patrick.net

anonymous says

That would have been very unusual in 1990 or 2000. It is now common: children, girls and boys, being disrespectful to parents, being disrespectful to one another, being disrespectful to themselves, verbally and otherwise.

Um, I remember 1990. Adults were always saying how disrespectful kids were today back then and how things were different 20 or 30 years ago.

I kind of have to take such claims with a grain of salt given how far back they go.

Maybe parents just don't remember how much of pains in the asses they were when they were kids.

I don't understand Socrates complaining about children "crossing their legs". What is he talking about?

thunderlips11 says

I have never talked about boobs for hours. Not even when I was 12. Nor did any of my friends.

Pretty much every "question" can be answered that way.

I wouldn't consider any of the women in this video to be marriage material.

justme says

I don't understand Socrates complaining about children "crossing their legs". What is he talking about?

You know old people. They have weird pet peeves. I was wondering about that one myself.

AH, the depressed "Activist" who lived in a McMansion by herself that her parents paid for, perpetually unemployed after college.

What the OP complains about is a manifestation of the government decay. IOW the what can government do for me, instead of what can I achieve?

Yeah, and if you make them walk to school, you get arrested:
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/local/story/2016/apr/01/mother-charged-neglect-making-children-walk-s/358210/
Marion County mother charged with neglect for making children walk to school

It's because liberals decided that any form of discipline is abuse, and newborn is a wisest thing in the world whose decisions should never ever be questioned. Liberals also believe that every child is exactly the same and will listen perfectly and obey reason if you just politely ask them. Hell liberals view disagreement as abuse, emotional maturity of a toddler.

Liberals generally can't raise kids worth a shit though too.

FortWayne says

Liberals generally can't raise kids worth a shit though too.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-kids-arent-all-right/article/892517

FortWayne says

It's because liberals decided that any form of discipline is abuse, and newborn is a wisest thing in the world whose decisions should never ever be questioned.

Clearly conservatives define discipline as physically abusing children. Liberals use many forms of discipline that do not involve assaulting and harming children, but these non-violent forms of discipline don't count according to conservatives.

I have two nieces, each from a different sibling. All four parents are liberal and do not use corporeal punishment, i.e. beating children. Both children are healthy, happy, and well-behaved, and when the grow up they will be smarter and more successful than any child of FortWaynes.

You do not need to inflict bodily harm on a child to raise the child. That's just lazy parenting. Such parents should never have been allowed to become parents.

P N Dr Lo R says

FortWayne says

Liberals generally can't raise kids worth a shit though too.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-kids-arent-all-right/article/892517

So FortWayne offers no evidence, and you offer a propaganda piece from a pro-Cruz conservative rag as evidence. That's like offering evidence from a kindergarten rag that Spiderman should be president and cookies are a nutritionally balanced breakfast.

Dan8267 says

Liberals use many forms of discipline that do not involve assaulting and harming children, but these non-violent forms of discipline don't count according to conservatives.

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/remember-when-being-sent-to-your-room-was-a-punishment.452893171/

Dan8267 says

Clearly conservatives define discipline as physically abusing children.

Spanking isn't physical abuse, it's just liberals have very low brain activity which does not let them understand that not every child can be just "talked to" like those nice people in the movies with perfect families where children and parents never do any wrong and every problem is solved in 2 kind sentences from the nicest daddy in the world. You are such a baby Dan.

Dan8267 says

you offer a propaganda piece from a pro-Cruz conservative rag as evidence

There's not a thing wrong with what was said. It would be interesting to know how those three characters turned out and if they're still alive.

P N Dr Lo R says

There's not a thing wrong with what was said.

There is no evidence to support anything that was said in that propaganda piece.

FortWayne says

Spanking isn't physical abuse,

Yes it is, and you are confirming my statement that conservatives define "discipline" to be only physical abuse.

There are many non-violent, non-destructive ways to instill discipline into children. You are just a lazy parent.

This post by PN Dr Lo R is relevant:

Another book he comments on is The Strange Death of Moral Britain by Christie Davies in which Davies explains how up through the middle of the 20th century Britain had one of the most peaceful societies in the world. He gives the example of how in 1954 when far more people owned pistols than in later decades, there were 12 cases of armed robbery in London. By the 1990's, after the imposition of stringent gun control laws, there were well over 1,000 armed robberies in London every year and in the late 1990's, after a total ban on handguns, the numbers went up another 10%. Davies' book also recalls the history of the 19th century Sunday Schools which the British government ran up through the end of World War II and were attended by generations of young Brits, then were phased out. From low crime and social upheaval in the early 50's, from the late 50's on both crime and social and family disintegration exploded in a manner that paralleled our own--massive drug use, single parenthood, housing projects filled with lawlessness and crime, general public rowdiness and drunkness throughout weekends which continue to this day.

indigenous says

He gives the example of how in 1954 when far more people owned pistols than in later decades, there were 12 cases of armed robbery in London. By the 1990's, after the imposition of stringent gun control laws, there were well over 1,000 armed robberies in London every year and in the late 1990's, after a total ban on handguns, the numbers went up another 10%.

And then crime dropped, precisely 20 years after leaded gasoline was phased out.

Notice also that the earlier increase in crime rates also lagged the mass introduction of the automobile by 20 years.

All attempts to ban tetraethyl lead were strongly opposed by conservatives for 50 years.

Dan8267 says

There is no evidence to support anything that was said in that propaganda piece

Just a whole generation of radicals. Who do you think raised all those radicals? Many of them had parents who were members of the old left, whom the New Left despised because they didn't want to transform traditional society but favored government intervention to solve problems. A lot of them were Red Diaper Babies, which did not mean they hemoraged as infants but that they were raised by American communists in the 1930's like David Horowitz and Peter Collier, people who never referred to themselves as communists but as progressives, having nothing to do with the progressives of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. When a particular generation does something pretty much as a whole it's not an exaggeration to say that a majority tended towards certain ways of living (I think this was the era when the terms "lifestyle", or "alternative lifestyle", came into being)--they were as recognizable for their own time as the flappers and sheiks were of the 1920's, but when that era passed so did the genre. However the aim in the late 60's was the elimination of traditional society, to be replaced with a radical one, an effort which is in high gear today by these same people who are now approaching 70. These people started living together and having children outside of marriage at a rate never before seen in our country's history and at the same time started a drug culture that is thoroughly entrenched, and this happened on both sides of the Atlantic. In 1965 Daniel Patrick Moynihan said that if the white race ever approached the percentage of out-of-wedlock births as blacks, which were both in low double digits at the time and seemed bad, it would bode very badly for our country. Fifty years later the figures are 40% and 70%.

I don't think you understand what the word "evidence" means. It does not mean assumptions plucked from your ass.

I was actually referring to this:

indigenous says

Davies' book also recalls the history of the 19th century Sunday Schools which the British government ran up through the end of World War II and were attended by generations of young Brits, then were phased out. From low crime and social upheaval in the early 50's, from the late 50's on both crime and social and family disintegration exploded in a manner that paralleled our own--massive drug use, single parenthood, housing projects filled with lawlessness and crime, general public rowdiness and drunkness throughout weekends which continue to this day.

BTW this is from a retired prison psychiatrist who offers a unique perspective to the pathology of the modern culture.

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}

HydroCabron says

And then crime dropped, precisely 20 years after leaded gasoline was phased out

But lead was first used in gasoline in 1922 and existed in it, as well as in paint, through Britain's most crime-free era up through the late 50's.

Dan8267 says

It does not mean assumptions plucked from your ass

The anger, the anger, there's always the anger.

indigenous says

BTW this is from a retired prison psychiatrist who offers a unique perspective to the pathology of the modern culture.

Wow, his evidence is strong. Hey, if they ran it up to WW2, that means all the kids were born to Sunday-School educated parents who did a bad job raising them.

P N Dr Lo R says

The anger, the anger, there's always the anger.

That's not anger. It's disappointment. Just like what your dad feels every day.

P N Dr Lo R says

HydroCabron says

And then crime dropped, precisely 20 years after leaded gasoline was phased out

But lead was first used in gasoline in 1922 and existed in it, as well as in paint, through Britain's most crime-free era up through the late 50's.

and when did large numbers of cars take to the roads in Britain?

Lead in paint only matters if the paint peels and young kids eat it. It doesn't magically get into the air.

indigenous says

What the OP complains about is a manifestation of the government decay. IOW the what can government do for me, instead of what can I achieve?

Hemorrhoids and sunspots are a manifestation of government decay in your weird world.

bob2356 says

Hemorrhoids and sunspots are a manifestation of government decay in your weird world.

and government is golden in yours

and add to that list, as my great grandson who is 15 and NEVER leaves his room, stays up all night and sleeps till 2 in the afternoon.

He gets a starbucks frappacino everyday, and he is already pushing 3 bills
He gets to vape in his room, oh,but its non nicotine.

When i say why are you making him something to eat at 11 pm to bring to his room i get, oh but he didin't eat dinner, when i say he was invited to eat but ignored you i get, but he didn't eat dinner, you should not feed him so he comes out and eats with the family, oh but he didn't eat dinner.
I don't get it, its beyond logic, the parents were raised correctly, but the generation they laid is Long Gone, oh, and work in a cubicle. he is home schooled, has not friends, only plays games on his phone (and the parents take him to the doctor to find out why he gets car sick, duh). He IS NEVER GOING TO WORK, he has no social skills except to yell at everyone cause he is bored and has nothing to do! Chaulk this one up to disability as soon as he turns 18. he still has a few years to go, by then he should be over 4 bills.

casandra says

and add to that list, as my great grandson who is 15 and NEVER leaves his room,

Sounds horrendous. How come no one can get through to the parents? It goes beyond the dinner issue.

Yah, 3 bills is 300 lbs, my guestimate today is around 260 or higher.

If you try and reason with the parents, the child finds out and it isn't good for you. He has so much control, he can manipulate them into practically banishing you from the house. Oh and did I mention how he is late to every event and his front seat is there waiting for the huge prince cause he can't ride in a back seat, he gets sick if he does.

260 is not large by todays citizens. I have seen some in the 800 lb range. I had a friend who came from China, we were watching tv with super heavy people who were grotesquely over weight. Some around 800 lbs. I said to her, are there any people in china who are that large. She replied. China has 1.3 billion people, there has got to be "one".

many larger than 260. Haven't you been on a high school campus lately? the kids are huge. many are so heavy that their weight pushing on the hips has pushed down so hard the only way they hold them selves up is with their upper thighs pushing against each other down to the knees. I call it "the splay"
kids today are HUGE, not like when i was growing up. and when you see them walking home from school (SLOWLY), many have a sugary looking drink in their hand and the rest are all stopping at the taco bell before they get home. where did we go wrong in this country.

bob2356 says

lead

And I guess that was the cause of the world wide youth revolt of the late 60's?

Dan8267 says

That's not anger

It's anger, albeit expressed in a passive-aggressive fashion. My dad passed away 58 years ago at 59 but was proud of me and would have agreed completely.

Dan8267 says

FortWayne says

Spanking isn't physical abuse,

Yes it is

There are many non-violent, non-destructive ways to instill discipline into children. You are just a lazy parent.

Thank you for proving my point. You liberals are such retards it's too funny.

FortWayne says

Spanking isn't physical abuse,

Yes it is

There are many non-violent, non-destructive ways to instill discipline into children. You are just a lazy parent.

In Sweden, a generation of kids who've never been spanked

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/09/world/sweden-punishment-ban/

"While there are laws against child abuse, it's legal in all 50 states for parents to hit their children, and for schools in 19 states to physically punish kids. About 80% of American parents said they've hit their young children, and about 100,000 kids are paddled in U.S. schools every year, researchers said.

Kids are still hit with hands, belts, switches and paddles, said Elizabeth Gershoff , an associate professor of human development and family sciences at University of Texas, despite research that shows it doesn't model or teach behavior parents are looking for, that it damages trust between parent and children and that it can lead to increased aggression...

...The United States and Somalia are the only two countries that haven't ratified the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, an international treaty that recognizes the human rights of people younger than 18."

Indiana Jones says

In Sweden, a generation of kids who've never been spanked

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/09/world/sweden-punishment-ban/

Sweden is a terrible example since it has been in a downward spiral since the regressives (who may call themselves progressives) took over. The country is fiscally in bad shape due to massive handouts and crime has skyrocketed (mostly due to "refugees"). Pretty much any recent policy enacted by Sweden has failed.

Indiana Jones says

despite research that shows it doesn't model or teach behavior parents are looking for, that it damages trust between parent and children and that it can lead to increased aggression...

There is no such research, just opinion and emotion. In fact the few scientific studies show a "mild" opposite of this claim, that is, conditional spanking as a last resort is superior to pretty much all other known approaches. Like this one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15898303

Of course there are kids that never need it, and on the flip side those that were spanked were more adventurous, bold, and even more aggressive in their personalities to begin with, so they will also carry those traits later in life (which makes drawing conclusions extremely difficult). But equating any instance of a parent spanking their child with child abuse is scientific nonsense.

mell says

Sweden is a terrible example since it has been in a downward spiral since the regressives (who may call themselves progressives) took over. The country is fiscally in bad shape due to massive handouts and crime has skyrocketed (mostly due to "refugees").

What is the world does Sweden's fiscal or immigrant policy have to do with abuse/punishment to children?

mell says

There is no such research, just opinion and emotion.

"Numerous studies have been conducted in recent years to support the theory that physical forms of discipline do more harm than good, said George Holden, a professor of psychology at Southern Methodist University, who has published five books on parenting and child development.
"The line between discipline and abuse is a gray area, and it's also sort of fluid because a parent might begin with using what they consider appropriate or reasonable discipline. But in the course of seconds, it can easily escalate based on a child's reaction or a parent's rage," he said. "It's easy to inadvertently cross the line, wherever it is."

Hurting your child can also harm the parent-child relationship by infusing it with pain and negative emotions, he said. Children who are spanked are also more likely to be aggressive toward others because they don't know any other way to behave.

When physical force is combined with derogatory or emotionally abusive comments, like the ones in the YouTube video, the damage can be even greater, said psychologist Gregory Jantz, author of "When Your Teenager Becomes the Stranger in Your House."

"You're degrading their personhood, attacking them as a person, their character, their worth and value," he said. "Combine that with the anger and the hitting, that's what we call violence, and that's about power and control: one person, through physical force, exerting power and control over the other."

Studies have also found an elevated risk of heart disease related to childhood trauma, said psychologist Melanie Greenberg, who studies the effects of stress and trauma on the mind and body.

"There is evidence that child abuse changes brain function in areas related to processing threat. Chronic stress can lead to imbalance of the autonomic nervous system," she said, referencing the Adverse Childhood Experiences Study, a collaboration between the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and Kaiser Permanente.

Such an imbalance can distort one's fight-or-flight perception, causing a tendency to overreact or magnify perceived threats, she said."

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/07/living/effects-of-physical-discipline/index.html

mell says

In fact the few scientific studies show a "mild" opposite of this claim, that is, conditional spanking as a last resort is superior to pretty much all other known approaches. Like this one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15898303

Your study you cite is from 2005. Here is a more recent nih study in 2013, found on the same page:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24019558

Abstract: This study examined separate and combined maternal and paternal use of spanking with children at age 3 and children's subsequent aggressive behavior at age 5. The sample was derived from a birth cohort study and included families (n = 923) in which both parents lived with the child at age 3. In this sample, 44% of 3-year-olds were spanked 2 times or more in the past month by either parent or both parents. In separate analyses, being spanked more than twice in the prior month at age 3, by either mother or father, was associated with increased child aggression at 5 years. In combined analyses, there was a dose-response association; the greatest risk for child aggression was reported when both parents spanked more than twice in the prior month (adjusted odds ratio: 2.01; [confidence interval: 1.03-3.94]). Violence prevention initiatives should target and engage mothers and fathers in anticipatory guidance efforts aimed at increasing the use of effective and non-aggressive child discipline techniques and reducing the use of spanking.

Clearly, we need the bottom portion of the population to spank the shit out of their children, so that they can grow up to be killer soldiers. The other half should be given non violent discipline with consistent rules, so that they are free to develop the executive function needed for stem, health care, and business.

Indiana Jones says

Such an imbalance can distort one's fight-or-flight perception, causing a tendency to overreact or magnify perceived threats, she said."

The fight-or-flight perception is going missing in most kids, they may be whiny or entitled, but they don't know what to do when they are being attacked in real life or when to shut up when facing a strong, potential authority. Exactly because they are being raised in a completely imaginary helicopter-parented world without dangers or physical violence. They will grow up entirely lacking any street smarts if they have not experienced the causality between bad behavior towards a stronger human being and the possibility of aggressive, even violent reactions, or even being in the wrong place at the wrong time. A world without violence is fantasy-land and can only be realized in a setting where everybody is drugged daily similar to the movie equilibrium.

Indiana Jones says

In this sample, 44% of 3-year-olds were spanked 2 times or more in the past month by either parent or both parents. In separate analyses, being spanked more than twice in the prior month at age 3, by either mother or father, was associated with increased child aggression at 5 years. In combined analyses, there was a dose-response association; the greatest risk for child aggression was reported when both parents spanked more than twice in the prior month (adjusted odds ratio: 2.01; [confidence interval: 1.03-3.94]).

The study I cited was measuring the success of the outcome which is a clearly measurable objective. In the study referenced above they do not take into account the character of the children in the first place. If we can agree that the majority of parents are likely NOT child abusers, then the parents in their study who were spanking their kids likely did so because the kids had a more aggressive nature to begin with. Btw. there is not much wrong with being aggressive or have alpha traits in moderation as these traits will make your kids more successful later in life. Kids (esp. boys) regularly get into fights at the playground and it is their part of a natural development.

Ironman says

Using the term "spanking" is too generic... Sometimes it takes a little bit of physical "persuasion" to go along with the verbal request to get a kid to act, but it's not an actual spanking. It could be leading them by their arms, a "wake up" tap to the head or a kick in the rear to get the point across that the parent means business! Sometimes a complete change of demeanor or rapid increase in loudness of speech, which is out of the norm, can wake them up.

Sure, in fact the earlier kids understand those consequences, the less you need to apply any force later in life as their instincts will be sharpened. I would argue that in the example of a 10 year old telling their mom to shut up the parents missed the boat somewhere. And you can be sure that somebody that unaware of authority will get their ass handed to them sooner or later by somebody else if the parents fail to act swiftly, and nobody wants to see their kids fail in their career, getting roughed up badly or even see their life endangered just because they are too stupid to realize when to keep their mouth shut.