are reporting hilarious cases of black-as-midnight Eritreans and Somalis claiming to be Syrian. Multiple Copies of one of the Paris attackers' fake passport, same name and personal information but different photo, have been found in Europe in the hands of other migrants.

Like I said earlier - sending young British Males to South America 1939-1945 would contribute to an Allied Loss, not a Victory. Why accept young male Syrians?

thunderlips11 says

They are overwhelmingly young men, and many of them are married and left their wives and children in MENA.

Well, perhaps that is true of the refugees he is afraid of, but for all of the refugees in general, it is not true. Of those, 38% are under 12, and the slight majority are female.
http://www.factcheck.org/2015/09/stretching-facts-on-syrian-refugees/

YesYNot says

Well, perhaps that is true of the refugees he is afraid of, but for all of the refugees in general, it is not true. Of those, 38% are under 12, and the slight majority are female.

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/09/stretching-facts-on-syrian-refugees/

That is all refugees registered by the UNHCR. In other words, that counts all those living in Jordanese and Turkish and Lebanese Refugee Camps, it is not a count of the people streaming into Europe.

Where da women and children at?

Luegenpresse!

Don't know. But that picture doesn't necessarily represent the 10,000 Obama wants to bring in. If it does (I doubt it), I'll change my opinion.

YesYNot says

There have been zero arrests of refugees for terrorism in the US since 2001.

What is your source for that assertion? I have read of three cases, and I don't presume to know of most, let alone all. Furthermore, calling ISIL/Daesh "a positive influence" is not an arrestable offense, even though it suggests an alarming risk level.

Plenty of refugees get involved with Terror, like Mohamed Osman Mohamud.

Not to mention all the terror cases that aren't called terror, like Muhammad Abdulaziz .

And of course the Boston Bombers, also Refugees. Multiple US authorities knew all about their radicalism, but figured they were more of a threat to Russia and didn't bother tracking them closely.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/28/us/tsarnaev-boston-bombing-sentencing/

Gary's favorite Newspaper - note the Sandy Hook Conspiracy headline. Found in the Brothers' apartment, well thumbed.

thunderlips11 says

That is all refugees registered by the UNHCR. In other words, that counts all those living in Jordanese and Turkish and Lebanese Refugee Camps, it is not a count of the people streaming into Europe.

Where da women and children at?

Luegenpresse!

Come on--you're better than that. You're implying that actual statistics of the demographics of refugees is less reliable than a picture of a group of males??

tatupu70 says

Come on--you're better than that. You're implying that actual statistics of the demographics of refugees is less reliable than a picture of a group of males??

YesYNot is quoting the numbers of people in refugee camps. NOT the numbers of migrants entering Europe. I think I made that clear in my response.

The number of adults migrating into Europe is overwhelmingly, stunningly male by a wide margin.

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

And half are NOT Syrians.

thunderlips11 says

YesYNot is quoting the numbers of people in refugee camps. NOT the numbers of migrants entering Europe. I think I made that clear in my response.

The number of adults migrating into Europe is overwhelmingly, stunningly male by a wide margin.

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php

And half are NOT Syrians.

You did--but your only counter argument was a picture. The link you provided is much more convincing.

curious2 says

YesYNot says

There have been zero arrests of refugees for terrorism in the US since 2001.

What is your source for that assertion? I have read of three cases, and I don't presume to know of most, let alone all. Furthermore, calling ISIL/Daesh "a positive influence" is not an arrestable offense, even though it suggests an alarming risk level.

http://www.cato.org/blog/syrian-refugees-dont-pose-serious-security-threat

Fucked By Goats Ironman says

Name one person who has actually done that. Remarkable misdirection!

Calling someone's justified concern about the well-being of their family and loved-ones after the paris attacks and the history over the past years a fear-based program qualifies for me. We all know that the narrative is false that the refugees don't pose a threat. Patrick.net is full of posts and proof indicating otherwise. Now we can talk and speculate about how big of a security risk that is, but to say there is none is a blatant lie. I think careful vetting, letting in women and children only and possibly Christians (though this is of course hard to verify and can be spoofed) may be a decent middle-ground.

Here's another source that claims zero terrorist attacks by refugees admitted to the US.

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/258440-we-risk-more-in-not-accepting-syrian-refugees-into-the-us

YesYNot says

Here's another source that claims zero terrorist attacks by refugees admitted to the US.

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/258440-we-risk-more-in-not-accepting-syrian-refugees-into-the-us

It's not a source, it's a study of violence surrounding refugee camps.

Another Quickly, quickly, quickly, take in the refugees. No vetting, no triage, let them in fast!!!

thunderlips11 says

Another Quickly, quickly, quickly, take in the refugees. No vetting, no triage, let them in fast!!!

No one is asking to skip the vetting process or even to do things quickly.

YesYNot says

No one is asking to skip the vetting process or even to do things quickly.

The vetting process is a joke. You get official records by bribing officials, which is how most official documentation in Third World Countries are created. There is no way to tell fake from real because both are done in the Government Office by the people who make the "real" documentations, on the same stationary with the same stamps.

Yup.
The only reasonable strategy is to take in the women and children lowering the overall risk, and send the men back to fight for their country.

thunderlips11 says

The vetting process is a joke.

HydroCabron says

MMR says

because they are muslims first and indians second

Hitler says the same about Jews: they never adopt the nationality of countries they inhabit.

I'll dig up my copy of Mein Kampf later. It is in my storage locker.

Hydro, there is no difference between Islam and Hitler. They say and act the same.
Hitler started WW2, Islam started WW3. The difference..... Hitler had friends, Islam has no friends.

SoftShell says

The only reasonable strategy is to take in the women and children lowering the overall risk, and send the men back to fight for their country.

You think they won't just send in the women and children with strap-on bombs? I think there is a verse about that in the Koh-ran.

Lowers the risk...does not eliminate it...

Philistine says

You think they won't just send in the women and children with strap-on bombs? I think there is a verse about that in the Koh-ran

YesYNot says

No one is asking to skip the vetting process or even to do things quickly.

How would you even vet for such a thing? Criminals of all kinds surprise people with their actions.... "He was always a quiet young man. Never played loud music. Always polite." You cannot really know what's going on in someone's head. A radical fundamentalist doesn't have to admit to being such on his tourist visa application. Unless a person is a well-known higher-up in the terrorist organization, would we really be able to find out which "little guys" attended meetings and subscribe to fundamentalist beliefs? Do they keep attendance records when they hold their meetings in caves? Even for the moms and children... You don't know what those mommas are teaching their kids. How would you vet for that? Osama was once a little boy. The desire to remove oneself from a dangerous place to one that is safe is pretty basic need for a mother with children. That doesn't mean that they are going to check their beliefs at the border.

Philistine says

SoftShell says

The only reasonable strategy is to take in the women and children lowering the overall risk, and send the men back to fight for their country.

You think they won't just send in the women and children with strap-on bombs? I think there is a verse about that in the Koh-ran.

Muslims are preached to love their Prophet more than their children. They can be sacrificed.

turtledove says

would we really be able to find out which "little guys" attended meetings and subscribe to fundamentalist beliefs?

Worse. What about those that sympathize from afar, but are never directly involved in organized activity? All it takes is once for somebody to surprise us with criminal actions.

turtledove says

doesn't mean that they are going to check their beliefs at the border.

Forget The Other. I know plenty of people that live right in my own city and work in my very own office that barely conceal their beliefs specific to their racial, ethnic, 3rd-generation-nationality, indeed, even *individual* experience, that they will spend a lifetime Not Checking at the Door, let alone any border.

"The Danish Infidels took my 40-year old husband away. I, Aisha, 14 years old of the Bakalaka Clan, vow revenge. I will name my son Mua'dib Al-Lisan Al-Grozny, he will terrorize these disgusting Shirk apes! He will be raised with the knife! We will take their money and their disgusting oatmeal food, fit for only camels and monkeys, and rise up with the righteousness of God against these destroyers of Holy Sanctified Marriage and Goodness! What filth they make me go through, to declare my Legal Islamic Marriage haram under the false Crusader Ape Pig Law by those who add Gods to God to 40-year old Mohammed Al-Baldy as his second wife, as performed by Imam Bakaklakadaka and the approval of my Mother, Father, Grandmother, and Aunt Dirkadirka!"

thunderlips11 says

Danish....

I couldn't find a source for that but found this instead: "Danish girl, 15, and her Muslim boyfriend, 29, stab her mother to death after watching Islamic State beheading videos"

turtledove says

How would you even vet for such a thing? Criminals of all kinds surprise people with their actions.... "He was always a quiet young man. Never played loud music. Always polite." You cannot really know what's going on in someone's head. A radical fundamentalist doesn't have to admit to being such on his tourist visa application. Unless a person is a well-known higher-up in the terrorist organization, would we really be able to find out which "little guys" attended meetings and subscribe to fundamentalist beliefs? Do they keep attendance records when they hold their meetings in caves? Even for the moms and children... You don't know what those mommas are teaching their kids. How would you vet for that? Osama was once a little boy. The desire to remove oneself from a dangerous place to one that is safe is pretty basic need for a mother with children. That doesn't mean that they are going to check their beliefs at the border.

The process was explained in some source or other I posted over the last couple of days. It's not perfect of course. But according to the sources I've found no one who has gone through the process has committed any terrorist act in the US. We let 60,000 to 70,000 refugees into the US every year. http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/refugees-fact-sheet

Here's a page that discusses Syrian refugees. http://www.vox.com/explainers/2015/11/16/9745318/syrian-refugees-us-isis

Looks like the House agrees with you.

http://www.vox.com/2015/11/19/9762054/congress-obama-refugees-syria

I would imagine that once in the US, these people would be watched carefully rather than just dumped in and forgotten about.

YesYNot says

according to the sources I've found...I would imagine

There's your problem. Anybody on the Interwebs can find sources (often driven by advocacy) they want to believe, and then imagine what they want to imagine. For example, a guy from HRW (an organization that I respect) claimed (falsely), "There’s 70,000 refugees coming to the United States every year, and not a single one has been involved in a terrorist incident." His claim had already been proven definitely false, beyond a reasonable doubt, but that didn't stop him from saying it. Thunderlips11 listed examples, and as I said before I've read of more. At some point, you have to engage critical analysis and judgment. Otherwise you end up like bgamall with his conspiracy theories, or partisans/sectarians who live in almost equally unreal parallel universes. Of course bgamall might say the dead and injured are all actors, and the arrests are fake or baseless, but his repeating it doesn't make it so. There have definitely been cases of Muslim refugees engaging in terrorism in the USA, including arrests and fatalities.

Here are two more for you:

"Former Iraqi Terrorists Living in Kentucky Sentenced for Terrorist Activities "

"The men were living in the United States and had been granted refugee status, despite their insurgency activities in Iraq and their role in attacking U.S. troops."

These are actual cases, convicted after being proved beyond a reasonable doubt. The fact that some advocates continue saying it's never happened shows those advocates cannot be trusted: they are either ignorant or lying.

In fact, even your own linked source acknowledges arrests and convictions, which makes me wonder why you stuck by your claim:

YesYNot says

curious2 says

YesYNot says

There have been zero arrests of refugees for terrorism in the US since 2001.

What is your source for that assertion? I have read of three cases, and I don't presume to know of most, let alone all. Furthermore, calling ISIL/Daesh "a positive influence" is not an arrestable offense, even though it suggests an alarming risk level.

http://www.cato.org/blog/syrian-refugees-dont-pose-serious-security-threat

That link says that "three have been convicted of planning terrorist attacks...." You said zero, and cited as your source a document that says three. Thunderlips11 and I have listed at least five, and neither of us claims to know of every example.

YesYNot says

The process was explained in some source or other I posted over the last couple of days. It's not perfect of course. But according to the sources I've found no one who has gone through the process has committed any terrorist act in the US. We let 60,000 to 70,000 refugees into the US every year. http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/refugees-fact-sheet

I'll repost this. Two Refugees were AQ Operatives and busted by the FBI trying to buy arms. What's worse? They claimed to have killed US Soldiers in Iraq. They came under the 2009-system implaced by Obama.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/terrorists-refugee-program-settle-us/story?id=35252500

YesYNot says

I would imagine that once in the US, these people would be watched carefully rather than just dumped in and forgotten about.

Nope. Already lost track.

BATON ROUGE- State leaders blasted the feds Monday for not alerting them about 14 Syrian refugees who were resettled in Louisiana. It's unclear when they arrived.

The majority of them are in the New Orleans area, but one came to Baton Rouge two months ago. WBRZ has learned Catholic Charities helped the refugee who settled in Baton Rouge, but said the immigrant left for another state after a couple of days, and they don't know where the refugee went since they don't track them.

So, the state didn't know they were resettled there. Nobody in authority knows even when they arrived. And the refugee left for another state according to a Charity organization, and nobody knows where the fuck they are, certainly not the Catholic Charities the government dumped them on, since it's not Father Maieye's job.

Just more neolibcon head pats. "Don't you worry about it." If a Neolibcon says Don't Worry, be very worried.

curious2 says

There's the problem. Anybody on the Interwebs can find sources (often driven by advocacy) they want to believe, and then imagine what they want to imagine. I have seen sources claiming that no refugees have been arrested for terrorism, but they're wrong. Thunderlips11 listed examples, and as I said before I've read of more. At some point, you have to engage critical analysis and judgment.

My critical analysis tools allowed me to differentiate between someone who entered through the refugee program (aka a refugee) from the child of someone who entered on a tourist visa (Boston bombers). Do you agree that there is a difference? Do you consider the Boston bombers to be refugees and think that they are proof that the refugee program does not work?

In addition to keeping an open and critical mind, it is important to not be swept up with the fear-driven crowd thinking that big tragic and dramatic events inspire. A lot of what we do as a society is reactionary and illogical. Events like 9/11 and the Paris attack bring that out in spades.

bgamall is on my ignore list, b/c he is a nut job spewing nonsense that is wrong in every sense of the word. Sometimes it's best to just ignore and not engage.

I haven't been selectively ignoring articles that are contrary to what I've posted. I just haven't found any.

Abdulazeez came over when he was 3 years old. Mohamed Osman Mohamud was recruited in the US, and that is how the FBI found him. I don't know how ether came into the country, and I don't know how old Mohamud was. These examples suggest that kids of people from these countries are susceptible to recruitment. These are examples of foreign born kids people turning bad, but it's not clear that they were refugees.

YesYNot says

Do you consider the Boston bombers to be refugees

Reading to respond to your questions, I found this in the Washington Post:

"Correction: An earlier version of this story incorrectly said the Tsarnaevs had received refugee status. The parents of the Tsarnaev brothers reached the United States on tourist visas and applied for asylum. To get asylum, an applicant must meet the definition of a refugee, but unlike a refugee he or she has already reached the United States and is subject to a different application process. After the Tsarnaevs obtained asylee status, they successfully applied for derivative asylee status for their children. The story has been corrected."

I had seen sources calling them refugees, but I can believe they were asylees instead.

YesYNot says

I haven't been selectively ignoring articles that are contrary to what I've posted. I just haven't found any.

The article that you linked to contradicted you.

YesYNot says

These examples suggest that kids of people from these countries are susceptible to recruitment.

Thanks for acknowledging that at least. Under the 14th Amendment, any kids born here are citizens, and surveys show 10% of Muslim Americans support the death penalty for cartoons of Mohammed. I've posted separately about the ongoing machete murders of writers and publishers in Bangladesh, for example. If you want to help the Muslim refugees who claim that they want to return to their homes, then advocate that they should be sheltered nearer to where they live, e.g. Saudi Arabia.

curious2 says

That link says that "three have been convicted of planning terrorist attacks...." You said zero, and cited as your source a document that says three. Thunderlips11 and I have listed at least five, and neither of us claims to know of every example.

Those were convicted for helping terrorism outside of the US. My original quote was based on terrorism in the US. I will admit that there was some serious parsing of terms wherever I got the original quote. Arguing the point with you and Thunderlips has clarified the issue quite a bit for me, and I admit that it is a rational (if overblown) fear.

YesYNot says

it is a rational (if overblown) fear.

I can likewise admit that the leading causes of death in America are heart disease and cancer, and will likely remain so even if we bring in 10k refugees from Syria. The issue of Muslim terrorism, however, is the tip of a dangerous spear. As others have written, Islam differs fundamentally from other religions; it combines the global missionary proseletyizing of late New Testament Christianity with the holy violence of early Old Testament Judaism. A very substantial % of Muslims tend to be Muslim first, all else second. Even in America, half say that a Mohammed cartoon should be a criminal offense, and 10% say it should be a capital offense. I see on the left a zeal for compassion bordering on Christian martyrdom, and a categorical refusal to think through the consequences of policy decisions. It is the "logic" of Christian martyrdom and Obamneycare: the more it costs, in blood and treasure, the more virtuous the believers feel for having sacrificed so much. Surely, they shall be rewarded in the certainty of the resurrection. Meanwhile, those of us who live here on earth have more earthly concerns. You can feel virtuous or whatever for proclaiming your coercive generosity and recycling to atone for your conspicuous consumption, but I would prefer not to have Charlie Hebdo massacres here like those in Bangladesh; even if the % murdered is not large enough to change dramatically the overall mortality statistics, the consequences for the culture (including terror and self-censorship) can be profound.

thunderlips11 says

YesYNot says

I would imagine that once in the US, these people would be watched carefully rather than just dumped in and forgotten about.

Nope. Already lost track.

I'm not convinced that the federal agencies lost track, but think they ought to be looping in state authorities. I would fully support a program whereby refugees are required to check in with handlers. That doesn't seem like a big imposition.

If the government is not using these people to help learn about foreign terrorist recruiters and activities, then they are asleep on the job. It seems like they are surveiling them, though, as they have intercepted a number of these guys.

curious2 says

If you want to help the Muslim refugees who claim that they want to return to their homes, then advocate that they should be sheltered nearer to where they live, e.g. Saudi Arab

I'm not advocating that we take them all. It is just bad form to help create such a boondogle, and then expect everyone else to do the right thing by the people who are legitimately displaced.

YesYNot says

bad form to help create such a boondogle, and then expect everyone else to do the right thing

That's an argument against invading Iraq (which W decided to do and then-Senators Clinton and JFKerry voted to authorize), bombing Libya and Syria (Hillary's war and Kerry's war, respectively, and both on O's watch), all without planning for refugees' need for local shelter. It isn't an argument to bring people to America who reject American democracy. That isn't "the right thing," it's murder. I had a similar conversation recently with someone who said Napoleon had drowned Muslims, as if that excused some number of murders in Paris. See above regarding Christian martyrdom (I update my comments with sources and clarifications). The Californians murdered in Paris were too young to have even voted for W, but they got murdered because somebody thought it was "the right thing," and even their Obamneycare could not save them. The military industrial complex and the medical industrial complex have their mouthpieces working overtime selling wars and pills, and everybody gets conscripted into it, and honestly I don't agree about it being "the right thing;" likewise, perceptions of "bad form" worry me less than other, more practical, concerns.

curious2 says

You can feel all virtuous or whatever proclaiming your coercive generosity, but I would prefer not to have Charlie Hebdo massacres here like those in Bangladesh; even if the % murdered is not large enough to change dramatically the overall mortality statistics, the consequences for the culture (including terror and self-censorship) can be profound.

My views aren't based on a feeling of virtuosity, it's just a difference of opinion. I truly do believe that fear is driving a very reactionary response right now, and it is similar to what happened after 9/11, except on a small scale.

In my mind, overreacting to these terrorists legitimizes them. Killing a few hundred people is sad, but it's nothing. Getting us to go to war in Iraq was huge. The overreaction gives them power that they otherwise couldn't dream of. Krugman had a good post about this on Monday. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/16/opinion/fearing-fear-itself.html?_r=0.

curious2 says

even if the % murdered is not large enough to change dramatically the overall mortality statistics, the consequences for the culture (including terror and self-censorship) can be profound

It sure would be nice if we had leaders who could help put these attacks into perspective, so that we could worry more about real risks and less about overreactions (consequences for the culture).

curious2 says

A very substantial % of Muslims tend to be Muslim first, all else second. Even in America, half say that a Mohammed cartoon should be a criminal offense, and 10% say it should be a capital offense.

These numbers surprise me, but are in line with what I've read of muslim opinion in other western countries. The appropriate response IMO is to say that freedom of speech trumps freedom to not be offended. If I had my way, all religions would die out, but they are too useful for too many people for that to happen.

YesYNot says

Killing a few hundred people is sad, but it's nothing.

I don't agree about it being "nothing", but I do agree it's sad.

As for Krugman, he can't even count honestly the number of tunnels under the Hudson River, and the commercial NY Times publishes his false claims as "opinion" (by which they seem to mean counterfactual advocacy), and I do suspect money changes hands (e.g. related to the tunnel project). They publish advocacy, to (mis)lead in service of a commercial agenda, e.g. Judith Miller and the NY Times supporting the Iraq war.

I suppose the lives lost can seem incidental, even "nothing," if you focus only on the goal ("doing the right thing," selling more wars and pills in the name of "helping" and avoiding "bad form").