patrick.net

Where has regulation and taxes ever served as a method of harm reduction?

You're in fucking lala land

Im going to do, something i dont often like to do, and thats give out a diagnosis over the internet. You are suffering of malnutrition. It is starving your brain of vital nutrients, and making you stupid. Put down the red bull and go eat an avacado.

I would like to pay less for your medical bills if you are a heavy marijuana user.

You dont pay anything for medical bills that dont exist. I am the one paying far too much for your medical bills!

You marijuana prohibitionists live in constant fear of a phantom. And the same idiots, who blame everything on republicans, voted for republican legislation that forces me to pay, for your ignorance and malnutrition. This is insanity

errc says

Where has regulation and taxes ever served as a method of harm reduction?

In the US the taxes collected go into general state funds which are used in healthcare and all sorts of things. You are right, the taxes not only reduce use and ill effects of alcohol and cigarettes, the money gathered contributes to the overall state budget for a whole host of other things. Sadly, current taxes on both in California do not outweigh costs of the damage done.

http://www.tax-rates.org/california/excise-tax

errc says

I am the one paying far too much for your medical bills!

You marijuana prohibitionists live in constant fear of a phantom. And the same idiots, who blame everything on republicans, voted for republican legislation that forces me to pay, for your ignorance and malnutrition. This is insanity

How do you know anything about my health or consumption habits? Sorry if I wrongly assumed you were a marijuana user. You're right, I should have been more generic and stated that I don't want to pay for increased health care associated with prevalent marijuana use.

Are you ok over there? Can you continue a civil debate or do you need a little break?

errc says

Are you protecting children from the harms of too much apple juice? Too many pb&j's? Then fuck off. Science has proven that (excess) sugar consumption is very harmful. Where are all the demands to protect young, developing minds, from the known dangers of the most prominent gateway drug, sugar?

Soda taxes were passed in Berkley. Mexico has really severe problems with coke/pepsi consumption and their soda tax is being looked at as a potential example to follow here in the US. Europe is already implementing many more things in this vein (sugar/fat/soda taxes).

Marijuana isn't as acceptable in society as sugar and soda. The perceived harms are higher, rightly or wrongly so.

errc says

You dont pay anything for medical bills that dont exist.

Dude, you're all right, but your unceasing conviction that you never have to get sick and die if you eat right is, well, pretty much wrong.

Diet is a contributing, but far from determinant factor in all sorts of diseases, and it won't save you.

Or do you believe that your super-special non-government-pyramid eating habits will allow you to recover from fatal car accidents?

uana isn't as acceptable in society as sugar and soda. The perceived harms are higher, rightly or wrongly so.

Gross. Reading your tripe leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'd wash it away with toothpaste, but as we all know, using toothpaste is worse than brushing with no toothpaste at all. I'd like to cleanse my ears of your filth, but everyone knows you're never to put q-tips in your ears. You chapped my ass, so i could use some baby powder, but that would kill me.

So i guess you're only socially acceptable solutions are a stiff drink, a pack of cigarettes, and some ice cream. You know, the socially acceptable vices that you accept, so long as they are taxed.

I mean, i could simply smoke a joint, and be over it. But you'd force me to pay for the police to destroy me, a private prison to house me, and you'd remove me from the tax base. So i couldn't contribute to the incredible costs of enforcing marijuana prohibition.

At least you can sleep well, as an ignorant Clonton voter!

o recover from fatal car accidents?

There is no recovering from fatality. However, i know first hand that when a drunk driver almost kills you, in a vehicle accident, that your automobile insurance is first in line to pay the medical bills. Not my worthless health insurance.

And stop putting words in my mouth. I never claimed to be able to escape death. What i have argued many times, is that private health insurance is a scam. Which it is. You're welcome to explain why that is false, but I'm tipping you dont have a counter, so you'll resort to personal attacks.

Pretty much all violent crime stems from alcohol. If the alcohol made me do it, hasnt worked as a defense, why would marijuana be different?

You's have brains, try using them for once

errc says

So i guess you're only socially acceptable solutions are a stiff drink, a pack of cigarettes, and some ice cream. You know, the socially acceptable vices that you accept, so long as they are taxed.

Yes, my stance is I'm for legalization with regulation and taxes. You know, one of those West Coast liberal types.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/179195/majority-continues-support-pot-legalization.aspx?g_source=marijuana&g_medium=search&g_campaign=tiles

Based on Gallup, you are like a super progressive Bernie supporter?

errc says

You chapped my ass

At-least I used all natural lube though, right?

errc says

And stop putting words in my mouth ... so you'll resort to personal attacks.

:) That got me to laugh.

While my tone is terse, and my choice of words is brash, i won't apologize for the truth; no matter how much the truth hurts people so entangled in falsehoods.

errc says

I'd wash it away with toothpaste, but as we all know, using toothpaste is worse than brushing with no toothpaste at all.... You chapped my ass, so i could use some baby powder, but that would kill me.

Note to self... Add to errc's dossier... Does NOT have minty fresh breath... May have ovaries.

;)

Ironman says

I wonder if his breath smells like his ass???

Inhalation, of course! That would explain the concern of talc-induced cancer.

Insuffocation is the word you're searching for

If you're breaking the girls out for Trump, im tipping they've witnessed freedom in trade for a taste of sweet perico. Insuffocado perico para libertidad!

Rew says

bob2356 says

Other countries have legalized or decriminalized without big social programs other than just regular addiction treatment that existed already and the use rates just don't change much.

The trick is they already had well funded programs in place and they expanded on them in preparation for the impact legalization would have. For a nation our size we spend something like a paltry 28 billion on addiction treatment, and likely because of that, we have some of the highest total drug use and addiction rates in the world (if not the highest by sheer population affected/drug users). As far as innovative or aggressive, Europe in general, hands down blows away what we have for drug abuse treatment.

Columbia, Argentina, Uruguay,Brazil, Ecuador, Jamaica, Mexico, Peru, Ukraine, Bangladesh, Iran, Costa RIca, Greenland, North Korea already had well funded addiction programs in place and expanded them in preparation for decriminalization/legalization? Wow, who knew that? Learn something new every day. You are a virtual fountain of knowledge that absolutely no one else has.

bob2356 says

Columbia, Argentina, Uruguay,Brazil, Ecuador, Jamaica, Mexico, Peru, Ukraine, Bangladesh, Iran, Costa RIca, Greenland, North Korea already had well funded addiction programs in place and expanded them in preparation for decriminalization/legalization? Wow, who knew that? Learn something new every day. You are a virtual fountain of knowledge that absolutely no one else has.

For clarity, I was referring to Europe, as in the previous context of our discussion. But, you believe these countries listed are examples of drug policy we should follow? Aren't these countries too culturally, politically, and economically different from the US to be a close enough comparison of what policy implementation effects would be for the US? I'm for stealing good ideas from wherever (well ok, maybe not North Korea ... sheer principal ...ha!), but with big group dynamics, like nation states, closer nation models have always seemed better comparisons to me.

Greenland, is definitely European, but might want to check that one with regards to legality. I'm pretty sure it is illegal for use, sale, and cultivation, unless something has recently changed.

bob2356 says

Learn something new every day.

I try to as well. It requires a greater degree of humility and openness to change than most people seem to exhibit/display, on the internet at-least. Face to face people are far more careful and have better conversations. There is more respect given in the dialogue. Funnily enough, online in the rare instances I have seen people conceded a point it is the credibility of that person that skyrockets in my mind, and not the "winner".

I don't know though. Your milage may vary.

Did Marijuana caused accidents double? or did the number of people using marijuana and getting in accidents double?

These are not the same questions. so to illustrate with a thought experiment:

Suppose it was illegal to wear a red shirt. and that 5 people, either unaware of this, or flaunting the law were killed while driving wearing red shirts.

Then, later, the red shirt law is repealed, and we find that 200 people died while driving wearing red shirts.

The headline would have read, Deaths caused by driving while wearing red shirts have increased by 40 fold, or 3900%

Would that prove how dangerous wearing red shirts is?

I have to say, taking a Prob/Stat class with Roberto could be fun.
That said, we need more treatment options. I hate to see Rew and bob2356 going at each other. I'll only vote for decriminalization if treatment is part of the package. Has anybody looked at the CA props that may end up on the November ballot. I know one has monies for funding treatment options, but, as with any big pot of money, also diverts taxes to other interests/projects.
And the obligatory, Dude, you just ran over a bicyclist...
Haynes admitted to smoking marijuana at the Berkeley Marina at 3:30 p.m., appeared high to police on the scene and “performed poorly” on a sobriety test conducted by a BPD officer after the crash. Police found marijuana and drug paraphernalia in the car, which also smelled strongly of burnt pot. Also found in the vehicle were numerous empty plastic “BPG House Blend” canisters.
Haynes — who is from Berkeley but lived in Sunnyvale as of February — told police he had stopped for the red light at Fulton and Bancroft right before the crash. When the light turned green, according to the police report, he drove forward and “he then felt ‘bumps’ from the front area of his vehicle. He said he did not know what the bumps were. He said he tried to stop but the vehicle began … going into a skid.”

Rew says

For clarity, I was referring to Europe, as in the previous context of our discussion. But, you believe these countries listed are examples of drug policy we should follow? Aren't these countries too culturally, politically, and economically different from the US to be a close enough comparison of what policy implementation effects would be for the US?

My conversations were about countries, not europe. You keep saying legalizing or decriminalizing will be the end of the world and everyone keeps pointing out wasn't the end of the world anywhere else. You are aware that drugs were perfectly legal for 150 years and the republic didn't fail weren't you?

The societal costs of legalization can't be anywhere near the disaster the war on drugs has been. Why don't you open your eyes and look at the huge societal costs of the war on drugs. Prohibition created organized crime, the war on drugs turned organized crime into a gigantic multinational phenomenon with almost unlimited power and money. Over 50 billion a year spent on the drug war by the US alone. US intervention and policies have been a disaster in latin america. Our policy and strategies have empowered organized criminals, corrupted governments, stimulated violence, assaulted the environment and created tens of thousands of refugees all across latin america. In the US police forces have been militarized across the country and are no longer trusted by the citizens. Huge swaths of the cites are no go zones. A large number of civil rights have been stripped away. Anything you own can be taken away on the say so of a cop with no recourse at all. You then have to prove you weren't committing a crime to get it back. Minorities are marginalized and distrusted. Blacks are arrested up to 50 times more for drugs even though usage rates are the same as whites. Half a million people are in prison on drug charges. A large percentage of minorities are now ex cons. A single drug offence, including marijuana possession, means you cannot get education financial aid, public housing, food stamps, etc.. Huge numbers of people have to submit to urine testing without cause. This is somehow better than going back to legal drugs or at least legal pot? I don't think so. Where is your concern for the irreparable societal damage done by the war on drugs?